[Manga] Naruto Chapter 653 Discussion Thread

[Hunter]

They weren't completely segregated, they were distrusted and under surveillance during 5 generations. It wasn't until the Kyubi attack that the Elders ordered them to be quarantined at the outskirt of the village which was the final straw droving them to rebellion.
Remove this, add an Uchiha in position of power and there is nothing leading to a revolt.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by james0246

It was the Kyuubi's appearance (and Obito's actions) that ultimately spurred Danzou's actions (or at least gave him the clout to instigate the eventual massacre), so it stands to reason that there would be no massacre in a world were Obito possessed common sense. Additionally, since he would have such strong ties to the village, the Uchiha would never conceive of staging a coup even if they never really liked Obito to begin with (since they never really cared for him, that is why we did not see them in Obito's fantasy, but that need not mean they were still all killed off).

Ultimately, it's a fantasy situation were everything turns out hunky dory and Obito is not controlled by his hate, so I see no reason to believe that Obito would imagine killing off his family.

well in an ideal world, obito wouldn't have MS either and would have just led a mediocre ninja life. those are good points though. but it's still possible that everything could have went to shit anyway. madara knew about nagato. so if obito failed him he could have sent zetsu to get nagato and used him to start akatsuki and use the gedo mazo without any help from obito. madara only let himself die when he was satisfied that he had totally corrupted obito to do his bidding. he would have kept himself alive until someone else like nagato took obito's place. and then the kyuubi stealing, uchiha massacre, etc... would stil happen.

much like ranchan said though, i'm sure obito's fantasy is not deep enough to think about all these scenarios. and if he left madara dissatisfied, madara probably would have had zetsu kill him anyway since obito knew too much

Originally Posted by Hunter

More simply put, too bad for the world that Rin, Rin, Rin, Rin, Rin.

haha yea... who would have thought she was so critical to the entire world back when kakashi gaiden was first released

[Artimus_Prime]

Originally Posted by Hunter

They weren't completely segregated, they were distrusted and under surveillance during 5 generations. It wasn't until the Kyubi attack that the Elders ordered them to be quarantined at the outskirt of the village which was the final straw droving them to rebellion.
Remove this, add an Uchiha in position of power and there is nothing leading to a revolt.

i see was lacking on a few of the details there

but that position of power stuff has always been questionable to me...i mean madara was offered the position of hokage. even before/at the founding of the village distrust for the uchiha (among other things, the power of their sharingan) was so great they were likely not going to be placed in positions of power anyway. madara feared the annihilation of the clan because of this "senju way of life" so to speak. those in later generations who felt the same as madara regardless of the ninetails attack would have still moved forward with the coup. giving them a leadership postion during this time would have only made it easier in my opinion.

[mystogan]

Originally Posted by Casshern

Not necessarily. The rest of this post is pure conjecture...

Itachi had only just acquired his MS. It takes time for each MS jutsu to manifest. He might not have had Amaterasu and Susanoo. The only MS jutsu he had for sure was Tsukuyomi. He had also been living in Konoha his whole life, as a member of root no less. Imo it's unlikely that he would've acquired the 3 relics until he joined Akatsuki, because he couldn't roam freely throughout every country to search for them.

On Obito's side, his first chance to return to Konoha was when Madara let him out of the cave. He had already merged with Zetsu and gained wood release, and shortly after that he witnessed Rin's death, which granted him his own MS. By the time the massacre occurred he already had kamui.

In this situation, in a straight fight, imo Obito should win. He can resist Tsukuyomi with his MS. Even if Itachi had Susanoo and Amaterasu, Kamui is the perfect counter. Zetsu grants Obito superior stamina while Itachi is heavily strained to use each of his doujutsu. The only way Itachi can win is because of his Mary Sue status being equal to Minato. Kishi makes his favored character seem super-intelligent by radically dumbing down the opponent, as he did with Obito vs Minato.

Itachi needed Obito's help to carry out the massacre. It might not have worked out so well if he had to fight his whole clan alone, and then fight Obito too. Obito stops the massacre and becomes a hero. The village acknowledges him. Bam Hokage.

We don't even need to go that far. If Obito returned, Minato wouldn't have died and Kushina would still be the kyuubi's jinchuuriki. When Danzo proposes the massacre, Minato bitchslaps him back into place, bitchslaps the elders, de-ostracizes the Uchiha, and bitchslaps Sarutobi for good measure. Itachi never goes bad. Obito finally gets a girlfriend. The Uchiha work together with the village. Konoha becomes a superpower and Minato brings world peace. The manga is renamed Minato, the tale of a gutsy super-genius that never made any mistake, ever. The End.

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

no way. first off, obito helped itachi do it and it's been stated that even itachi couldn't have done it on his own. secondly, they were on somewhat equal footing with MS eyes. itachi became a member of akatsuki to watch over them and protect konoha so it stands to reason that if he could have killed them all, he would have. the only members who were powerful enough to keep itachi from doing that were nagato and obito. and itachi was too powerful for them to kill him. it was a stalemate basically. itachi had the offensive power, but obito was too fast and the best evader we've ever seen. if itachi went after him back during the massacre, obito would have simply kamui'd away

isn't it just as simple as this was a universe where the massacre happened? for all we know, obito would have sided with konoha like shisui did. it makes sense since he did actually become hokage and there were no uchihas around

WOW, now that's some logically made sequence, well i am convinced to it, when the whole picture drawn out like that, guess obito would have become hokage at some point then.
wonder if Kishi thought it through this much

[Mad Pierrot]

I wonder how much a person can be redeemed according to the series. Nagato saved his village from Hanzo, gathered terrorists, killed lots of people and sacrificed himself restore some lives. Itachi killed lots people to stop a civil war (who knows how many of the victims were actually innocent), and helped Akatsuki with capturing the four tailed host. Obito did everything which included helping Nagato he did to start end the wars. Compared to them, Sasuke could easily redeem himself.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

much like ranchan said though, i'm sure obito's fantasy is not deep enough to think about all these scenarios. and if he left madara dissatisfied, madara probably would have had zetsu kill him anyway since obito knew too much

It's not about the depth of the fantasy, its about the content. Obito wants a fantasy world were he is loved, respected, admired, has a big penis and is powerful. Erasing or killing the Uchiha off doesn't facilitate Obito's fantasy. No, acknowledgment is just as important , so I expect the Uchiha are alive no matter the fantasy world Obito concocts.

[Destined_Fate]

Artimus_Prime

It's very bad elsewhere, especially youtube where the youngest of fans can post things like "Sakura is such a whore and should just die already! Naruto needs to notice Hinata and make babies with her!! Naruhina forever!1!?!!" and get a ton of upvotes. While here the Mods don't really like shipping wars and stamp it out quick before it gets messy.

-

Obito's fantasies. So he wants to be Hokage still even though he just massacred a ton of those that would have been under his care. That guy is really off his rocker, huh?

Though I can see that he could have been Hokage if Rin didn't die and he had returned to Konoha as soon as he could have. Kakashi may have even backed him becoming Hokage in that case.

Course that brings up the issue on Rin. She was clearly in love with Kakashi, how would Obito take Rin getting with Kakashi instead of him? After all, Rin doesn't have a war or even Kakashi going "Evil" to make her notice Obito as more than just a friend as Kakashi would still be in her life.

So circumstances wouldn't be in favor of Obito ever getting with Rin even if he had returned and we all know how badly he reacts when it comes to Rin.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by james0246

It's not about the depth of the fantasy, its about the content. Obito wants a fantasy world were he is loved, respected, admired, has a big penis and is powerful. Erasing or killing the Uchiha off doesn't facilitate Obito's fantasy. No, acknowledgment is just as important , so I expect the Uchiha are alive no matter the fantasy world Obito concocts.

you say it's about the content, but then say you expect the uchiha are alive no matter what. there is no proof of that whatsoever in the content. not only that, but their absence is important. at least it is to me. if his whole clan was alive in his fantasy world, why would they be absent from his visions? of course they could be alive in there, but why would kishi pass up on making a panel where obito stands in front of the uchiha clan as their leader as well as konoha's? it would be a pretty cool panel to pass up on making. just the idea that they all could have been alive still and a part of konoha is pretty powerful

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

Course that brings up the issue on Rin. She was clearly in love with Kakashi, how would Obito take Rin getting with Kakashi instead of him?

when does it ever state kakashi liked rin back? i always figured she had an unreturned crush on kakashi, just like obito had one on her. it's like the naruto < sakura < sasuke crush triangle

[Destined_Fate]

Nowhere, though he was pretty torn up over having to kill her. It was the right thing to do, but he hesitated so Rin forced his hand. So he had some feelings for her and Rin would keep gunning after him if she was still alive. So he naturally may end up returning her feelings over the years considering that after her death he hasn't been in a stable relationship with a woman ever since as far as we know of.

Sorta like how if Sasuke remained the village than Sakura never would have grown past him enough to see how much Naruto has grown and how great a guy he actually is.

When he isn't being a pervert.

[Mad Pierrot]

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

Nowhere, though he was pretty torn up over having to kill her. It was the right thing to do, but he hesitated so Rin forced his hand. So he had some feelings for her and Rin would keep gunning after him if she was still alive. So he naturally may end up returning her feelings over the years considering that after her death he hasn't been in a stable relationship with a woman ever since as far as we know of.

I don't see why it has to be be romantic to make sense. It looked to me more like Kakashi stopped being so cold after Obito's apparent death and became more friendly. Is the friendzone impossible to keep?

[Destined_Fate]

Persistence. Kakashi has no one else really gunning for him or has a strong emotional attachment to another girl but Rin. So if he settled down it would be with Rin whom he became very protective of after what happened with Obito. Obito showing up again one day to be Hokage wouldn't change the stance he took concerning her and he already knows Rin loves him even after Obito "died" for them. So no way Rin would stop gunning for Kakashi even if returned Obito there.

This would be torture for Obito, especially if Kakashi doesn't return Rin's feelings as than Rin wouldn't be happy nor would she get with Obito even if Kakashi rejected her.

I don't see how this could ever end happily for Obito.

Either Rin gets with Kakashi and not Obito or Kakashi rejects her thus she becomes sad and still doesn't return Obito's feelings. So, either way he suffers while Rin only suffers if Kakashi rejects her.

[Artimus_Prime]

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

Artimus_Prime

It's very bad elsewhere, especially youtube where the youngest of fans can post things like "Sakura is such a whore and should just die already! Naruto needs to notice Hinata and make babies with her!! Naruhina forever!1!?!!" and get a ton of upvotes. While here the Mods don't really like shipping wars and stamp it out quick before it gets messy

i see...

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

Course that brings up the issue on Rin. She was clearly in love with Kakashi, how would Obito take Rin getting with Kakashi instead of him?

i dont know guys...perhaps im reading 653 wrong but it looks like Rin actually reciprocated feelings for obito. i think she at least cared for him on the level somewhere between madly in love and more than a teammate...

and i think kakashis emotion regarding killing her has more to do with him not keeping his promise..

[Destined_Fate]

I think that's to show she understood that Obito loved her, but her heart belonged to Kakashi. It would take something dramatic for her to start developing romantic feelings for Obito and her feelings for Kakashi to change.

Like Kakashi becoming a Missing Nin by running away with a freaky snake guy that gave him a rad magic hickey than trying to kill her multiple times when he sees her only for Obito to save her every time.

[GDB]

I like how Obito kept his crushed and scarred face in his fantasy. Apparently ninjutsu can fix old and wrinkled, but cannot fix scars.

[Ulquiorra]

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

Artimus_Prime

It's very bad elsewhere, especially youtube where the youngest of fans can post things like "Sakura is such a whore and should just die already! Naruto needs to notice Hinata and make babies with her!! Naruhina forever!1!?!!" and get a ton of upvotes. While here the Mods don't really like shipping wars and stamp it out quick before it gets messy.

Which is fine. Shippers gonna ship. It is when they fight over chapters like this one, that fans get fed up with them. Because Kishi cares little about romance amoung the kids, and is not interested in anyone's lovelife, shippers are left to grasp at parallels and symbolism in lieu of any actual manga facts. Some of the stuff shippers come up with is hilarious.

So Rin's appearance then must be dissected and interpreted as somehow pertaining to Naruto x Hinata or Naruto x Sakura. When in reality, it only deals with the Obito storyline. The last real bit of shipping evidence was when Zombie Minato compared Sakura to Kushina. Finding a girl like dear old mom is still desirable in Japan. And generally desirable for a manga character.

[Artimus_Prime]

Originally Posted by Ulquiorra

Which is fine. Shippers gonna ship. It is when they fight over chapters like this one, that fans get fed up with them. Because Kishi cares little about romance amoung the kids, and is not interested in anyone's lovelife, shippers are left to grasp at parallels and symbolism in lieu of any actual manga facts. Some of the stuff shippers come up with is hilarious.

So Rin's appearance then must be dissected and interpreted as somehow pertaining to Naruto x Hinata or Naruto x Sakura. When in reality, it only deals with the Obito storyline. The last real bit of shipping evidence was when Zombie Minato compared Sakura to Kushina. Finding a girl like dear old mom is still desirable in Japan. And generally desirable for a manga character.

yeah even kushina herself said to do so in her last words to baby naruto.

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

I think that's to show she understood that Obito loved her, but her heart belonged to Kakashi. It would take something dramatic for her to start developing romantic feelings for Obito and her feelings for Kakashi to change.

Like Kakashi becoming a Missing Nin by running away with a freaky snake guy that gave him a rad magic hickey than trying to kill her multiple times when he sees her only for Obito to save her every time.

is this explicity noted in the manga? her love for kakashi that is...im blanking and dont feel like looking it up

[Destined_Fate]

Oh, shippers may ship. It's only when things get nasty that issues arise. I personally don't see why the NaruSaku and NaruHina fans have to fight all the time and keep discrediting each other. It only causes even neutral bystanders to take sides between all the bickering.

Personally I'm not really aligned with either, but I do tend take the side of NaruSaku fans more than NaruHina fans because the NaruHina fans say the most vile things about Sakura whenever they can. It's like both sides don't understand that the guy writing the Manga is a huge troll who intentionally put in scenes for both characters with Naruto because it keeps people talking. Which in turn gets people to buy merchandise of their chosen ship to "show their support" or the such.

I understand the concept of it being desirable to want be married to someone like your mother. The manga reflects this with how Kushina is very much like Sakura and how she says that Naruto should marry someone like her. Or Minato pointing out the similarities. This was intentionally put in as Sakura's character was made before Kushina's character and not the other way around. Whether this leads to anything or not depends on what the top dog decides. For all we know it could just those looking at that being trolled.

But the angry shippers, in their crazy shipping war, seem to think that if they voice their love for their character and hate towards the rival that it may sway things their way.

Though I guess this is the curse of Naruto being so popular that there are far more fans to take sides. Which in turn means younger fans who aren't disciplined and say the most filthy and vile things that come to mind first on the internet without thinking things through first.

As for Rin...

Well she's a Medical Ninja like Sakura was. Kakashi seems somewhat like Sasuke when he was younger. While Obito is pretty much the Naruto of the group. This seems intentional that Kakashi's group would mirror Naruto's group. If anything it showcases that we're who we are because of the circumstances in our lives. I'm sure if Naruto and Obito were switched the results may have been the same as what happens to you defines who you become.

-

After Obito's "death" she makes a declaration of her feelings to Kakashi but than stops. I wouldn't be surprised if she hated herself because she still loved Kakashi and didn't love Obito even after his "death".

[Eragon]

Which is why you always go for crack-ships. They are always peaceful and way more fun

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by Hunter

... and there is nothing stopping Obito to become Hokage once Yondaime steps down (particularly since in this world Itachi never gained the MS)

This is the only part where i disagree, i think Itachi's genius was so great that even without MS he was a better ninja than Obito. Also why would Obito gain MS if Itachi can't? If i remember correctly Obito gained MS by watching Rin die, while Itachi apparently gained it without experiencing a mental stress of that level (assuming he got it before he agreed to Danzou's plan of killing his own clan). Yondaime could have been hokage for a good 20 years and by that time Itachi would have reached his prime and be the number one candidate.

BTW if there was an alternate timeline i would have liked to see a team 7 where Itachi is Naruto's sensei

[Cookie-Monster]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

This is the only part where i disagree, i think Itachi's genius was so great that even without MS he was a better ninja than Obito. Also why would Obito gain MS if Itachi can't? If i remember correctly Obito gained MS by watching Rin die, while Itachi apparently gained it without experiencing a mental stress of that level (assuming he got it before he agreed to Danzou's plan of killing his own clan). Yondaime could have been hokage for a good 20 years and by that time Itachi would have reached his prime and be the number one candidate.

BTW if there was an alternate timeline i would have liked to see a team 7 where Itachi is Naruto's sensei

I thought Itachi got MS through shisui's death? Who knows anymore. The MS storyline is a soap opera on its own.