High School DxD [LN/M] - Discussion about Other Topics

[saucerKing]

honestly, dimension lost should be the strongest or second strongest, climate boy has nothing on "drop you on a black hole the other side of the galaxy" but yeah, annihilation maker should be occupying the top 3 and the true longinus on the 4th spot but i feel like we need to know more about what zenith tempest cant manipulate.

zenith tempest supposedly can manipulate "all elements on nature" so anything not artificial should be fair game no? can dulio manipulate darkness and light since they are part of nature? what about all types of radiation? dark matter? magic itself since nature itself probably has magic on the air or something? ki? the ley lines? gravity? magnetism? carbon? i feel like zenith tempest should be able to do so much more than throw ice spears, tornados and fire. and if it is like that it would not be a surprise if it was the second strongest and weather manipulation is just part of the kit.

annihilation maker is outright stuff of nightmares, and of all the longinus IMO is the one whose balance breaker acts on the biggest scale. we saw what the jabberwocky and bandersnatch can do, they are a bunch of mini-trihexa around satan class and even if leonardo passed out of exhaustion those things kept going whitout sign of stopping so it seems they are self-sufficient. you know what that means? it means that if cao cao was smarter, once leonardo reached BxB he could've made super monsters, tell them to stay still, wait for leonardo be ready to make more and rinse and repeat until he got an army of them. its a BxB that does not consume stamina after activation, had it not been for the sake of the plot this would of been so much more destructive.

and dimension lost, according to azazel is the strongest sacred gear related to dimensions and barriers. it can reach the scale where entire countries can be transferred on one go, it can clearly teleport people stronger than its user since georg moved azazel and the gremory team so he can probably transport anything as long as he get the mist to surround them. and it can send things to another dimension entirely, which should be marginally further than the sun. what is stopping georg from sneak attacking someone and dropping them inside a supernova or a blackhole or the red giant Betelgeuse?

now compare the true longinus to that.what can it do? release god-class holy attacks? incinerate anthem can do that too, be very poky? canis lykaon flat out beats it in that regard and it comes whit god-class flames too. the seven treasures? half of them are shit and the other half can be avoided if you are not a total dumbass, truth idea? just punch the guy before he ends chanting, its not like they can hide while glowing as if they were a lighthouse.

a god-killing weapon? probably if you count that time it pierced ophis, the strongest longinus? no way man, the other 3 have powers that make it look bad and the sheer versatility, hax, or scale at which they work make them actually look like world-ending threats. poking people has nothing on ripping out the carbon from their bodies (zenith tempest) or creating an army of god-killing monsters whit a shit ton of powers which can self-replicate (annihilation maker) or just having the universe itself as your weapon and trashcan (dimension lost)

so i agree, annihilation maker should be the second or third strongest, the first would be between zenith tempest and dimension lost depending on what exactly are their limits. IMO if "power over dimensions" means dimensional manipulation then dimension lost wins.

[godz]

dimension lost has no offensive capabilities and according to azazel its strongest ability is to send a small country to the dimensional gap where it would destroy them and according to the same azazel no carrier has reached that level ... everything you said is exaggerated for dimension lost.

tartarus overcame the power of dimension lost and did not throw any of our protagonists into the sun, only tried to seal them in his body for all eternity.

zenitsth tempest controls the weather, not the elements of nature.

Anihilation maker if I'm right, so lucky for the protagonists what pre manipulation of shalba showed was not so surprising ... since the creatures of volume 9 should not be stronger than a middle class demon.

those limitations that ichie made do not exceed true longinus, even now when there are 18 longinus

[saucerKing]

it has no direct offensive capabilities. sending something to the dimensional gap seems pretty offensive to me. and again, travelling dimensions is a much higher feat than sending something to the sun, we can quantify the distance to the sun but we cant do that whit a whole different dimension.

tartarus did not do that because plot, he could've also fought along whit erebus and win then and there but didn't, does that mean tartarus is completely incapable of fighting if there is someone else fighting? and all tartarus did was take control over the already existing artificial space, not hijack georg and steal his power. so again, if sending countries to the dimensional gap is possible, then sending a single human-sized target to the sun is definitely possible too.

[Zenith Tempest]. The Top-tier Longinus that can control weather, and control any sort of attribute. With the way he uses it, he’s able to be in control during appropriate situations. Since it turns out like this even inside a building.

in the wikia it also says "and elemental attributes that exist in nature", if you dont think the wikia is valid then dulio literally can control any sort of attribute, among which technically in DxD world it would not be a stretch to say magic itself is included is included. so no, and dulio clearly has shown to use his longinus to control things that are clearly not weather phenomena, unless you think there is a weather that makes bubbles that show you your dearest memories.

and that seems more the user being weak than the longinus being weak, because i doubt annihilation maker is absolutely capped at middle class monsters otherwise it would not be a longinus, azazel said that creating god killing monsters whit it was possible, hard and would require a lot of training and experience but it was possible. so if you can make one, you can make two, and then keep making them and storing them until you gradually build an army, and an army of god-killing monsters which target the enemy weakness make the true longinus seem like a joke.

and this is about the longinus themselves, not their current users. leonardo leaves much to be desired being a plot device, and georg was flat out stated to not have a good grasp on his own abilities nor is there any actual mention of him improving. they are not the peak of their longinus.

except the bandersnatch and jabberwocky have shown things that exceed the true longinus. they devastated and devoured their way trough whole regions of the underworld while spawning endless miniature clones of themselves whitout tiring at all, they needed to a specific magic formula to nerf them so the devils could kill them at all, the jabberwocky was fighting all of sirzechs peerage minus sirzechs himself and was going to eventually win a war of attrition. how does the true longinus compare to that? how does the true longinus compare to zenith tempest which dulio used to create a bubble that could contain trihexa for a few seconds? how does the true longinus compare to dimension lost that could trap the whole gremory group and half of vali team there? the only real god-killing feat it has is against ophis, which if you take into account means yes it can kill a god... so can the other longinus, canis lykaon can do most of what it does better. divine dividing can either outright win whit a touch or JD the ass of a god too, BG if working as announced would make a mere ultimate-class capable of moping the floor whit a chief god.

the true longinus only power is being very sharp and very holy, and its surpassed in both via feats by canis lykaon which can cut practically anything and has god-class flames. it does not even shows anything remotely close to world-class powers nor can be used that way at all, since its probably impossible to use truth idea to destroy the world.

edit: also, for dimension lost, IIRC its directly stated to be able to have incomparable space related powers. it probably has indirect offensive capabilities, it might not throw lasers or flames at you but it probably can do something that indirectly kills you like teleporting its victim whit separated limbs, or teleporting them inside concrete, or create a device barrier whose only purpose is exploding and taking everyone in the dimension to hell whit them.

[godz]

Originally Posted by saucerKing

it has no direct offensive capabilities. sending something to the dimensional gap seems pretty offensive to me. and again, travelling dimensions is a much higher feat than sending something to the sun, we can quantify the distance to the sun but we cant do that whit a whole different dimension.

tartarus did not do that because plot, he could've also fought along whit erebus and win then and there but didn't, does that mean tartarus is completely incapable of fighting if there is someone else fighting? and all tartarus did was take control over the already existing artificial space, not hijack georg and steal his power. so again, if sending countries to the dimensional gap is possible, then sending a single human-sized target to the sun is definitely possible too.

[Zenith Tempest]. The Top-tier Longinus that can control weather, and control any sort of attribute. With the way he uses it, he’s able to be in control during appropriate situations. Since it turns out like this even inside a building.

in the wikia it also says "and elemental attributes that exist in nature", if you dont think the wikia is valid then dulio literally can control any sort of attribute, among which technically in DxD world it would not be a stretch to say magic itself is included is included. so no, and dulio clearly has shown to use his longinus to control things that are clearly not weather phenomena, unless you think there is a weather that makes bubbles that show you your dearest memories.

and that seems more the user being weak than the longinus being weak, because i doubt annihilation maker is absolutely capped at middle class monsters otherwise it would not be a longinus, azazel said that creating god killing monsters whit it was possible, hard and would require a lot of training and experience but it was possible. so if you can make one, you can make two, and then keep making them and storing them until you gradually build an army, and an army of god-killing monsters which target the enemy weakness make the true longinus seem like a joke.

and this is about the longinus themselves, not their current users. leonardo leaves much to be desired being a plot device, and georg was flat out stated to not have a good grasp on his own abilities nor is there any actual mention of him improving. they are not the peak of their longinus.

except the bandersnatch and jabberwocky have shown things that exceed the true longinus. they devastated and devoured their way trough whole regions of the underworld while spawning endless miniature clones of themselves whitout tiring at all, they needed to a specific magic formula to nerf them so the devils could kill them at all, the jabberwocky was fighting all of sirzechs peerage minus sirzechs himself and was going to eventually win a war of attrition. how does the true longinus compare to that? how does the true longinus compare to zenith tempest which dulio used to create a bubble that could contain trihexa for a few seconds? how does the true longinus compare to dimension lost that could trap the whole gremory group and half of vali team there? the only real god-killing feat it has is against ophis, which if you take into account means yes it can kill a god... so can the other longinus, canis lykaon can do most of what it does better. divine dividing can either outright win whit a touch or JD the ass of a god too, BG if working as announced would make a mere ultimate-class capable of moping the floor whit a chief god.

the true longinus only power is being very sharp and very holy, and its surpassed in both via feats by canis lykaon which can cut practically anything and has god-class flames. it does not even shows anything remotely close to world-class powers nor can be used that way at all, since its probably impossible to use truth idea to destroy the world.

edit: also, for dimension lost, IIRC its directly stated to be able to have incomparable space related powers. it probably has indirect offensive capabilities, it might not throw lasers or flames at you but it probably can do something that indirectly kills you like teleporting its victim whit separated limbs, or teleporting them inside concrete, or create a device barrier whose only purpose is exploding and taking everyone in the dimension to hell whit them.

The rest of the arguments I can give you, but dimension lost sending the sun seems like an exaggeration ...

Since if that were the case, all magic that could travel between dimensions would be op and several duels will be decided on who sends his rival to the sun faster , and even that it prevented one of the gods of the underworld from transferring issei to the sun? You must stop giving so much credit to a light novel echi harem.

Ichie is limited to longinus, so that the phrase of true longinus how the strongest does not make sensei.

[saucerKing]

Originally Posted by godz

The rest of the arguments I can give you, but dimension lost sending the sun seems like an exaggeration ...

Since if that were the case, all magic that could travel between dimensions would be op and several duels will be decided on who sends his rival to the sun faster , and even that it prevented one of the gods of the underworld from transferring issei to the sun? You must stop giving so much credit to a light novel echi harem.

Ichie is limited to longinus, so that the phrase of true longinus how the strongest does not make sensei.

if sending a whole country and everyone in it to another dimension is possible, how come sending a single person to the sun, which is actually closer than a whole different dimension, is an exaggeration?

because ishibumi did not think what teleportation magic would imply to the story. we are told the anti-monsters cant be stopped as they advance the underworld, that they are immune to space-time magic, yet shalba moved them trough space, then grayfia does the exact same. vali takes hours to go to azi dahaka despite the fact that a single spell would send him there instantly. we also have walburga and hades, who exploit this to escape or avoid attacks but when it starts making them too hard as enemies ishibumi chickens out and has tobio somehow instantly sever all walburga circles and hades just stop doing it. hell hades says they are surrounded despite the fact that they could just teleport away since its not like the alliance can really track them if they cant track even nebiros or rizevim.

really, saying "if it was possible the villains would've used it" is not a valid argument when we have samael or alpecca tyrant being used in such a stupid way. dimension lost get used dumbly because georg is said to not have a true grasp on his abilities and because he would be too OP if he acted smartly. hell, that is the whole reason all top tier longinus aside of the true longinus get shafted so hard, because the other three are something issei cant just dodge like a spear.

so you agree that the true longinus is in fact not the strongest longinus?

[Lucidrago]

Originally Posted by saucerKing

if sending a whole country and everyone in it to another dimension is possible, how come sending a single person to the sun, which is actually closer than a whole different dimension, is an exaggeration?

because ishibumi did not think what teleportation magic would imply to the story. we are told the anti-monsters cant be stopped as they advance the underworld, that they are immune to space-time magic, yet shalba moved them trough space, then grayfia does the exact same. vali takes hours to go to azi dahaka despite the fact that a single spell would send him there instantly. we also have walburga and hades, who exploit this to escape or avoid attacks but when it starts making them too hard as enemies ishibumi chickens out and has tobio somehow instantly sever all walburga circles and hades just stop doing it. hell hades says they are surrounded despite the fact that they could just teleport away since its not like the alliance can really track them if they cant track even nebiros or rizevim.

really, saying "if it was possible the villains would've used it" is not a valid argument when we have samael or alpecca tyrant being used in such a stupid way. dimension lost get used dumbly because georg is said to not have a true grasp on his abilities and because he would be too OP if he acted smartly. hell, that is the whole reason all top tier longinus aside of the true longinus get shafted so hard, because the other three are something issei cant just dodge like a spear.

so you agree that the true longinus is in fact not the strongest longinus?

One thing though. When has it been shown that Dimension Lost can transfer something or someone within the same space/dimension? Because when we've seen the fog being used it's been to transfer from one dimensional space to another which is usually artificially generated. So we really have nothing to suggest that Dimension Lost can transfer someone to the sun, moon, or a black hole from the Earth or a dimensional space.

So Cao Cao is able to drop fallen angel leaders and Maou-class devils with a single stab of True Longinus yet it isn't the strongest?

[Xuanwu]

Originally Posted by Lucidrago

One thing though. When has it been shown that Dimension Lost can transfer something or someone within the same space/dimension? Because when we've seen the fog being used it's been to transfer from one dimensional space to another which is usually artificially generated.

There's the Sacred Gear “Forest of Bewilderment” which did something like that and seems similar to the ability of Dimension Lost.

True to his words, Satanael snapped his fingers once.

Subsequently, a mist began to spring forth throughout the area.

Satanael spoke.

“It’s a transference-type Sacred Gear.”

Barakiel was thinking back upon the possessor among the “Abyss Team” Satanael had brought along who manifested the “Forest of Bewilderment”.

By means of crafting its ability into a part of the forest, it was something capable of guiding those who were treading within it to whatever place the user wanted.

After a short while, he sensed the presence of several people from within the mist.

The ones who appeared from within the mist were——.

“……Barakiel-sensei?”

It was the four person group consisting of Ikuse Tobio, Minagawa Natsume, Toujou Sae, and Nanadaru Shigune——.

Satanael displayed a smile once he realized that they had been brought there.

“Now then, let’s finish what I have to do.”

Since Dimension Lost is supposed to be the strongest Sacred Gear of its type, it's not out of the question for it to be capable of doing something similar.

[saucerKing]

Originally Posted by Lucidrago

One thing though. When has it been shown that Dimension Lost can transfer something or someone within the same space/dimension? Because when we've seen the fog being used it's been to transfer from one dimensional space to another which is usually artificially generated. So we really have nothing to suggest that Dimension Lost can transfer someone to the sun, moon, or a black hole from the Earth or a dimensional space.

So Cao Cao is able to drop fallen angel leaders and Maou-class devils with a single stab of True Longinus yet it isn't the strongest?

do we have a reason to believe it cant? in fact georg does exactly this in vol 12 when he escapes whit cao cao, he can teleport people around the same dimension.

cao cao, who is recognized as one of the, if not the strongest, wielder of the true longinus in history who trained for years and he still needs to land the hit without being murdered. while leonardo, who previously did not show anything impressive and is like thirteen, when forced past his limits created 12 super-monsters that ranged from ultimate-class to satan-class whit one being nerfed trihexa.

if you had someone as talented as cao cao whit just as much experience using annihilation maker you would have a guy who can make dozens upon dozens of things like the jabberwocky or something even worse over time, hid them somewhere and then show up whit an army of them. and its not like cao cao could one-shot satans from the moment he got it.

one is a guy whit a very dangerous spear but still one person in one place, the other is a guy who could potentially attack three or five places at the same time whit monsters just as dangerous as the spear which can regenerate and create armies of their own. see the difference?

[Marvix]

Make Demon Lilith into a Longinus. Her soul will make it the strongest/most powerful

[saucerKing]

it depends, do all of the created devils come whit baalberith galaxy brain? also technically it was her flesh what gave birth to them

[Lucidrago]

Originally Posted by saucerKing

do we have a reason to believe it cant? in fact georg does exactly this in vol 12 when he escapes whit cao cao, he can teleport people around the same dimension.

cao cao, who is recognized as one of the, if not the strongest, wielder of the true longinus in history who trained for years and he still needs to land the hit without being murdered. while leonardo, who previously did not show anything impressive and is like thirteen, when forced past his limits created 12 super-monsters that ranged from ultimate-class to satan-class whit one being nerfed trihexa.

if you had someone as talented as cao cao whit just as much experience using annihilation maker you would have a guy who can make dozens upon dozens of things like the jabberwocky or something even worse over time, hid them somewhere and then show up whit an army of them. and its not like cao cao could one-shot satans from the moment he got it.

one is a guy whit a very dangerous spear but still one person in one place, the other is a guy who could potentially attack three or five places at the same time whit monsters just as dangerous as the spear which can regenerate and create armies of their own. see the difference?

Georg used a regular teleportation magic circle to escape with Cao Cao in Volume 12 IIRC. Georg is a powerful magician as well as a Longinus possessor.

Those 12 super monsters are a Balance Breaker. While Cao Cao can drop powerful supernatural beings like Issei, Azazel, and Sonneillon with one hit with just the power of True Longinus in its base state. Sure it's not like Cao Cao could one-shot Maou-class devils as soon as he awakened but I would argue that he's on that level now.

And Shalba forced Leonardo to activate his Balance Breaker. It's not something Leonardo achieved on his own in a natural way. It's not like he could create beasts like Bandersnatch and Jabberwocky whenever it fancied him.

[saucerKing]

Originally Posted by Lucidrago

Georg used a regular teleportation magic circle to escape with Cao Cao in Volume 12 IIRC. Georg is a powerful magician as well as a Longinus possessor.

Those 12 super monsters are a Balance Breaker. While Cao Cao can drop powerful supernatural beings like Issei, Azazel, and Sonneillon with one hit with just the power of True Longinus in its base state. Sure it's not like Cao Cao could one-shot Maou-class devils as soon as he awakened but I would argue that he's on that level now.

And Shalba forced Leonardo to activate his Balance Breaker. It's not something Leonardo achieved on his own in a natural way. It's not like he could create beasts like Bandersnatch and Jabberwocky whenever it fancied him.

that seems still like an arbitrary limit, since it would be ridiculous that it can only move things trough dimensions but not in real space, such a limitation was never actually stated to exist, by that logic i can say that cao cao spear cant cause damage unless he has all his fingers in it, purely because we always saw him having all his fingers on his spear. we see dimension lost transporting people, we are told that is its power, we are never told "but he cant transport people in the same space" so why would we assume that? and no, "but georg never tried to warp someone into space" is not a real argument, not when cao cao did not poke issei a second time in kyoto, not when hades did not use samael despite how much he wanted to kill issei, not when villains in this series are prohibited from actually using their power to do something that is not hitting hard.

and that is exactly the problem, we are comparing the longinus here, not their wielders. you are using cao cao at his best as if he was the rule and using leonardo as if he was the best annihilation maker user ever. azazel himself implies that is possible to make things like godzilla out of sheer will, just that leonardo is inexperienced and too weak for that, he cant even bring out the full potential of the monsters he can create. if you have two guys one whit the true longinus and one whit annihilation maker, both at the peak of their longinus control, the one whit annihilation maker can make an army of god-killing monsters while the other can only fight them one on one. and balance breaker is part of the sacred gear, so it should be counted too

not yet, but the possibility is definitely there, the potential is there, he just has to train to reach that level. leonardo, or another possessor of annihilation maker can in theory reach that level whit pure training, and once they do they can just make them, have them hid somewhere, make more and repeat it until he has a veritable army of them or at least a few dozens.

the higher end of annihilation maker shown, the jabberwocky and bandersnatch, put anything but truth idea from the true longinus to shame, and this was done by a kid. give leonardo some training, give him until he is eighteen or nineteen or whatever cao cao is now and see how he compares.

so again, this is not cao cao vs leonardo, this annihilation maker vs the true longinus, and the other top tier longinus too while at it.

[Lucidrago]

Originally Posted by saucerKing

that seems still like an arbitrary limit, since it would be ridiculous that it can only move things trough dimensions but not in real space, such a limitation was never actually stated to exist, by that logic i can say that cao cao spear cant cause damage unless he has all his fingers in it, purely because we always saw him having all his fingers on his spear. we see dimension lost transporting people, we are told that is its power, we are never told "but he cant transport people in the same space" so why would we assume that? and no, "but georg never tried to warp someone into space" is not a real argument, not when cao cao did not poke issei a second time in kyoto, not when hades did not use samael despite how much he wanted to kill issei, not when villains in this series are prohibited from actually using their power to do something that is not hitting hard.

and that is exactly the problem, we are comparing the longinus here, not their wielders. you are using cao cao at his best as if he was the rule and using leonardo as if he was the best annihilation maker user ever. azazel himself implies that is possible to make things like godzilla out of sheer will, just that leonardo is inexperienced and too weak for that, he cant even bring out the full potential of the monsters he can create. if you have two guys one whit the true longinus and one whit annihilation maker, both at the peak of their longinus control, the one whit annihilation maker can make an army of god-killing monsters while the other can only fight them one on one. and balance breaker is part of the sacred gear, so it should be counted too

not yet, but the possibility is definitely there, the potential is there, he just has to train to reach that level. leonardo, or another possessor of annihilation maker can in theory reach that level whit pure training, and once they do they can just make them, have them hid somewhere, make more and repeat it until he has a veritable army of them or at least a few dozens.

the higher end of annihilation maker shown, the jabberwocky and bandersnatch, put anything but truth idea from the true longinus to shame, and this was done by a kid. give leonardo some training, give him until he is eighteen or nineteen or whatever cao cao is now and see how he compares.

so again, this is not cao cao vs leonardo, this annihilation maker vs the true longinus, and the other top tier longinus too while at it.

We've never seen Georg do that exactly with Dimension Lost. We've seen Georg use Dimension Lost as a defensive barrier, to transfer others to other spaces, reinforce artificial spaces and create barrier-like devices. But we've yet to see him transfer others from one point to the other within the same space. So we're not exactly sure Dimension Lost can do that.

The comparison you ysed really doesn't fit as you're talking about the possessor of the Longinus not being able to use it under certain circumstances. While I'm saying it's uncertain Dimension Lost has a certain ability that has never been shown.

Cao Cao is clearly an exception. But even as good a wielder Cao Cao is, the power of the True Longinus is pretty evident and we've seen that it's very effective even against beings that are very powerful that aren't weak to the power of light(Azazel in Volume 11). A weapon is only as good as the wielder sure and while Cao Cao's spearsmanship and use of the spear is very top-notch, we have a good idea of the power of True Longinus by what we've seen and the full extent of its power when used by an exceptional wielder.

You keep mentioning Bandersnatch and Jabberwocky like it's not a Balance Breaker and are part of the original abilities of Annihilation Maker. That's like trying to use Issei's and Vali's DxD forms to say that Boosted Gear and Divine Dividing are the two most powerful Longinus.

[saucerKing]

Originally Posted by Lucidrago

We've never seen Georg do that exactly with Dimension Lost. We've seen Georg use Dimension Lost as a defensive barrier, to transfer others to other spaces, reinforce artificial spaces and create barrier-like devices. But we've yet to see him transfer others from one point to the other within the same space. So we're not exactly sure Dimension Lost can do that.

The comparison you ysed really doesn't fit as you're talking about the possessor of the Longinus not being able to use it under certain circumstances. While I'm saying it's uncertain Dimension Lost has a certain ability that has never been shown.

Cao Cao is clearly an exception. But even as good a wielder Cao Cao is, the power of the True Longinus is pretty evident and we've seen that it's very effective even against beings that are very powerful that aren't weak to the power of light(Azazel in Volume 11). A weapon is only as good as the wielder sure and while Cao Cao's spearsmanship and use of the spear is very top-notch, we have a good idea of the power of True Longinus by what we've seen and the full extent of its power when used by an exceptional wielder.

You keep mentioning Bandersnatch and Jabberwocky like it's not a Balance Breaker and are part of the original abilities of Annihilation Maker. That's like trying to use Issei's and Vali's DxD forms to say that Boosted Gear and Divine Dividing are the two most powerful Longinus.

we have never seen issei boosted after someone threw blue paint at him, so he cant boost if he is painted blue, we have never seen cao cao spear slicing someone legs off so the true longinus cant hurt people legs no matter what, we have never seen sairaorg hit in his knees, so he gains no protection on his knees. we know it can transport people, its not a stretch in logic to think that if it can transfer people across the unknown distance there is in dimensions then it can also transfer the in the same space. after all, they are never doing that in those very specific and arbitrary circumstances.

but dimension lost transporting people is shown, its a stated power, teleporting people, we are never shown georg teleporting people within the same space but that does not mean it cant. or do you have anything from the light novels that imply that? because i dont ever remember anyone saying "dimension lost can exclusively teleport people across dimensions but never in the same space"

azazel should be weak to the true longinus though? its a holy weapon and we know for a fact fallen angels are weak to those

“It’s the damage caused by the holy-sword. Devils and fallen-angels get their power and existence erased by receiving damage from the holy-sword to their body. If it were a bit deeper, then it would have been critical.”

so why would it be different whit something even more holy? and even then he did not kill azazel, later even failed to kill issei whit its strongest attack. even in raw power its not that impressive when there is a sacred gear that does its job better, canis lykaon that can cut better and literally burn you from the inside out regardless of you being weak to demonic swords or not. and that is exactly the problem, we have a solid idea of what is the upper limit of the true longinus. while we dont know what is the upper limit of annihilation maker, and what we were shown from a kid who cant even bring out the best of his already possible monsters is better than anything cao cao has shown outside of truth idea, balance breaker or no balance breaker cao cao falls short to leonardo balance breaker.

except a balance breaker is part of the sacred gear, and you dont want to include them because you know that if we bring cao cao balance breaker into the picture it does not hold a candle. and its not only about raw individual power, a user of annihilation maker can keep making his monsters and commanding them from safety, meanwhile no matter what the user of the true longinus is one guy whit one spear and has to always be there fighting on the front lines. a user of AM that can so much as make ultimate-class monsters can overshadow a true longinus user by pure zerg rush, all while never being in danger themselves.

and leonardo is not anywhere near the limit of his longinus base power, nowhere close, azazel himself said that things of the size of godzilla can be recreated by sheer will, the expert in sacred gears himself said annihilation maker can potentially make kaiju, and if it can be done once it can be done twice and thrice until he has an armoy of monsters, vs a guy whit a dangerous spear who will probably die from one hit unless they are not entirely human.

dunno you, but the power of creating an army of untiring monsters whit all sorts of abilities in base over time sounds much stronger than a sharp stick that is not even the sharpest around, and if you include the balance breaker (that for some reason you keep treating as if it was not part of a sacred gear) you have one who can make even bigger monster that makes smaller copies of themselves vs seven orbs of light whit abilities, half of which are schmuck bait or cripplingly overspecialized.

and your comparison whit DxD is not valid, those two are a power that can only be accessed by vali and issei due to something inherently unique to them. the bandersnatch and jabberwocky are part of the sacred gear, its just a subspecies, not something the next AM user or the previous ones could never reach.

[Xuanwu]

So what are the chances of a Gremory reaching or surpassing Sirzechs’ level? Like Ex or Millicas.

[cyberdemon]

Originally Posted by Xuanwu

So what are the chances of a Gremory reaching or surpassing Sirzechs’ level? Like Ex or Millicas.

He is in an unending struggle right now. He’ll be even more powerful when he gets out. Reaching his previous level is likely for Ex and Milicas. Who knows about. What comes out though.

[saucerKing]

Originally Posted by cyberdemon

He is in an unending struggle right now. He’ll be even more powerful when he gets out. Reaching his previous level is likely for Ex and Milicas. Who knows about. What comes out though.

can sirzechs still get stronger? i always thought he reached his peak in power. but they say rias has talent and potential comparable to her brother (which is BS to me but we dont know if its actually true) so milicas who clearly has even more talent or ex whose genes are outright godly should be able to whit enough effort.

[cyberdemon]

Originally Posted by saucerKing

can sirzechs still get stronger? i always thought he reached his peak in power. but they say rias has talent and potential comparable to her brother (which is BS to me but we dont know if its actually true) so milicas who clearly has even more talent or ex whose genes are outright godly should be able to whit enough effort.

Never remember it saying he was at the peak of his power. It likely stagnated due to the ceasefire after the death of the god of the Bible and him being busy with political work.

[XFire]

Did Sirzechs actually train for his power? I thought his dad implied he was just born a complete monster.

[saucerKing]

Originally Posted by XFire

Did Sirzechs actually train for his power? I thought his dad implied he was just born a complete monster.

he was, but he probably also trained too since kiba says he is the ultimate technique-type, if he had no training he would be rias x1000. besides guy when dressed as satan ranger looks swole, so he definitely trained in some way or another.

but yeah, sirzechs might be able to get stronger, but i feel like he shouldn't since that would mean millicas probably can go even beyond that and the last thing the story needs is the devils to be even more OP.