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Old 2008-08-28, 16:52   Link #661
Daigo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Depends on how the technology is used I suppose.
(Having not watched Macross Zero, I was trying ot picture what you meant by a flapping wing and all evidence suggested you meant like a bird for keeping aloft, which is highly impractical for a supersonic jet, and unneeded for a space superiority fighter if one imagines most combat will take place in space.)
Having wings that can flap isn't any more impractical for a jet than being able to transform into a mech. Like I said, you need to address that issue before you claim that flapping is impractical, because I can easily say that transforming into a mech is impractical.

At supersonic speeds, it can easily just fix wings in place and use the jet engines. At low speeds, it can either flap its wings or use a combination of flapping and jet engines. Another advantage of flapping is there's no hot exhaust and it's quieter. This could easily lower the aircraft's IR signature. Even at supersonic speeds, the wings are by default, variable geometry wings, and can be used to change speeds and frontal facing far easier than with a fixed-wing plane.

As for space, what's the point of having wings in space at all? At least with a plane that can flap, presumably the wings can be tucked in like a bird's or Pterosaur's as long as they are flexible enough, which they should be. With a fixed wing aircraft, it just seems like the wings are useless things that can be shot off in space. They can carry missiles though, in which case the wings can be fixed in place and carry missiles just like a fixed wing aircraft's.

Quote:
What does this wing concept do for the SV-51?
In what way does it makes it superior to vectored thrust systems on fixed/sweeping wing designs of the later VF series fighters such as the VF-25? (or even just the VF-1).
How does this reflect on the VF-27?
It greatly increased its maneuverability. They had vectored thrust too. Flapping wings + vectored thrust means more maneuverability. They couldn't flap fast enough to keep the plane aloft on flapping alone, but just the few flaps it was able to do, and the incredible flexibility of the wings, made it far more maneuverable. The VF-27? What about it?
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Old 2008-08-28, 18:53   Link #662
Haesslich
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Daigo: The bigger birds don't need a RUNWAY, but they do need some space to make the dash to gain enough speed to take off, and IIRC the pterosaurs were more gliders than 'flap their wings and fly' types. And, IIRC, the flapping wings on the SV-51 were more for effect than hovering capability, which was provided by the thrusters in its legs like the VF-0 and VF-1 which would succeed it. The SV-51 didn't have nearly enough wingspan compared to its mass to allow for ornithorp-type flight.

And IIRC, the deforming wings of the YF-21 in Macross Plus only gave it slightly more maneuverability than would adjusting ailerons and flaps... and given that these were more meant for space or near-space combat in conditions where ornithorp-type flight would be impractical (especially given the mass-to-power ratio that could be achieved with flapping wings versus the raw output of a jet-type engine), the dumping of the deforming wings in the VF-22 Sturmvogel made sense - flapping wings won't do much at high altitudes, in space, or in atmospheres where there's too little air density to make it practical... and given that the advantage of the Variable Fighter is its versatility (versus the Destroids' relatively immobile state, thus causing UN Spacy forces to mostly phase them out save for the Monster which was redesigned into the VB-6 concept)...
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Old 2008-08-28, 19:30   Link #663
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the one thing i dont get about the ex gears, how exactly well....do you control them, are the controls for the thrusters neurally linked? hands controls? i dont really get it.
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Old 2008-08-28, 19:51   Link #664
Haesslich
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Originally Posted by FLCL View Post
the one thing i dont get about the ex gears, how exactly well....do you control them, are the controls for the thrusters neurally linked? hands controls? i dont really get it.
Perhaps it's an outgrowth of the same technology first tested with the YF-21? The neural link controls which deranged Guld Goa Bowman to some degree? I can see how some of the functions work with regards to gross motor movements, but some of the flight systems seem impractical unless there's finger-gestures or movements done with the gloves that adjust the ailerons and thrust-pack output and direction.

Last edited by Haesslich; 2008-08-28 at 21:12. Reason: Fixed typo in 'first'
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Old 2008-08-28, 20:35   Link #665
Ithekro
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Did....did we just see a Fast Pack is used manually?
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Old 2008-08-28, 21:08   Link #666
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Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Did....did we just see a Fast Pack is used manually?
Yes you did. And I believe that was Michael's.
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Old 2008-08-28, 21:11   Link #667
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Originally Posted by Sleepy100 View Post
Yes you did. And I believe that was Michael's.
That was AWESOME.

BUT more importantly did anybody see this:

Spoiler:


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Old 2008-08-28, 21:12   Link #668
Ithekro
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What the? What is all that?
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Old 2008-08-28, 21:18   Link #669
Haesslich
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Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
What the? What is all that?
That looks like an Armored Pack to me, complete with Big Gun and extra missiles or weapons pods slung beneath the wings.
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Old 2008-08-28, 21:38   Link #670
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Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
What the? What is all that?
Its some sort of Super Pack or Armored Pack for the VF-171. Take note this particular VF-171 seems to have the classic brown color of the cannon fodder VF-1s from SDFM. I swear this VF-171 is gonna be pwned in the next few episodes in large numbers.
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Old 2008-08-28, 22:27   Link #671
Daigo
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Originally Posted by Haesslich View Post
Daigo: The bigger birds don't need a RUNWAY, but they do need some space to make the dash to gain enough speed to take off, and IIRC the pterosaurs were more gliders than 'flap their wings and fly' types. And, IIRC, the flapping wings on the SV-51 were more for effect than hovering capability, which was provided by the thrusters in its legs like the VF-0 and VF-1 which would succeed it. The SV-51 didn't have nearly enough wingspan compared to its mass to allow for ornithorp-type flight.
No, they don't. Some might take a running start, but they don't require it. I know this because I'm a biology major and I study these animals. Pterosaurs are not gliders, they are fully capable of flying by flapping and soaring. There's a huge difference. If you read my previous posts, you would know I claimed no such thing about the SV-51. I never said they could hover or even sustain flight alone by just flapping. I said and I quote

"It greatly increased its maneuverability. They had vectored thrust too. Flapping wings + vectored thrust means more maneuverability. They couldn't flap fast enough to keep the plane aloft on flapping alone, but just the few flaps it was able to do, and the incredible flexibility of the wings, made it far more maneuverable."

I'm not sure what you mean by "more for effect". If you mean that it just looks cool, then you can apply that logic to pretty much everything in the anime, especially the transformation into mecha, which you have not bothered to address. If you are going to question the usefulness of wings that flap, logically you have to defend the usefulness of the mecha transformations.

Quote:
And IIRC, the deforming wings of the YF-21 in Macross Plus only gave it slightly more maneuverability than would adjusting ailerons and flaps... and given that these were more meant for space or near-space combat in conditions where ornithorp-type flight would be impractical (especially given the mass-to-power ratio that could be achieved with flapping wings versus the raw output of a jet-type engine), the dumping of the deforming wings in the VF-22 Sturmvogel made sense - flapping wings won't do much at high altitudes, in space, or in atmospheres where there's too little air density to make it practical... and given that the advantage of the Variable Fighter is its versatility (versus the Destroids' relatively immobile state, thus causing UN Spacy forces to mostly phase them out save for the Monster which was redesigned into the VB-6 concept)..
Judging the performance of aircraft by an anime is a poor measure really, not to mention the YF-21 didn't have flapping wings. In any case we first have to determine what are we debating exactly.

If we are discussing how useful flapping wings are in real life or in the fictional world of Macross makes a big difference. If we are talking about in real life, then we can't look to the YF-21 for a proper examination of how useful dynamic wing geometry is because it's a fictional work that is drawn however the animators like it. For example the movements of the fighters in space is utterly unrealistic. Anyone with a basic understanding of physics knows that the fighter's banking movements are impossible in the vacuum of space, among other obvious mistakes. Not to mention that I could easily argue that in the future, small, fast fighters are unlikely to ever be used in space combat, or even in an atmosphere unless they are flying very low, but that's another debate.

If we are talking in the Macross universe, well I actually already addressed all of the concerns you mentioned. Instead of repeating myself I'll just re-quote myself.

"As for space, what's the point of having wings in space at all? At least with a plane that can flap, presumably the wings can be tucked in like a bird's or Pterosaur's as long as they are flexible enough, which they should be. With a fixed wing aircraft, it just seems like the wings are useless things that can be shot off in space. They can carry missiles though, in which case the wings can be fixed in place and carry missiles just like a fixed wing aircraft's."

I should first point out that I'm not really talking about the YF-21 which doesn't have flapping wings. So I don't think I need to address it. But if you could tell me why transforming into a humanoid mech is more useful and easier to develop than wings that flap, that would be helpful to your stance.
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Old 2008-08-28, 22:45   Link #672
Haesslich
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The wings exist primarily as surfaces to put maneuvering thusters on, or for flight in-atmosphere; the chief advantage of the Variable Fighter as a platform compared to the Destroids is its ability to go anywhere and do almost anything. You'll also note they serve as mounting points, and (in the case of the VF-19 and 21) as shields in Battloid form. The justification for the reverse canards in the YF-19 and following VF-19 were that they increased maneuverability to some degree in atmosphere by introducing more instability to the flight profile at the cost of overall speed.

And since you're a biology major, surely you understand the reason that there's an upper limit on the size of flying animals, ja? Namely the amount of mass lifted by the wings (and the energy required for flight) increases substantially the amount of power required? Let's use an SV-51 as an example: it is about 17800kg, or about 17.8 metric tons; the specs given for it indicate it has two turbojet engines which provide a total of 204.7kN of force to power its flight. The extra thrust is required to carry things like fuel, munitions, and so forth.

And if you actually watched the first few episodes of the series, the reason they gave to justify th transforming mecha is clear - "to fight giant humanoid aliens" on an equal basis, especially in-city which did happen with the Macross series. At that point, you don't want to start throwing missiles and nukes at your own cities just to kill a few hundred giant aliens. Nor do they fight 'hand to hand' well as occasionally happened in-series. They were basically designed as giant infantry who also flew, and could go more places than the relatively immobile Destroids which could only go from point A to point B rather laboriously.

And if I remember it correctly, don't condors need a running start TO fly? Basically they can't just flap their wings and suddenly take off due to their mass? Scaling that up to a 17-ton (or more) plane would take mammoth engines/motors, which in turn would increase mass.
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Old 2008-08-28, 23:19   Link #673
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Don't forget that in M0 those VF's weren't equipped with reaction reactors but traditional fuel consuming engines. The flapping wings for glide and lift could have been the anti UN faction's way of trying to conserve fuel at the cost of overall Gerwalk performance.
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Old 2008-08-28, 23:34   Link #674
Haesslich
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Originally Posted by squaresphere View Post
Don't forget that in M0 those VF's weren't equipped with reaction reactors but traditional fuel consuming engines. The flapping wings for glide and lift could have been the anti UN faction's way of trying to conserve fuel at the cost of overall Gerwalk performance.
The problem there is, even with Overtechnology, you're going to need either a LOT of wing surface or else flap pretty fast and strongly in order to support the VF's weight of 17 tons. And even then, they spend a lot of time gliding to conserve energy - a huge 17-ton hovering Gerwalk is going to either need a wingspan of a square kilometer or two or be flapping like a hummingbird unless you have some sort of antigrav tech onboard to lower your effective mass... which I don't recall them using yet, as it was experimental.

Given the lack of wingless hovering vehicles, it appears that antigrav tech doesn't work all that well in the Macross universe, or it's more that humans can't make it practical for the mass/size of whatever generators they use.
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Old 2008-08-28, 23:59   Link #675
Daigo
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Just for terminology sake, I'll refer to a variable fighter that has flapping wings as an Ornithjet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Haesslich View Post
The wings exist primarily as surfaces to put maneuvering thusters on, or for flight in-atmosphere; the chief advantage of the Variable Fighter as a platform compared to the Destroids is its ability to go anywhere and do almost anything. You'll also note they serve as mounting points, and (in the case of the VF-19 and 21) as shields in Battloid form. The justification for the reverse canards in the YF-19 and following VF-19 were that they increased maneuverability to some degree in atmosphere by introducing more instability to the flight profile at the cost of overall speed.
So, in space an Ornithjet could do the same exact thing. There's nothing stopping an Ornithjet from locking its wings in place and using them as mounts for thrusters or missiles. In an atmosphere they can take advantage of their ability to flap.


Quote:
And since you're a biology major, surely you understand the reason that there's an upper limit on the size of flying animals, ja? Namely the amount of mass lifted by the wings (and the energy required for flight) increases substantially the amount of power required? Let's use an SV-51 as an example: it is about 17800kg, or about 17.8 metric tons; the specs given for it indicate it has two turbojet engines which provide a total of 204.7kN of force to power its flight. The extra thrust is required to carry things like fuel, munitions, and so forth.
Actually no, there's no upper limit. Hatzegopteryx proves that well, as it's one of the largest animals ever that is fully capable of flight by flapping and soaring. The surface area of the wings is important, and so is the speed of the flapping. As you increase the weight, this can be offset by increasing the rate at which the object flaps and the surface area of the wings. The natural counter is, it's a huge technological hurdle. And I agree, but it's not impossible, and compared to transforming into an agile humanoid robot, it's actually easier to do.


Quote:
And if you actually watched the first few episodes of the series, the reason they gave to justify th transforming mecha is clear - "to fight giant humanoid aliens" on an equal basis, especially in-city which did happen with the Macross series. At that point, you don't want to start throwing missiles and nukes at your own cities just to kill a few hundred giant aliens. Nor do they fight 'hand to hand' well as occasionally happened in-series. They were basically designed as giant infantry who also flew, and could go more places than the relatively immobile Destroids which could only go from point A to point B rather laboriously.
If we go ahead and accept that, then that leads to my next point. If you can create a giant mecha that is capable of walking, running, dodging, ducking, leaping, and basically any maneuver that a human is capable of, then you can create an airplane that can flap its wings. The technological level required to create an Ornithjet is far less than is required to create a giant transforming mech.



Quote:
And if I remember it correctly, don't condors need a running start TO fly? Basically they can't just flap their wings and suddenly take off due to their mass? Scaling that up to a 17-ton (or more) plane would take mammoth engines/motors, which in turn would increase mass.
No, they don't. They are scavengers remember. If they needed a running start, they would be easy prey to other animals. In addition, many larger Pterosaurs are incapable of running on land.

Again, I'm not saying there aren't any technological hurdles. I'm saying the design is easier to develop than a transforming humanoid mech.
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Old 2008-08-29, 00:52   Link #676
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I'm not sure why we're arguing about flapping wings on warbirds, but I have a hard time seeing the practicality of such a system. Let's pretend for a moment that we're not dealing with transforming mechs.

If I were a designer contracted to make a new jet for the military, I know the wings would need to lock in place for high speeds and for combat. Then I think, "why bother with the flapping at all? It'll be easier and cheaper to make with fixed wings. The engines are already strong enough to keep it airborne." Am I not mistaken that birds flap their wings because they don't have engines to produce thrust? It wouldn't be a problem for low speeds, but fighter jets need to go fast.

Now, for small scout robots and micro/nanomachines, I think a nature-inspired flight system would be ideal, since it generates both lift and thrust in the same system. To this day the Air Force researches how to put the dragonfly's flying method to use.

I'm not saying it can't be done, but some applications are more practical than others.

As far as the SV-51 is concerned, I understood the wings were flexible like that so they could fold away in the hangar, as they launched from tubes in a submarine. I figured they move during gerwalk and battroid forms to help stabilize the mecha.
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Old 2008-08-29, 01:22   Link #677
Daigo
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Originally Posted by abynormal View Post
I'm not sure why we're arguing about flapping wings on warbirds, but I have a hard time seeing the practicality of such a system. Let's pretend for a moment that we're not dealing with transforming mechs.

If I were a designer contracted to make a new jet for the military, I know the wings would need to lock in place for high speeds and for combat. Then I think, "why bother with the flapping at all? It'll be easier and cheaper to make with fixed wings. The engines are already strong enough to keep it airborne." Am I not mistaken that birds flap their wings because they don't have engines to produce thrust? It wouldn't be a problem for low speeds, but fighter jets need to go fast.

Now, for small scout robots and micro/nanomachines, I think a nature-inspired flight system would be ideal, since it generates both lift and thrust in the same system. To this day the Air Force researches how to put the dragonfly's flying method to use.

I'm not saying it can't be done, but some applications are more practical than others.

As far as the SV-51 is concerned, I understood the wings were flexible like that so they could fold away in the hangar, as they launched from tubes in a submarine. I figured they move during gerwalk and battroid forms to help stabilize the mecha.
You should really read the entire discussion. I already listed the advantages of an ornithjet a while ago.

A fighter jet doesn't have to go fast if it can flap its wings. That's one of the many advantages that I already mentioned. The ability to fly at low speeds and low altitudes. You can read the others as I've already mentioned them.

Additionally, if you are assuming we are not dealing with transforming jets, then that means you are taking a realistic look at this instead of debating this within the context of the Macross universe. In which case, I could also argue that fighter jets in general are not practical at all in the future unless they are capable of slow, low altitude flight. In short, the reasons mostly have to do with advances in laser weapon technology.
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Old 2008-08-29, 02:50   Link #678
Ithekro
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Oddly I don't think your concept is sound to make the craft more agile at combat speeds. At least in the form of a jet. The flapping at high speeds disrupt the air flow over the wing and could potentially make the craft even more unstable than it may already be. Thus requiring even more advanced computer controls to keep the craft flying. Not to say it won't work, just that if it does what I think it would do, the aircraft will be unstable anytime the wings are moved. (not that current designs are any more stable...come to think of it. Hense fly-by-wire technology...because without the computer...it don't fly.)

Now instead of flapping, just relative movement to increase turning speeds may be fuctional, but then again this causes more stress on both the pilot and the airframe.

In addition, such a feature would incease the cost of an already expensive machine. Not only the development costs, manufacturing costs, but also the maintenance costs. Dispite the huge cost of a variable fighter and its already overcomplex parts to change itself, adding even more cost has been shown to be a detriment to an aircrafts service life. The VF-19 and VF-22 do not seem to be in service in any numbers by 2059 even if they seem superior to the VF-171 and VF-25 and the YF-19 and YF-21 had features removed due to cost. The ultra advanced fighters just cost too much and require too highly skilled of a pilot to mass produce for the military arms. This suggests that your Ornithjet would be either too expensive, or require too great of a skill to pilot to be a practical mainstay fighter for the U.N.Spacy.

Now if we go on the by todays rules...without variable jet Overtechnology...Assuming one could get Ornithjet to work correctly...what purpose would it serve? How would it be superior to the currect frontline fighters? Would it even be an air superiority fighter? If the war games results I've heard about are accurate...the F-22 is so superior to the F-15 and other fighters of its gerations that they can kill 50 F-15s flown by the best pilots we have, and not loss a single F-22. Best assumption is that this is possible because the F-22 can strike first without being detected and then avoid retaliation. Your ornithjet would likely not be able to have this type of first strike ability (stealth) due to the needs of the wing design.

In context to Macross however...with Overtechnology...your design might be on par with the fixed wing varible fighters (a variation of the SV-51 I assume would be your design model) Here stealth is a non-issue (no one seems to care about passive stealth). However does the design bring enough to the table to warrent the extra costs? Can it be flown by an average pilot? Can it be mass produced in the hundreds to thousands needed to defend Earth and or the various colony fleets scattered across the galaxy? Can its job by done cheaper? Can a designs be made that allows for more pilots to be up to defend the fleets? Would the complex designs for its wings be yet one more things to go wrong with the fighter? Will it be a hanger queen (always in need of maintenance)?

These are questions that would be asked and require answers even if the designs does do exactly what you say it can with the benefits you propose.
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Old 2008-08-29, 08:05   Link #679
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Anyone notice that Brera uses the same EX-Gear as everyone in the VF-25s?
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Old 2008-08-29, 08:41   Link #680
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Spoiler:


It resembles the ancient Super Pack from the original Macross, a cannon on the one side and a thruster on the other. Only this one has been redesigned and the thruster is replaced by what it seems to be a missile launcher.


Wonder who's piloting it..

Ozma? No he already has his own VF-25S...

Klan? Nope, she's too short...

Diamond Leader Man...? Highly possible
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