[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 6 Dawn of the golden witch

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

And of course Battler, who has the power to say in red the location of every people, doesn't notice that Kanon is free to help him

You need to consider that Battler knows that there are only 17 people in total, and he knows the location of every people. So if Kanon left the room as Erika and then the Erika ball passed on someone else Battler would know that Kanon is free

The thing is, I don't think "having the power to say Kanon's location in red" necessarily translates to "knowing Kanon's exact location". Instead, there was a range of places that Battler thought Kanon "could be" for the purposes of his story, and he was mistaken about the size of that range.

It was shown in this episode is that red text doesn't necessarily reflect a pre-existing truth, but can establish a truth at the moment it's spoken. That's why when Erika first arrived at the guest room, he had the option of saying Battler is on the bed or Battler is not on the bed. Actually, if it were only possible to state pre-existing truths in red, then logic errors wouldn't even exist.

The game master can have an idea about how he wants to tell the story beforehand, but he's free to change it at any time within the bounds of the witch's darkness, the parts of the game board that haven't been specified. Based on how Battler was required to think up a solution to his logic error himself, it also seems that it's up to the game master to keep track of what the witch's darkness will allow, and that its extent is based entirely on the tricks that he can come up with.

So that means first of all that Kanon doesn't have a fixed location until Battler outright specifies it in red (we already saw that the locations of the five first twilight victims were unspecified when Battler tried to use them to rescue himself). Second, before Battler fixes that location, it's up to him to figure out what locations are possible. At the time of the logic error, he thought Kanon was sealed inside the cousins' room, so he didn't consider a rescue by him to be a possibility.

[Jan-Poo]

That's exactly what I think, but that works with the shkannon theory not with the one you mentioned, because if the "Erika" who sealed the rooms was Kanon then his position wasn't a cat box anymore, he was definitely outside the rooms and there was no way to change it back.

Unless you claim that Battler is in direct control of the Erika ball and he can switch it as he pleases, but that's to fucked up to consider for me since we know that Erika's actions are totally outside Battler's supervision.

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

That's exactly what I think, but that works with the shkannon theory not with the one you mentioned, because if the "Erika" who sealed the rooms was Kanon then his position wasn't a cat box anymore, he was definitely outside the rooms and there was no way to change it back.

Unless you claim that Battler is in direct control of the Erika ball and he can switch it as he pleases, but that's to fucked up to consider for me since we know that Erika's actions are totally outside Battler's supervision.

But the "Erika" who sealed the room wasn't necessarily Kanon up until the moment Beato resolved the logic error; she could have been any other person from that room. Battler didn't know about Erika's true nature at that time anyway, so he couldn't factor that information into his view of the board.

Another, possibly more consistent way to interpret it is to say that Erika "could possibly have been" a real person all the way up until the time of the logic error. Then Beato found a way to reinterpret both Episode 5 and Episode 6 that essentially changed Erika from a human piece to a fantasy piece without causing a contradiction.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

Another, possibly more consistent way to interpret it is to say that Erika "could possibly have been" a real person all the way up until the time of the logic error. Then Beato found a way to reinterpret both Episode 5 and Episode 6 that essentially changed Erika from a human piece to a fantasy piece without causing a contradiction.

You're suggesting Beatrice resolved the logic error by erasing Erika from the story?

Damn, I think I may have underestimated ep6 Beato.

[ameskitty]

Originally Posted by Renall

You're suggesting Beatrice resolved the logic error by erasing Erika from the story?

Damn, I think I may have underestimated ep6 Beato.

Hey, if she's got the gameboard seat back (or at least a puppet who'll listen to her/Batora) after she's had it stolen and there was no red created preventing her actions, she can do whatever the hell she wants with it (well this technically refers to her "mother" but they kind of merged anyways). And if I were her I wouldn't blame her for starting by knocking off the extra piece. It's pretty badass, no doubt .

...hoo, boy, this all seems like a lot to swallow, but then again Erika has always felt like a tacky add-on and this developing theory kind of satisfies that annoying feeling. I'll still be surprised if it's true, but pleasantly so. Sh/kanon have backstory on the island. Erika doesn't have any place on it.

[Ronove]

Hmm... just for laughs, I decided to make Shannon's Troll-Face since many are suspecting the culprit is most likely Shannon/Jessica.

Here you go; edited off Beato's face:

Spoiler for Shannon's Troll Face!:

[Raiza Sunozaki]

Originally Posted by Renall

You're suggesting Beatrice resolved the logic error by erasing Erika from the story?

Damn, I think I may have underestimated ep6 Beato.

Well, it may not be the same Beato, but considering how much of a bitch Erika was to Beato in the previous game, I say it would be completely justified. Then again, I loathe Erika, so anything bad that happens to her is my enjoyment.

[Jan-Poo]

But Beatrice shouldn't even have any glimpse of GM authority. Did you forget the ura party of EP5? Why the siesta couldn't attack Battler at all? Because of Battler's IFF that identified him as the GM. However the siesta in EP6 do not seem to have that problem with Beatrice ergo Beatrice is NOT the gamemaster and the only thing she did was using her own piece.

he...

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

But Beatrice shouldn't even have any glimpse of GM authority. Did you forget the ura party of EP5? Why the siesta couldn't attack Battler at all? Because of Battler's IFF that identified him as the GM. However the siesta in EP6 do not seem to have that problem with Beatrice ergo Beatrice is NOT the gamemaster and the only thing she did was using her own piece.

I thought the critical element for being attackable was whether the person was the "lord of the territory" or not. Beato gave Battler her ring before she died in Episode 5, so he was designated the lord and couldn't be attacked. In Episode 6, that ring was in Erika's possession, so Beato was fair game.

In any case, Beato had at least enough control over the board to refine Battler's guest room. For instance, she was able to place restrictions on all of the people in the neighboring room (at the time Battler was rescued, the only one who entered the guest room was Kanon).

[Ronove]

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

I thought the critical element for being attackable was whether the person was the "lord of the territory" or not. Beato gave Battler her ring before she died in Episode 5, so he was designated the lord and couldn't be attacked. In Episode 6, that ring was in Erika's possession, so Beato was fair game.

In any case, Beato had at least enough control over the board to refine Battler's guest room. For instance, she was able to place restrictions on all of the people in the neighboring room (at the time Battler was rescued, the only one who entered the guest room was Kanon).

Alright, for a new spin on perspective, I got a few questions and speculations:

By the end of EP5, Battler has realized the truth. Based on the red truths, we absolutely know Natsushi is not the culprit.

In EP6, we experience the new Demons, which may represent Shannon and Kanon. Does this mean Shannon and Kanon are duel culprits that manipulated their loved ones to kill, using the epitaph and witch rumor as a hidden item?

Not only that, at EP1, Natsushi stated that she has sensed "Beatrice's" prescence since the very start, probably refering to Shannon, right before her death.

Also, isn't it possible that Shannon pushed that servant off the stairs a while back? I'm really focusing on Shannon as the culprit right now . . .

Spoiler for MY TrollShannon:

[Sir Andy Richter]

<_<

Am I the only one who thinks Battler is Kinzo?

[LyricalAura]

Since there were some requests, here's my colored text list for Episode 6. There were a lot of repetition requests and definition checks this time around, so I've included those along with the responses.

Spoiler for Colored text for Episode 6:

Pre-Game Statements

Feather: That Beatrice will never revive again.

Beato: I was born for Father’s sake.

Erika vs. Candy Magic

Erika: There is a possibility that you’re making the entire story up!!

Maria: This is a true story!!

Erika: The punchline isn’t some sleight of hand using a trick table or cup, right?

Maria: There was no such trick!! It was a normal table and cup!!

Erika: Didn’t I just lift the cup and toss the candy in while your eyes were closed!? This is magic? It’s just a third-rate sleight of hand!!!

Erika: Your so-called candy magic is just sleight of hand!! A simple trick that your false witch Beatrice showed you and pretended was magic!!

Erika: Everything you’re convinced is magic is nothing more than sleight of hand that you haven’t caught on to!! There’s no way it was magic, there’s no way it could exiiiiiiiist!!!

Sakutarou: Y-You may have used sleight of hand to put candy in this cup, Erika, but that doesn’t prove that Beato’s magic was sleight of hand too!

Erika: Then at the same time, there’s also no proof that it was impossible to do without magic! You rotten stuffed animaaaaal!

Sakutarou: But in Maria’s case, it may really have been magic! Just because sleight of hand exists doesn’t mean magic is denied.

Beato Learns Magic

Older Beatrice: Using magic, you created a golden rose petal underneath the cup. It was a magnificent display of magic.

The First Twilight

Dlanor: Request: The six rooms were all closed rooms.
Battler: I acknowledge it. But only up until Gohda cut the chains and so forth and the rooms were broken into.

Dlanor: Request: The closed room definition indicates that a construction from outside is impossible.
Battler: I acknowledge it.

Dlanor: Request: The closed room definition indicates that all forms of influence between the inside and outside of the room are impossible.
Battler: I acknowledge it. However, I won’t deny common influences such as knocks, voices, or the internal phone line that could be theorized about in a normal room.

Dlanor: Request: When the locked rooms were destroyed, no one existed inside the rooms except the victims (Natsuhi, Eva, Kyrie, Rosa, Maria, and Battler).
Battler: I acknowledge it.

Dlanor: Request: No murders are carried out after the destruction of the closed rooms.
Battler: Refused.
Beato: There will be more murders after this, so the recital is impossible.

Erika: Krauss’s group cut the chains and entered the rooms, and then killed the people who were inside.

Erika: Request: After the closed rooms were destroyed, other than me, the only people who entered the rooms were the following four people: Krauss, Rudolf, Hideyoshi, and Gohda.
Battler: I acknowledge it. But that’s only up to the present time. Other people could come in later in the game.

Erika: Request: Krauss, Rudolf, Hideyoshi, and Gohda are not the culprits.
Battler: The four people, Krauss, Rudolf, Hideyoshi, and Gohda, were not involved in the murders of the six people, Natsuhi, Eva, Kyrie, Rosa, Maria, and Battler.

Dlanor: Request: Excluding being killed by another person, none of the victims died by any other means whatsoever.
Battler: I acknowledge it.

Sealing the Guesthouse

Erika: For this set of requests, the following conditions hold:
- “Neighboring room” refers to the room next to the cousins’ room where the other group is holed up.
- The requests concern only the location of bodies, not whether they are alive or dead.
- The requests refer to the present time.

Erika: Request: The six victims of the first twilight are where they were discovered. Natsuhi in her room, Eva in the honored guest room, Kyrie in Krauss’s study, Rosa and Maria in the parlor, and you in the guest room!
Battler: I’ll acknowledge that.

Erika: Request: Those who are in the neighboring room are Hideyoshi, George, Shannon, Kumasawa, and Nanjo!
Battler: I acknowledge it.

Erika: Request: All other people are in the cousins’ room!
Battler: Refused. This would imply Kinzo's corpse is in the cousins' room.
Erika: Since he's confirmed not to exist, please exclude him.
Battler: I acknowledge that all other people are in the cousins’ room.

(At this point, Battler would have been willing to repeat “Krauss, Rudolf, Jessica, Genji, Gohda, and Kanon are in the cousins’ room.")

Dlanor: Due to the seals on the doors and windows, the sealing of the cousins’ room and neighboring room is guaranteed.

The Logic Error

Dlanor: I have confirmed that the guest room is perfectly sealed. The closed room has been maintained ever since Erika confirmed Battler’s presence.

Lambda: I swear to render a fair judgment.

Battler: Ushiromiya Battler is not on the bed.

Erika: There is a possibility of a hiding place X that can’t be found. Since he’s hiding there, I won’t be able to find him.

Battler: Knox’s 3rd Commandment. The existence of secret passages is forbidden.

Beato: Inside the guest room, no hiding places exist that cannot be found by Erika.

Dlanor: Excluding one place, no one’s body is inside the bedroom.

Dlanor: No one’s body is inside the bathroom.

Erika: We have confirmed that, overlooking one place, Battler does not exist in the guest room.

Erika: You haven’t disappeared from this room. You just hid to create the illusion that you vanished from a closed room. The place you hid in… is the one I haven’t checked yet, “the one place I overlooked.”

Erika: That “one place I overlooked”… is here. The walk-in closet by the entrance!

Dlanor: There are no hiding places other than this one. Right now, you are hiding inside it!

Battler: Ushiromiya Battler does not exist inside the guest room. …That’s including the closet, with no exceptions whatsoever.

Erika: At that time [the moment I entered the room], I immediately closed the door and reset the chain lock, sealing the room.

Battler: When the incident was discovered, the chain should have been cut by Gohda. So long as the chain lock is nonfunctional, it cannot be used to seal the room.

Bern: Erika repaired the chain lock.

Lambda: Erika “sealed” the room by connecting the sections of the severed chain using her duct tape. In short, she used the seals to repair the chain, and used that to make the room a closed room again from the inside.

Lambda: The duct tape seals aren’t limited to a number of uses, right? It’s the number of rooms. …The only limitation is the three room limit. …Erika chose this guest room as one of those three. So in this room, she has the right to seal as many places and as many times as she wants.

Erika: I declare that using the duct tape seals, the chain lock has been restored to its former utility. And, by means of that, I locked it at the moment I came in, making this guest room a closed room again from the inside.

Erika: Request: Right now, this chain lock is still locked.
Battler: The chain lock is still locked.

Dlanor: Ushiromiya Kyrie… cannot save Battler.

Dlanor: Ushiromiya Natsuhi cannot save Battler.

Dlanor: Ushiromiya Eva cannot save Battler.

Dlanor: He’s finished. Neither Rosa nor Maria can save him. …Finishedfinishedfinishedfinished, finishedfinishedfinishedfinished, Die the death! Sentence to death! Great equalizer is the death!

Dlanor: Knox’s 7th Commandment. It is forbidden for the detective to be the culprit.

Erika: I properly re-killed them.

Bern: She killed them in various different ways, but afterwards she completely severed all of the victims’ heads.

Erika: All five of the people I killed… were perfectly alive until the exact moment I killed them.

Gertrude and Cornelia: Ladies and gentlemen, we humbly offer to state the following. Please know that neither of the seals [on the cousins’ room and neighboring room doors] is broken.

Gertrude: Please know that an unbroken seal is, in short, proof that it has prevented anyone from leaving thus far.

Cornelia: Though there is no need to say it at this point, please know that going in or out without breaking the seal is impossible!

Battler’s Prison

Erika: This room is a closed room created from the inside. The window seals are intact, so escaping through the window is impossible. Of course, there’s no way to escape from the bathroom either. …I’ll say it clearly. There is no exit you can escape from other than this door. But this door’s chain lock is set. You’re free to unset or reset it, but you can only do so from inside. And you’re even free to go out the door, but that doesn’t count as an escape unless the chain is set.

The Wedding

Gaap: It is possible for Kanon to have rescued Battler. After Erika placed her seals, he left through the window, switched places with Battler in the guest room, set the chain lock, and hid in the closet.

Dlanor: That is impossible. The seals on the window were also intact. Naturally, I am referring to the time of the logic error.

Gaap: That seal you were talking about was the one on “Kanon’s” cousins’ room, wasn’t it? So what about the window in the neighboring room? Your statement that it was impossible only applied to the possibility of Kanon rescuing Battler. The possibility of it being someone from the neighboring room is still alive…!

Gertrude: Please know that the use of blue truths claiming that the seal on the neighboring room’s window was not intact at the time of the logic error has been forbidden.

Cornelia: Respectfully, know that the duty to respond to appropriate blue truths has not been invoked…!

Beato vs. Erika: The Guesthouse

Erika: Request: The one who helped Battler escape was unmistakably Kanon himself.
Beato: The one who helped Battler escape was unmistakably Kanon himself.

Erika: Request: Battler and Kanon are different people.
Beato: Battler and Kanon are different people.

(Note that after this point, the prohibition on blue truths referring to the neighboring room window has been retracted.)

Erika: The cousins’ room was confirmed to be a closed room right up to the very end. Therefore, if Kanon was really in that room, escaping would be impossible! In other words, at the time of the sealing, Kanon wasn’t in the cousins’ room!! Kanon’s name is a temporary thing. His real name is still unclear! If, for example, his name was the same as someone in the neighboring room, there would be no contradiction with the confirmation of people in the neighboring room! In short, rather than being in the cousins’ room, he could have been in the neighboring room!

Erika: The neighboring room was certainly sealed, but at the time of the logic error, only the seal on the door was confirmed to be intact. Therefore, there is a possibility that the seal on the window was broken. Kanon was in the neighboring room, and he escaped through that window…!!

Beato: The people who were in the neighboring room at the time it was sealed were Hideyoshi, George, Kumasawa, Shannon, and Nanjo. And, there were exactly five people in the neighboring room. No one other than the people corresponding to those five names existed! All names refer only to the actual people!!

Beato vs. Erika: The Guest Room

Erika: Request: At the time Battler was rescued, the only one who entered the guest room was Kanon.
Beato: At the time Battler was rescued, the only one who entered the guest room was Kanon.

Erika: Request: From the time I entered the room until the logic error occurred, with the exception of myself, Battler, and Kanon, no one entered or exited the room.
Beato: I’ll acknowledge it. From the time you entered the room until the logic error occurred, the only ones who entered or exited the room were you, Battler, and Kanon.

Erika: Request: That refers to three people.
Beato: I’ll acknowledge it. You, Battler, and Kanon add up to three people.

Erika: Definition check. That “three people” refers to the number of bodies, correct? That means three bodies went in and out, right?
Beato: Of course. Three people, that is, three bodies, went in and out of the room. Only you and Kanon entered, and only Battler left. I already stated with red truth that all names refer only to the actual people. Therefore, the names “Erika”, “Battler”, and “Kanon” refer only to the actual people.

Erika: Request: I am not the rescuer.
Beato: Of course not! You’re the detective, aren’t you? Relax, I’ll respect that!

Erika: Definition check. What is the definition of “rescuer”?
Beato: The rescuer is defined as the person who reset the chain lock after Battler unset it. Let us set aside the question of whether the rescue was intentional.

Erika: Request: The act of going in and out is defined by whether or not one crossed the boundary between the guest room and the outside.
Beato: I’ll acknowledge it.

Erika: Request: The guest room includes the bedroom, the bathroom, and the inside of the closet in their entirety.
Beato: I’ll acknowledge it. I have no intention of talking my way out by claiming that the inside of the closet isn’t part of the guest room.

Erika: Definition check. The guest room consists of three parts: the bedroom, the bathroom, and the inside of the closet.
Beato: I have also recognized that. And you already confirmed with the red truth that no one was hiding in two of those parts, the bedroom and the bathroom.

Erika: Request: Someone is in the closet.
Beato: Refused. Kanon hid himself in the closet for a short time, but immediately after that, he used magic to disappear! So he isn’t in the closet! Therefore, I cannot repeat it!

Erika: The game ended when I entered the guest room, so I never unset the chain lock after I set it. Therefore, following me out of the room after I left doesn’t work. Also, I set the chain lock at the same time that I entered the room. It is impossible for someone to have left the room in the few seconds between when I entered and when I set the chain.

Erika: I sealed the guest room at the time I investigated Battler’s death, so until I came back and broke the seal myself, entering or leaving the guest room was totally impossible. Therefore, it is confirmed that at the time I entered the room, Battler was hiding somewhere in the room.

Erika: The only chance Battler had to escape was after I broke the seal. Limiting it further, he had no chance to escape except during the period when I was in the bathroom.

Erika: Based on the preceding reasons, the only one who could set the chain lock, which can only be set from the inside, and permit Battler to escape during that period was Kanon, the only person to enter the room other than Battler and me! Kanon entered the room, set the chain, and hid in the closet, the only place in the room he could have hidden—

(Erika cut herself off, realizing she missed something.)

Erika: The “trick of Battler’s disappearance from the guest room” is as follows. …While I was searching the inside of the room, Battler was hiding in the closet. During the ruckus in the bathroom, he unset the chain and escaped from the room to the outside. At that time, Kanon was waiting out in the hall. Kanon exchanged places with him, entering the room and setting the chain. This is the trick of Battler’s disappearance.

Erika: …And after that, he… hid inside the bedroom. Since this was after I confirmed that no suspicious people were in the bedroom, it was possible. Therefore, the rescuer, Kanon, is hiding inside the bedroom.

Beato: Kanon does not exist inside the bedroom.

Beato: Kanon does not exist inside the guest room. …Naturally, this includes the closet, the bedroom, and the bathroom, in their entirety.

Erika's Death

Erika: Nice to meet you, hello! I am Furudo Erika, a detective!! I may be an uninvited guest, but please welcome me!! I am the visitor, the eighteenth human on Rokkenjima!!!

Battler and Beato: We’re very sorry, but even if we welcome you, the number of people is seventeen.

[Jan-Poo]

thanx LyricalAura as usual your red text translations are very useful and well done.

[Dr. Akagi]

I second that. The man is as great as his avatar,

Spoiler for Off-topic:

which is, like, the second best avatar in the thread. Can stare at it for hours. Never fails to put me in … ahem … lyrical mood. Must be the aura.

[Megaolix]

Just finished reading the red and blue. Please don't tell me we need a proper definition of 'killed' and murder now...

And what the hell was Erika doing in this anyway? Was she even TRYING to solve the mystery or was her plan simply to trap Battler? Battler prepared a game fairly and she goes and do this. Detective my ass...

[Kaiba]

I'm quite surprised - that's a pretty small list of red, from my perspective. Is that all of it, and how long is Episode 6 anyways?

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by Kaiba

I'm quite surprised - that's a pretty small list of red, from my perspective. Is that all of it, and how long is Episode 6 anyways?

That's a false impression because there were toncrap of check requests inbetween and the like. But yes, that's pretty much all of the red and blue in Episode 6.

Episode 6 is longer than 5 (and subsequently, 1, 2 and 3), but still shorter than 4.

[luckyssol]

Thank you for list LyricalAura

Originally Posted by Megaolix

Just finished reading the red and blue. Please don't tell me we need a proper definition of 'killed' and murder now...

Unfortunately, I don't think there is any way around being 'killed'.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by Ssol

Thank you for list LyricalAura

Unfortunately, I don't think there is any way around being 'killed'.

And once for all, I would like to point out that "corpse" is the same.
The word doesn't have any kind of "possible interpretation".

I was surprised that some people claim on various forums that "the body "died" but the persona is still alive, then the body got better" (favored argument in order to explain Jessica's death in Episode 2)... using Erika's fallacious reasoning that the victims were put in coma because of insulin.

Corpse is basically a body without life, and unless science managed to get the holy grail or whatsoever, there is no way to restore life to a dead body.
And no, someone afflicted by a cardiac arrest is -not- considered dead, until all reanimation procedures (CPR etc) were ineffective. It is only after that point that medical team declare one's death, at that specific time.
Therefore, no one "becomes dead, then alive afterwards" at all. And again, red text doesn't care about "legal stuff" whatsoever. Corpse means: the said character is dead (or it would be the worst cop out ever).

And one must be an utter moron to use insulin to put themselves in a coma: that's the best way to turn into a vegetable.
Although I was impressed that Erika (and Ryukishi) would know that far, I was kinda amused how it was ludicrous in the context.

[Midnight Bliss]

what is with all these shkanon hints aaaah please dont let it be true ;-; RYUKISHI YOU TROLL</3
the whole guest room and thing with Battler and Kanon seem kind of confusing to me. D: im excited for when the patch for ep 6 comes out, though. Ep 4 certainly is the longest of course, but if ep 6 is longer than 5 and the others, yay<3