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Vallen Chaos Valiant · 2008-04-13, 20:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Juvyniled

At that very instant, he did in fact make a deal. But are you telling me that you know for a fact that he and the emperor had prepared this in ADVANCE? I.E., prior to the current situation?

It's not impossible, as V.V. could have acted as a messenger and formed the communication link between these two people and gave Suzaku the offer.

I doubt it though. But it could have happened.

KrimzonStriker · 2008-04-13, 20:40

What does it matter if he did it then or before? He cut a deal, not get promoted regularly without his input. So in this instance between the cave and the throne room he came up with a way to get ahead.

Vallen Chaos Valiant · 2008-04-13, 20:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by KrimzonStriker

What does it matter if he did it then or before? He cut a deal, not get promoted regularly without his input. So in this instance between the cave and the throne room he came up with a way to get ahead.

Indeed, you are right that it doesn't matter how the deal was set up. It was done, and now the only thing that matters is what Suzaku is going to do with his position.

From past patterns, no much. Follow orders, kill people, die in battle.

Juvyniled · 2008-04-13, 20:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

It's not impossible, as V.V. could have acted as a messenger and formed the communication link between these two people and gave Suzaku the offer.

I doubt it though. But it could have happened.

I will not deny it and claim that it is impossible, but if we consider how the Emperor treated his son initially, it is almost the equivalent of a parent telling their child that they are "dead to them." Lelouch could have been simply whacked, and if we consider as well that Suzaku is a simple/narrow-minded individual, he would aim completely at killing Lelouch more than anything.

I won't rule out the possibility of a more complex and sinister planning that the Emperor could have in store for Lelouch, but I'd have to believe at this point that Lelouch is better off dead in the Emperor's scheme of things.

Quote:

Originally Posted by KrimzonStriker

What does it matter if he did it then or before? He cut a deal, not get promoted regularly without his input. So in this instance between the cave and the throne room he came up with a way to get ahead.

I'm raising the issue because you are clear on convicting Suzaku as plain evil. While he is crooked and vicious at times, he does not embody the evil of the Emperor. So in this case, my bringing up the point on whether capturing Lelouch was part of a prior agreement is an attempt to determine motive. Your primary belief is that Suzaku simply wants an advancement, yet you are basing that on simply what you see and not what you know of his innermost thoughts. If we all knew what Suzaku was thinking, there would be no need for a discussion. But the ambiguity is there.

KrimzonStriker · 2008-04-13, 21:04

I didn't say he was evil, I'm saying he's an ass, which is what I think he is based upon his actions and motivations.

Dann of Thursday · 2008-04-13, 21:06

The character in this show that comes closest to being evil would be the Emperor and even that can seem somewhat ambiguous depending on how you look at it.

Vallen Chaos Valiant · 2008-04-13, 21:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dann of Thursday

The character in this show that comes closest to being evil would be the Emperor and even that can seem somewhat ambiguous depending on how you look at it.

And being evil doesn't actually prevent someone from being popular as a character. We all know Emperor Wakamoto is probably the most evil of them all, but that doesn't stop us from enjoying his time on screen. The dude is just too cool sometimes.

Dann of Thursday · 2008-04-13, 21:11

I love any scene involving the Emperor. Wakamoto's voice is just fun to listen to since he can be just as dramatic as Fukuyama makes Lelouch sound.

KrimzonStriker · 2008-04-13, 21:12

Doesn't mean I don't think the Emperor is an ass as well, even if I do think he's cool >_>

squaresphere · 2008-04-13, 21:36

When i stop and think about it, being a knight of the round was probably the only way Suzaku could have retained his position in the military. Being that he's a number plus he's a failed knight (his sponsor is dead :P) his position post the rebellion would have been diminished. There was tons of data already proving the prototype Lancelot was a success. So the trials would have been called and where would that leave Suzaku who's "official" role is test pilot.

Also I don't think Suzaku's trying to fix the Empire any more. If anything he's just trying to "live" as commanded

Blue_Mercy · 2008-04-13, 21:40

I'd be lying if I said that Suzaku didn't piss me off this episode, spouting his change from within crap again, while using cowardly methods which he mocked Lelouch for is what we have come to expect from a hypocrite, but it was either kill Lelouch or use him and if he's dead we can't exactly see revenge on Suzaku can we?

KrimzonStriker · 2008-04-13, 21:51

Oh I can see revenge in this form, taking everything away from Lelouch and forcing him to live a lie once again... >_>

scifijimmy · 2008-04-13, 22:09

Suzaku still admits to attempting to fix Britannia from within in the flashback. Wondering why he wouldn't be still attempting it. Did he plan on killing Lelouch after the capture of C.C., and why would he let The Emperor kill her since he views her as viably savable from Lelouch's "dark schemes."

Onizuka-GTO · 2008-04-13, 22:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by scifijimmy

Suzaku still admits to attempting to fix Britannia from within in the flashback. Wondering why he wouldn't be still attempting it. Did he plan on killing Lelouch after the capture of C.C., and why would he let The Emperor kill her since he views her as viably savable from Lelouch's "dark schemes."

he's a hypocrite

scifijimmy · 2008-04-13, 22:46

agreed, Suzaku's probably the anithesis of Lelouch in every way.

metronome · 2008-04-13, 23:36

well, just remember, collaborator/"dog" and rebel/"terrorist" is the antithesis to each other, the only thing that's same about them is their target, fixing the world or something like that.

if the collaborator and the rebel can cooperate, they will win the war. but well, most of the time, the chance is small.

Voduar · 2008-04-14, 01:13

Perhaps bringing the absolute proof of my oddity, I actually find the new Suzaku less annoying. Now he's just a sociopath with incredible piloting skills, going towards some goal that seems to be both nonspecific and possibly unattainable. This, I can understand. While he's still rather despicable, somehow he seems far less brain dead. Mind you, that is reading quite a bit from what amounts to a rather small bit of screen time, so he may return to his foolish ways, but he hopefully won't.

Btw, I really feel the Vader comparison at this particular moment, though that could be the entire lapdoggishness of this particular episode. It is worth noting that Vader intended to eventually betray the Emperor all along, it just so happened that the right moment came when his son was about, and it wound up killing him in the process. So, time shall tell, perhaps Suzaku will actually accomplish a part of his goal.

To note, while it is a weak comparison atm, you could also stretch the current situation a bit to compare Suzaku to Roy Mustang, with this hope of advancing to the top to change things from within. I am certainly not claiming the same situation, or that Suzaku has even thought that far ahead, but if you want the non-evil option, it is not yet disproven. Though he would really need some solid backup for that to work, and this series is not about him enough to let that happen.

Jeffry2009 · 2008-04-14, 01:19

Suzaku has Become Harry Osborn (from spiderman 3) i mean he should have mask like zero did.

evil|plushie · 2008-04-14, 01:29

Suzakus will probably a lot less annoying this season. Provided he doesn't preach as much.

And what's with the Darth Vader comparisons? Vader is way too cool to be compared to Suzaku. Vader intended to betray the Emperor to become the new Emperor, while Suzaku just wants to change the system. Huuuge difference there.

Voduar · 2008-04-14, 01:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by evil|plushie

Suzakus will probably a lot less annoying this season. Provided he doesn't preach as much.

And what's with the Darth Vader comparisons? Vader is way too cool to be compared to Suzaku. Vader intended to betray the Emperor to become the new Emperor, while Suzaku just wants to change the system. Huuuge difference there.

Honestly? Not so much on that last part. Its a reasonable proposition, and he even acts a bit like Vader did in the movies. To be fair, he's much more comparable to whiny prequel Anakin rather than the kickass cyborg voiced by James Earl Jones, but there is still a bit of a comparison, not the least of which the hypocrisy and general dumbness.

A bit of Suzaku's final character will be determined by the length of CG. I suspect they want to milk more than just this season out of this, so he could very well be slated to make a power grab in R4 or something else equally far off. Note that I don't say he will succeed, or that he is the equal of a Dark Lord of the Sith,

2008-04-13, 21:06	Link #166
Dann of Thursday WHERE'S...MY...COW???? Join Date: Dec 2007 Age: 33	The character in this show that comes closest to being evil would be the Emperor and even that can seem somewhat ambiguous depending on how you look at it. __________________ By the pricking of my thumbs, something wicked this way comes. "Nearly all men can stand adversity, if you want to test a man's character give him power." - Abraham Lincoln

2008-04-13, 21:11	Link #168
Dann of Thursday WHERE'S...MY...COW???? Join Date: Dec 2007 Age: 33	I love any scene involving the Emperor. Wakamoto's voice is just fun to listen to since he can be just as dramatic as Fukuyama makes Lelouch sound. __________________ By the pricking of my thumbs, something wicked this way comes. "Nearly all men can stand adversity, if you want to test a man's character give him power." - Abraham Lincoln

2008-04-14, 01:29	Link #179
evil\|plushie The Last Frontier Join Date: Apr 2004	Suzakus will probably a lot less annoying this season. Provided he doesn't preach as much. And what's with the Darth Vader comparisons? Vader is way too cool to be compared to Suzaku. Vader intended to betray the Emperor to become the new Emperor, while Suzaku just wants to change the system. Huuuge difference there. __________________ God is on the side with the biggest cannon. http://sining83.blogspot.com

2008-04-13, 20:40	Link #162
KrimzonStriker Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2008	What does it matter if he did it then or before? He cut a deal, not get promoted regularly without his input. So in this instance between the cave and the throne room he came up with a way to get ahead.

2008-04-13, 21:04	Link #165
KrimzonStriker Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2008	I didn't say he was evil, I'm saying he's an ass, which is what I think he is based upon his actions and motivations.

2008-04-13, 21:12	Link #169
KrimzonStriker Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2008	Doesn't mean I don't think the Emperor is an ass as well, even if I do think he's cool >_>

2008-04-13, 21:36	Link #170
squaresphere Macross Lifer! Join Date: Jan 2008	When i stop and think about it, being a knight of the round was probably the only way Suzaku could have retained his position in the military. Being that he's a number plus he's a failed knight (his sponsor is dead :P) his position post the rebellion would have been diminished. There was tons of data already proving the prototype Lancelot was a success. So the trials would have been called and where would that leave Suzaku who's "official" role is test pilot. Also I don't think Suzaku's trying to fix the Empire any more. If anything he's just trying to "live" as commanded

2008-04-13, 21:40	Link #171
Blue_Mercy Veteran Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Blue Raider Nation Age: 38	I'd be lying if I said that Suzaku didn't piss me off this episode, spouting his change from within crap again, while using cowardly methods which he mocked Lelouch for is what we have come to expect from a hypocrite, but it was either kill Lelouch or use him and if he's dead we can't exactly see revenge on Suzaku can we?

2008-04-13, 21:51	Link #172
KrimzonStriker Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2008	Oh I can see revenge in this form, taking everything away from Lelouch and forcing him to live a lie once again... >_>

2008-04-13, 22:09	Link #173
scifijimmy Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: desert of Alabasta	Suzaku still admits to attempting to fix Britannia from within in the flashback. Wondering why he wouldn't be still attempting it. Did he plan on killing Lelouch after the capture of C.C., and why would he let The Emperor kill her since he views her as viably savable from Lelouch's "dark schemes."

2008-04-13, 22:46	Link #175
scifijimmy Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: desert of Alabasta	agreed, Suzaku's probably the anithesis of Lelouch in every way.

2008-04-13, 23:36	Link #176
metronome Mad Loli Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: FraudPayments.com	well, just remember, collaborator/"dog" and rebel/"terrorist" is the antithesis to each other, the only thing that's same about them is their target, fixing the world or something like that. if the collaborator and the rebel can cooperate, they will win the war. but well, most of the time, the chance is small.

2008-04-14, 01:13	Link #177
Voduar Member Join Date: Jan 2008	Perhaps bringing the absolute proof of my oddity, I actually find the new Suzaku less annoying. Now he's just a sociopath with incredible piloting skills, going towards some goal that seems to be both nonspecific and possibly unattainable. This, I can understand. While he's still rather despicable, somehow he seems far less brain dead. Mind you, that is reading quite a bit from what amounts to a rather small bit of screen time, so he may return to his foolish ways, but he hopefully won't. Btw, I really feel the Vader comparison at this particular moment, though that could be the entire lapdoggishness of this particular episode. It is worth noting that Vader intended to eventually betray the Emperor all along, it just so happened that the right moment came when his son was about, and it wound up killing him in the process. So, time shall tell, perhaps Suzaku will actually accomplish a part of his goal. To note, while it is a weak comparison atm, you could also stretch the current situation a bit to compare Suzaku to Roy Mustang, with this hope of advancing to the top to change things from within. I am certainly not claiming the same situation, or that Suzaku has even thought that far ahead, but if you want the non-evil option, it is not yet disproven. Though he would really need some solid backup for that to work, and this series is not about him enough to let that happen.

2008-04-14, 01:19	Link #178
Jeffry2009 Banned Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia Age: 37	Suzaku has Become Harry Osborn (from spiderman 3) i mean he should have mask like zero did.