Code Geass R2 - Episode 21 Discussion / Poll

[Blue_Mercy]

Finally got back from vacation and was able to see the episode, and what an episode it was.

For starters I'm going to get this out of the way, Koshimizu posted a few days ago before episode 21 aired; Lelouch and his new hat in the spoilers. I commented why nobody was interested in the fact that Lelouch had geass in both eyes, and a couple people said that

Originally Posted by Tokkan

Actually, both his eyes look normal in that sketch. Geass eyes have no glare.

Originally Posted by Var

There's no bird in his eyes either. That Lelouch has no Geass in either eye.

Maybe next time you'll listen.

As for the episode

-Many people have already said it, but Marianne and Charles should have spent more time with their children to understand them instead of sending them to future war zones and perpetuating their own desires. Bad parents all around.

-I gave this episode a 10, but that doesn't mean that I'm happy that Sunrise once again has two friends become enemies and they become friends again especially after all the shit that these two have done to each other.

-I didn't mind the philosophical discussion, as it was probably important for the two of them Charles and Lelouch to get their ideals out where they can better understand each other.

-So V.V. was actually the one who killed Marianne's body? The other incident was just staged? I guess I can accept that, and it just goes to show that even if you make vows, human emotions like jealously still can take you over.

-Lelouch geassed a God. What more do I need to say? His double geass is amazing.

-All Hail Emperor Lelouch!

[Casshern]

Originally Posted by Blue_Mercy

-I gave this episode a 10, but that doesn't mean that I'm happy that Sunrise once again has two friends become enemies and they become friends again especially after all the shit that these two have done to each other.

It seemed more like they were cooperating out of common interest and dispite their hatred, rather than becoming friends again. Personally I find it hard to imagine an ending for this series that I would like without Suzaku and Lelouch both dying.

I hope Lelouch doesn't pull a rahxephon ending using the cult of geass or something.

[Kaze]

Originally Posted by neuromancer

I hope Lelouch doesn't pull a rahxephon ending using the cult of geass or something.

Well, if these aren't his personal guard

Spoiler for Whoops:

[Last Sinner]

Very nice episode. Figures Marianne was just as evil as Charles. Honestly, to mutilate their daughter and emotionally scar their son along the way to their goal - that's cold.

Ah, such irony that despite having opposite ideals, taking different paths and different actions, they have ended up at the same ends. Not to mention they're both parent killers. That was gold yet it easy enough to see coming several episodes ago. Now that Lelouch has taken down the person he has always despised and has the ultimate power, what will he do with it? He isn't doomed yet. He can change things. But now that he is in control, he might ditch idealism after having tasted power. I would like to think he won't take that path, though. It will simply parallel Death Note if it does. I dare to think Lelouch would hand the Areas back to their original countries. If he did that, it would counter anything Schniezel had planned.

Wow, it must suck to be The Black Knights now. They betray Lelouch and by the end of the next episode, he's Emperor. They really don't have much choice other than to side with Schniezel at this rate. And surely Schniezel's intentions can't be good. Furthermore, Kallen's situation just looks grim. For the man who she trusted to liberate to Japan, the man she trusted with all her ideals and her heart, to suddenly become Emperor, this might be the death knell for any positive feelings/trust she had for Lelouch. She craves an explanation but I don't see how Kallen can get one. I'd like to think Kallen can contact Lelouch, but I just get the feeling that if Lelouch doesn't fix things in the world, Kallen will take charge of the Black Knights and go after Lelouch and Suzaku.

So once again, C.C. had the chance to choose death and again Lelouch talked her out of it, but this time by his actions rather than his words. I never bought that C.C. wanted death more than anything when she said it in 15 and after 21 it just reaffirms it. What she does want, well, one could ponder on that for a fair while. She has always wanted just one person to genuinely love her, but she has long forsaken hope that it could happen. Her pattern of actions is to prevent being connected to anyone, to prevent affection, to make sure no one actually cared about her at all. Yet at her weakest moments in both seasons, it's blatantly obvious that from the very depths of her soul, she craves affection and wants to be loved.

But from the mistakes of her Geass use and the tragic downfalls of those she has given Geass to, she believes that anyone that she gets close too is doomed. Her resistance to Lelouch in her weakest moments reflects that, as well as her constant criticism and generally cold manner. Still, she wants to be loved, although in her current state, she thinks she is beyond being loved and that all she can do is take responsibility for her actions. The history shown in 21 shows that depths of C.C.'s despair - not only is she certain love is beyond her, but her last remaining friend is planning a path for humanity for which she doesn't approve of, yet she can't do antyhing about. Which leads to me thinking that, as I had thought all along, that C.C. sought Lelouch out. That only the son could topple the father and mother, so she gave him the power despite knowing the damage and pain it would bring Lelouch. Hence why she continually wards him off, so Lelouch doesn't end up like her.

But after 21, where C.C. stands in this all is uncertain. Now that Charles and Marianne are gone and Lelouch is Emperor, she no longer has to run nor fear humanity merging into one being. But I think she fears Lelouch has ended up just like her now that he has what he wanted. Still, it's unclear what Lelouch and Suzaku will do. If they end up being just as twisted as Charles was, C.C. will surely feel she has failed Lelouch and will probably end up killing him. Or, by some weird twist of fate, she could end up as Queen. The fact she wasn't abandoned/locked up makes me feel she still is of some importance/value, but I don't think she took any heart from Lelouch's manner of rising to the throne. I need to see 22 before I can feel relatively sure about this.

I found this episode to be the ultimate antidote for everything Evangelion tried to do. 'The War' preached the whole 'everyone become one' crap and affiliation over and over. Code Geass does promote affiliation but snubbed the coalesced complex. Furthermore, Lelouch/Suzaku has not ended up like Shinji. So I am very relieved that Code Geass didn't make the same mistakes "The War' did. It's feeling damn epic at the moment. I hope this continues to the very end.

[Ronin Aquila]

The following scene from the 2002 musical black comedy Chicago would be the best comparison to Leouch and Suzaku's current relationship.

Velma Kelly: I hate you.
Roxie Hart: I hate you too. But that dosen't matter at all in this (show) business.

And the two enemies went on to become the hottest dance-act sensation in Chicago.

There is now not one atom of love or even basic respect left between the two boys, and yet they need each other politically more than ever, much like how a cancer needs a body within which it can grow.

Locked together in hate, the two will cancerously eat each other until their ultimate mutual destruction.

[Dream_Traveller]

They really displayed hate for each other during Lelouch's self-inaugeration, didn't they?

[bladeofdarkness]

Last Sinner

you do know that kallen and lulu get to have a one on one talk next ep (in ashford from the looks of it)
and that from the looks of things he makes britannia join the UFN

[Ronin Aquila]

Originally Posted by Dream_Traveller

They really displayed hate for each other during Lelouch's self-inaugeration, didn't they?

The editorial choice, wherein an entire month is skipped right after Lelouch's nonchalant "so what" answer to Suzaku's declaration of "you murdered Euphemia", implies that the director does not consider whether or not their friendship endures important to the political plot in question.

Whether or not they have any fondness for each other is irrelevant to their needs.

Lelouch needs an invincible bodyguard who wouldn't betray him; not out of a sense of loyalty, but a sense of need.

Politically, Suzaku needs an Emperor whose authority is unquestionable to have his knighthood valid, as the support of nobles would not be sufficient. As Charles is no longer a viable option, helping Lelouch ascend to the throne is the most logical alternative, for unlike Schneizel, there is literally no way to resist Lelouch's authority.

Neither boy needs to even actually respect, much less like the other for their mutual, coldly logical goals to succeed.

[Last Sinner]

I didn't watch the preview for 22. I had a bus to catch. But if what you say is true, then that is a relief.

[Utau]

Originally Posted by neuromancer

It seemed more like they were cooperating out of common interest and dispite their hatred, rather than becoming friends again. Personally I find it hard to imagine an ending for this series that I would like without Suzaku and Lelouch both dying.

I hope Lelouch doesn't pull a rahxephon ending using the cult of geass or something.

Originally Posted by Nourredine

Well, if these aren't his personal guard

Spoiler for Whoops:

he already got their dress tailored

[Revolutionist]

Best possible ending:

Suzaku and Lelouch are walking down a long dark Hall, Suzaku's wearing an eye patch.

Suzaku: It appears we were wrong...
Lelouch: Yes...
Suzaku: The world hasn't changed, despite all we've done.
Lelouch: That's why...
Suzaku: Yes, we will destroy it all!
*both laugh maniacally*
Geass Cultist appears suddenly
Cultist: Your Majesty, reconstruction is on schedule.
Lelouch: Good, soon the world will be reborn!
Suzaku: Excuse me, I must go talk to Euphy and Shirley.
Lelouch: Suzaku, please tell them soon we shall meet again.
Suzaku: Yes, your Majesty!
camera zooms out to show a rebuilt Sword of Akasha, where Suzaku takes off is eye patch to reveal a geass!

credits roll.

[Tokkan]

Originally Posted by Blue_Mercy

Maybe next time you'll listen.

You missed the point, Var and I were not denying that he could get Geass in both eyes back then, we were simply pointing out that his eyes did not have Geass in them in that sketch because there was visible glare in the eyes, as well as what seemed to be solid pupils. Geass eyes do not have glare and the pupils are blurred into the irises. Apart from those facts, there was also no bird in the eyes in that sketch.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Ronin Aquila

The editorial choice, wherein an entire month is skipped right after Lelouch's nonchalant "so what" answer to Suzaku's declaration of "you murdered Euphemia", implies that the director does not consider whether or not their friendship endures important to the political plot in question.

Whether or not they have any fondness for each other is irrelevant to their needs.

Lelouch needs an invincible bodyguard who wouldn't betray him; not out of a sense of loyalty, but a sense of need.

Politically, Suzaku needs an Emperor whose authority is unquestionable to have his knighthood valid, as the support of nobles would not be sufficient. As Charles is no longer a viable option, helping Lelouch ascend to the throne is the most logical alternative, for unlike Schneizel, there is literally no way to resist Lelouch's authority.

Neither boy needs to even actually respect, much less like the other for their mutual, coldly logical goals to succeed.

But at some point in 21, Suzaku remembered that neither Euphemia nor Shirley were Lelouch's enemy. I believe it's significant.

And Lelouch wasn't exactly "You bastard, you killed Nunnaly" either.

Things may not be perfect between them, but I wouldn't say everything is gone.

[Eliarine]

Originally Posted by Ronin Aquila

There is now not one atom of love or even basic respect left between the two boys

Reading your analysis of the Lelouch/Suzaku relationship is always entertaining.

[El_Negro]

so far episode 21 - Ragnarok Connection has shown us some improving developments, it's just that I cannot fathom why people who wanted to see those two (Lelouch & Suzaku) working together, would now be a bad & sappy conclusion, here's the evaluation:

Personally, I don’t think that the fact that Lelouch and Suzaku are working together at this point is all that odd or that it’s stretching things (so to speak). To some extent, Lelouch has been coming to the realization this season that the means do matter on some level and Suzaku pretty much snapped recently and decided that if all you worry about is the means, then you’ll never reach the end that you looking for. Basically, between the two of them in this episode, they said that in order to achieve what you desire, you must take action, but that the actions you choose can cause you to lose other things. At minimum, they agreed that the emperor’s plan had to be stopped.

But really, Lelouch and Suzaku have been working towards the same basic goal all along. They wanted to create a better world than the one that Britannia had. It was how to go about it that they disagreed on. And after getting rid of the emperor, the best means of achieving their ends was to put Lelouch on the throne. As such, Lelouch defeated Britannia (perhaps not quite as he’d planned, but he dealt the leaders of Britannia a serious blow) and Suzaku has the opportunity to really change things from the inside. It was by far their best option.

The only thing that really would have stopped them from working together was the bad blood between them. Lelouch had killed Euphemia and Suzaku had killed Nunnally. We don’t know what they talked about after the emperor died (other than a few lines), but it seemed that Lelouch’s attitude, at least, was that such things were in the past and that they needed to move on if they wanted to achieve the better world that they’d been working towards. Suzaku may not have been very happy about that, but between the fact that he seems to have realized that Euphemia and Shirley trusted in Lelouch enough to not reveal that he was Zero and the fact that having Lelouch become emperor was the best plan, I don’t think that he had much of a choice. Plus, there’s every chance that he got Lelouch and/or C.C. to really explain what happened with Euphemia.

I really don’t think that it’s all that far-fetched at all far Lelouch and Suzaku to agree to work together at this point. It makes by far the most sense for the both of them. Their stubbornness is about the only thing that would stop them, but with them both understanding what the emperor was up to and both understanding why they did what they did, then I find it hard to believe that either of them would have given up this golden opportunity.

[Ronin Aquila]

On a side note, it was a relief to see Lelouch still human-and-sane enough to cry tears in this episode. It was an incredibly worrying indicator of insanity when he did not weep or shed a singular tear after Nunna-chan's death.

[Dream_Traveller]

...Need I remind you that it was Nunnally's 'death' that drove him insane?

[Ronin Aquila]

Originally Posted by Dream_Traveller

...Need I remind you that it was Nunnally's 'death' that drove him insane?

No need.

It was merely a statement of relief that the experience has NOT driven him completely mad.

The previous statement was not even an attack on board memeber or any belief system in particular, so I fail to see the necessity for that sarcastic jab.

Feel free to attack me when I do actually go out of my way to attack another board member or belief system like a big fat jackass again though.

When I do so again.

[Diedrupo]

Originally Posted by Ronin Aquila

There is now not one atom of love or even basic respect left between the two boys, and yet they need each other politically more than ever, much like how a cancer needs a body within which it can grow.

Locked together in hate, the two will cancerously eat each other until their ultimate mutual destruction.

I hope you're talking about something other than Code Geass, because that surely in no way describes Suzaku and Lelouch's relationship. They're just tsundere for each other.

Whether or not they have any fondness for each other is irrelevant to their needs.

Lelouch needs an invincible bodyguard who wouldn't betray him; not out of a sense of loyalty, but a sense of need.

Politically, Suzaku needs an Emperor whose authority is unquestionable to have his knighthood valid, as the support of nobles would not be sufficient. As Charles is no longer a viable option, helping Lelouch ascend to the throne is the most logical alternative, for unlike Schneizel, there is literally no way to resist Lelouch's authority.

Neither boy needs to even actually respect, much less like the other for their mutual, coldly logical goals to succeed.

You can come up with whatever BS justifications for them to still be at each others throats, but the bottomline is that they are best friends again. At the very least, they are working together and appear to fully trust each other. You cannot simply make up wanton assumptions in an attempt to justify some fake hatred still existing between the two.

[Casshern]

Originally Posted by El_Negro

But really, Lelouch and Suzaku have been working towards the same basic goal all along. They wanted to create a better world than the one that Britannia had.

I only dissagree on this point. Neither of them really cared for a better world, they only wanted to achieve their own selfish purposes.

Suzaku wanted to avoid war and death at all costs, even if it meant slavery, discrimination, exploitation, racism, loss of national identity and pride etc etc... He didn't care if the whole nation wanted to fight or die than to be enslaved. Ironically, he became an honorary brittanian in his early teens (most likely had a priviliged life as the former prime minister's son) even though normal japanese people take a very long time to achieve citizen status (the anime is vague on how long but hints imply it's not possible for everyone and it takes years).

Upon enroling in Ashford he soon became well liked and even popular, as Lancelot's pilot, amongst most of his Brittanian classmates and he never suffered the consequenses that his own actions brought upon the rest of the Japanese. He then goes on to serve brittania, hoping that by changing Japan in this way he will be justified for having murdered his father.

Lelouch only wanted to protect his sister and avenge his mother. He never cared about japan's freedom. He abandoned the Black Knights in the middle of the final battle (season 1) to find Nunnally, ultimately bringing about the defeat of his companions and the failure of the rebelion. If he had grown up in another numbered area he would have started a rebelion in that area and never would have cared about Japan. But I suspect there is something else moving Lelouch. I believe his ideal of creating a world for Nunnally is just an excuse, because he never listened to what Nunnally really wanted. I think he was using her to justify his actions.

Ironically it was Lelouch's own actions that lead to Nunnally becoming governor general, it was his geass that caused Suzaku to use fleija, and even if Nunnally hadn't been killed because of fleija then Rolo who was also being used by Lelouch would have killed her. Even more ironic is that his quest to avenge his mother was also pointless, since his mother was alive all along. He sais people need lies to survive, but it was because of his parents' lie that he destroyed everything around him.

I don't hate either of these characters, but I think if either one (or even both) survives in the end it will be sadder than if they both died.