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Old 2014-06-18, 05:57   Link #641
silvercover
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anime Online View Post
I don't find the idea that Tokaku is trying to test whether she was influenced by Haru by trying to kill Haru sensible at all. If she decided not to kill Haru in the end, does it mean Tokaku is influenced (or mind-controlled) by Haru or if Tokaku has found some reason not to kill Haru?

The thing is: even we don't know how we arrive by our decisions. If you suddenly feel like eating KFC for dinner, how can you tell whether you genuinely wanted to eat KFC for dinner, or if someone made you think that way? You can rationalize it out: you haven't had KFC for a while, or KFC has a new promotion, or whatever. At the end, that merely shows your subconsciousness had already made the decision to eat KFC while your consciousness play catch-up by coming up with reasons to justify your decision.
when has an assassin ever been sensible throughout the anime?
if anything, this brings this to a full circle seeing how tokaku made a pretty moronic(at first) decision.

but still, it does have the better logic at determining if she was manipulated or not. cause from the sounds of it, the power can only slow down/loosen the enemy instead of stopping them, and it only brings a strong feeling of protection for the other people around them.
this is really the best way to be sure of it, had tokaku just remained idle she'd never know it, she could remain by haru's side but how would she be sure she does care? indeed, if you consider taking out the shipping goggles, it makes sense considering how quickly tokaku just got moved to protecting haru.

I accept this a bit easier than you guys because the relationships here are pretty, well, weak id say. not quite as strongly built like the manga. there's the subtly/small interaction that was cut off, that wouldnt really impact the plot, but it would effect how strong the bond of the two would be.
haru, throughout the anime, has turned quite gullible as well as letting her guard down too easily not only on the other assassins but also haru(like the library bombing incident... why oh why didnt you insist haru to wait it out).

its a lot different in the manga, as tokaku has really shown to be sharp and careful. even around haru, where she tries to probe her for information and knows that there's a lot more into this situation than what she's been told.
BUT, tokaku still continues to protect haru. this is pretty important to note, that despite all of those suspicion she still keeps it up.

if the manga tried to pull up what the anime did here, id also be skeptical like you guys. however, as it stands, this is the anime so its a lot more believable to me. haru and tokaku's bond is fairly weak in the anime, id say the manga has the better one even though the anime is way ahead.
also, im with the belief that this is an anime original direction, the manga probably does things a lot differently.


also, listen to tokaku's teacher. the guy pretty much already made a good advice for tokaku to follow.
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Old 2014-06-18, 08:05   Link #642
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Most people are anime viewers so they judge it as such.
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Old 2014-06-18, 09:23   Link #643
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silvercover View Post
when has an assassin ever been sensible throughout the anime?
if anything, this brings this to a full circle seeing how tokaku made a pretty moronic(at first) decision.
What moronic decision are you referring to?

I hope you're not referring to her decision to protect Haru because that decision was based on an obvious and understandable fondness for Haru, and that decision clearly worked out in the end. Seems like a sensible decision to me.


Quote:
but still, it does have the better logic at determining if she was manipulated or not.
Not really. I really don't see how Tokaku's latest actions would believably help her to tell the difference between having been magically charmed/crudely manipulated all this time, or having simply developed a more free will-based fondness for someone. Oh, I'm pretty confident the next episode will try to make us think this is happening, but I doubt I'll find it believable myself.

I agree with Anime Online - There's no real way to tell the difference here. You can search your own heart, but even then, it's possible you'll miss something. It's also theoretically possible that Haru is using some form of mental manipulation to plant incorrect ideas in Tokaku's mind.


Quote:
this is really the best way to be sure of it, had tokaku just remained idle she'd never know it, she could remain by haru's side but how would she be sure she does care?
It's called trusting a person. All relationships, no matter the circumstances, require that.


Quote:
indeed, if you consider taking out the shipping goggles, it makes sense considering how quickly tokaku just got moved to protecting haru.
A person can grow attached to new people pretty quickly. I don't find that odd or unrealistic in and of itself. Heck, a Madoka Magica fan of all people shouldn't have a problem with this.


Quote:

I accept this a bit easier than you guys because the relationships here are pretty, well, weak id say. not quite as strongly built like the manga. there's the subtly/small interaction that was cut off, that wouldnt really impact the plot, but it would effect how strong the bond of the two would be.
Haru/Tokaku hasn't been as strong a yuri relationship as I had hoped, but it's had many good moments. They did have a kiss of sorts, which Tokaku blushed over after the fact. Speaking of the episode where that kiss happened... If Haru didn't sincerely care about Tokaku, then she wouldn't have done what she did in that episode. Haru risked her own life to save Tokaku's there. It's pretty disappointing that Tokaku has either entirely forgotten this, or is not able to create a relatively simply logic chain from what happened here to concluding that Haru really does care about her and so she shouldn't be turning on Haru now over this Primer reveal.


Quote:
also, im with the belief that this is an anime original direction, the manga probably does things a lot differently.
If the manga does things a lot differently, that'll just make it even worse. We all know that source material trumps anime adaptations, so what we're watching would be rendered non-canon if the manga does things a lot differently.

Here's the cold, hard truth of the matter, as I see it - The anime wanted some pretext to have a Haru vs. Tokaku conflict. Fine, I get it. I get the "plot twisty!" appeal to the idea. But you could have come up with a much more compelling scenario to make this happen than what's being used here.


Here's an idea that I think would have been way better:

Nio tells Tokaku that it's impossible for both Haru and Tokaku to survive. Only one person can graduate Class Black (Nio herself would be an exception to the rule since she's just a facilitator for this event).

Tokaku has to choose between killing Haru, or sacrificing her own life.

A tearful Tokaku initially chooses her own life over Haru's, and the two fight - So yay! We have our very understandable and tense pretext for Tokaku vs. Haru.

Now, during the fight Tokaku finds herself unable to deal the finishing blow. Nio shows up and says, "So, you can't finish her off, eh? I hope you realize that means you'll have to be executed once the school year is over if Haru doesn't kill you herself."

Tokaku replies "If that's what has to happen in order for Haru to live, then so be it."

Haru cries dramatically over Tokaku's deeply moving choice/words here.

Nio then reveals "Good job, Tokaku, you passed the test!"

Tokaku and Haru both go "Huh?!"

"The Primer must have a protector willing to die for her. That person who's willing to die for her will hence become her protector going forward." Nio says.

Yay! Happy, strong yuri ending.
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Old 2014-06-18, 20:28   Link #644
Miraluka
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^
Way too much cliche even for this show. Can't see it happening.
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Old 2014-06-18, 20:38   Link #645
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miraluka View Post
^
Way too much cliche even for this show. Can't see it happening.
How is it cliche? I don't recall seeing this sort of scenario happen much in anime.

In any event, don't you think what I suggested would be more sensible than what we are in fact getting?
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Old 2014-06-18, 20:50   Link #646
Miraluka
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Test of Trust.

Or something like that happens and I can't remember well but TV tropes must has the exact term(can't remember it well because I'm not into it that much).


Oh yeah, kind of about it being sensible but not emotional to me though.
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Old 2014-06-19, 17:19   Link #647
silvercover
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
What moronic decision are you referring to?

I hope you're not referring to her decision to protect Haru because that decision was based on an obvious and understandable fondness for Haru, and that decision clearly worked out in the end. Seems like a sensible decision to me.
I meant deciding to assassinate haru in the last ep.
it looks idiotic at first, but then you consider the logic on how its one of the best ways to reveal the truth.

Quote:
Not really. I really don't see how Tokaku's latest actions would believably help her to tell the difference between having been magically charmed/crudely manipulated all this time, or having simply developed a more free will-based fondness for someone. Oh, I'm pretty confident the next episode will try to make us think this is happening, but I doubt I'll find it believable myself.

I agree with Anime Online - There's no real way to tell the difference here. You can search your own heart, but even then, it's possible you'll miss something. It's also theoretically possible that Haru is using some form of mental manipulation to plant incorrect ideas in Tokaku's mind.
except for an assassin attempt of course.
from what's been shown at least, the ability is only able to let the assassin go easy on her, so far nothing has shown to suggest that it has made the assassins themselves abandon their objective and protect haru.

it seems to only really work on bystanders or people who's close to haru, otherwise there's not much need for bodyguards or anything at all since you could just stop the assassin.

Quote:
It's called trusting a person. All relationships, no matter the circumstances, require that.
yeah but tokaku's giving a bit too much of trust, based on anime at least. tokaku, who's clearly one of the most anti-sociable and sharp assassin around, to easily just go along with whatever haru is doing?

said this before already, but in the manga, tokaku is not that all taken in with haru. she still protects haru, but has her suspicions, as she should be due to her background. she's consistent in being a trained assassin, but has shown to have a good heart to be protecting haru even when in doubt.

Quote:
A person can grow attached to new people pretty quickly. I don't find that odd or unrealistic in and of itself. Heck, a Madoka Magica fan of all people shouldn't have a problem with this.
so tokaku is a yandere?
well thats not a bad thing for me though, as it would certainly make a good alternative from what you guys seem to like.

anime tokaku is pretty out of league in the yandere department though, perhaps if it was the manga one...

Quote:
Haru/Tokaku hasn't been as strong a yuri relationship as I had hoped, but it's had many good moments. They did have a kiss of sorts, which Tokaku blushed over after the fact. Speaking of the episode where that kiss happened... If Haru didn't sincerely care about Tokaku, then she wouldn't have done what she did in that episode. Haru risked her own life to save Tokaku's there. It's pretty disappointing that Tokaku has either entirely forgotten this, or is not able to create a relatively simply logic chain from what happened here to concluding that Haru really does care about her and so she shouldn't be turning on Haru now over this Primer reveal.
honestly, as I said before, that this isnt so much as a test of trust or feelings between the two but for tokaku development.
I believe tokaku believes that haru genuinely cares for her as she's already seen her good nature even with the other assassins. but she's doing this to prove to herself she honestly cares for haru.

Quote:
If the manga does things a lot differently, that'll just make it even worse. We all know that source material trumps anime adaptations, so what we're watching would be rendered non-canon if the manga does things a lot differently.

Here's the cold, hard truth of the matter, as I see it - The anime wanted some pretext to have a Haru vs. Tokaku conflict. Fine, I get it. I get the "plot twisty!" appeal to the idea. But you could have come up with a much more compelling scenario to make this happen than what's being used here.
the whole anime up til now was pretty lame... if anything, going with an anime original ending is gonna salvage it, perhaps even do better.

no not really, I believe that both the anime and manga are doing a tokaku vs haru in their own way.

im just saying its anime original since the reasons and situation would probably be different considering how the manga focuses a lot more into the humane aspect while the anime is more into the assassinations.

to put it well, for the manga, I think the reveal about haru would be different, or have more reasons than how the anime is doing it(having that special power). it would lead to other reasons for conflict, perhaps even haru would initiate the conflict instead.

Quote:
Here's an idea that I think would have been way better:

Nio tells Tokaku that it's impossible for both Haru and Tokaku to survive. Only one person can graduate Class Black (Nio herself would be an exception to the rule since she's just a facilitator for this event).

Tokaku has to choose between killing Haru, or sacrificing her own life.

A tearful Tokaku initially chooses her own life over Haru's, and the two fight - So yay! We have our very understandable and tense pretext for Tokaku vs. Haru.

Now, during the fight Tokaku finds herself unable to deal the finishing blow. Nio shows up and says, "So, you can't finish her off, eh? I hope you realize that means you'll have to be executed once the school year is over if Haru doesn't kill you herself."

Tokaku replies "If that's what has to happen in order for Haru to live, then so be it."

Haru cries dramatically over Tokaku's deeply moving choice/words here.

Nio then reveals "Good job, Tokaku, you passed the test!"

Tokaku and Haru both go "Huh?!"

"The Primer must have a protector willing to die for her. That person who's willing to die for her will hence become her protector going forward." Nio says.

Yay! Happy, strong yuri ending.
only if once that happens, as tokaku and haru go outside to freedom, they got shot behind by nio and dies.
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Old 2014-06-19, 23:43   Link #648
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Spoiler for Akuma no Riddle FINAL:
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Old 2014-06-20, 02:58   Link #649
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Old 2014-06-20, 11:25   Link #650
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anime Online View Post
I don't find the idea that Tokaku is trying to test whether she was influenced by Haru by trying to kill Haru sensible at all. If she decided not to kill Haru in the end, does it mean Tokaku is influenced (or mind-controlled) by Haru or if Tokaku has found some reason not to kill Haru?
You forgot the possibility of Tokaku killing off Haru for real.
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Old 2014-06-20, 11:32   Link #651
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Spoiler for Final episode:
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Old 2014-06-20, 12:16   Link #652
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#12 Final

Spoiler for plot:
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Old 2014-06-20, 12:19   Link #653
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wait..what!? is that how they ending it.....huh?

Well thats my impression of the episode

The manga will probably end totally different so i guess a ending like this wont seem so bad in comparison.
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Old 2014-06-20, 12:33   Link #654
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Last episode really is something. The Azuma weilding katana is actially the real one wanted to kill Haru, Nio pretending to be Azuma save Haru from the real Azuma and kill her later on. From the start i thought the Azuma appeared from the start is fake, lol seriously she is the real one !!
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Old 2014-06-20, 12:46   Link #655
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Yeah

and she killed Haru to validate her own free will..
that was messed up
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Old 2014-06-20, 13:25   Link #656
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A titanium rib? What? Nobody ended up dying either. I was surprised to see the two from the Romeo and Juliet episode still alive. I thought one was poisoned and the other was stabbed. The ending was really nice. Solid finale.
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Old 2014-06-20, 13:49   Link #657
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The fact that everyone was alive is really a surprise and the fact that Haru manage to survive was also a surprise and it was stupid.
The part with Azuma and the fake Azuma (Nio) talking while fighting was really confusing.
In the end I could wish the ending was better.
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Old 2014-06-20, 14:42   Link #658
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That was ridiculous. The Tokaku who tried to kill Haru was the real one. Haru survived due to being lucky. Then the two still had a great relationship and no explanation was given? The riddles were also less than meaningless in the whole show. In the end the guy with the dices didn't do anything in the plot.

And everybody survived? That's just cheap, especially for the two Romeo and Juliet girls. Some of the girls got kicked out from Class Black very early on and they still "graduated"?
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Old 2014-06-20, 15:04   Link #659
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I'm gonna hope for the manga to have a better ending and development
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Old 2014-06-20, 15:28   Link #660
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Spoiler for Akuma no Riddle FINAL:
I wouldn't mind the ending if they hadn't
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