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Old 2019-08-16, 22:32   Link #1
Toukairin
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The Hong Kong anti-extradition bill protests

For those who may not already know, the current protests in Hong Kong were sparked because the government of Hong Kong proposed a bill that would allow local authorities to detain and extradite people who are wanted in territories that Hong Kong does not have extradition agreements with, including mainland China and Taiwan. Hong Kongers fear that the bill would undermine the autonomy of the region and citizens' rights.

Demonstrations against the bill began in March and April, but escalated in June. Here's a timeline of the more intense parts.

June 9: Hundreds of thousands of people marched in protests of the bill.

June 12: On the day the bill was scheduled to a second reading in the Legislative Council, protests marked a sharp escalation in violence. Riot police employed tear gas and rubber bullets against demonstrators. Subsequently, investigations into police behaviour and greater accountability for their actions became part of protestor demands.

June 16: A larger march occurred.

July 1st: Hundreds of thousands of people participated in the annual July marches. A portion of these demonstrators split from the march and broke into the Legislative Council Complex, vandalising central government symbols.

July 9: Chief Executive Carrie Lam said it was "dead". BUT she did not say the bill would be fully withdrawn.

July 19: Executive Council members Regina Ip and Bernard Charnwut Chan said that the government does not intend to make further concessions.

July 22: Protests continued through the summer, escalating into increasingly violent confrontations between police, activists, pro-Beijing triad members, and local residents in over 20 different neighbourhoods throughout the region.

As demonstrations continue, protestors are calling for an independent inquiry on police brutality, the release of arrested protesters, a retraction of the official characterisation of the protests as "riots", and direct elections to choose Legislative Council members and the Chief Executive. As if more oil had to be poured on the fire, the Chinese are getting troops on the ready for any eventuality.

What is even worse is that the confrontation between pro-Hong Kong people and pro-Beijing nationalists has spilled beyond Chinese borders. In Australia, for instance:

Pro-Hong Kong rallies see tensions boil over in Melbourne and Adelaide

Derogatory and sexist insults, and threats to the safety of the pro-Hong Kong protesters. When I read stuff like this, I really wonder when Western countries and Australia will start taking a stronger stand against those so-called Chinese "students". Considering that it has already happened a few days ago, safe to say that enough is enough. It's really time to revoke student visas and to deport those pro-Beijing leeches who are abusing a little too much of their hosts' hospitality.

And to finish, Carrie Lam is a ****ing Muppet.

Last edited by Toukairin; 2019-08-18 at 00:07.
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Old 2019-08-16, 22:54   Link #2
TheForsaken
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The protest will end in September.
After all, the majority of the rioters are just bunch of kids who have too much free time.
They will go back to school when their summer break ends.
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Old 2019-08-16, 23:53   Link #3
Yu Ominae
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Cathay Pacific has been doing some lay-offs due to their staff backing the protests.

CEO Rupert Hogg himself just resigned afterwards.

Also the protests at the airport are being controlled with an injunction right given to the airport authority.
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Old 2019-08-17, 00:08   Link #4
Toukairin
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Now the teachers are in the game in support of their pupils.

Thousands of teachers in black brave heavy rain to launch rally supporting Hong Kong’s young protesters in show of solidarity

Sounds to me there more than enough people wanting to put school as a very secondary matter compared to the situation at stakes here.
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Old 2019-08-17, 01:26   Link #5
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I watched a supposed student leader be interviewed by the BBC. He was frustratingly unwilling to accept any responsibility for the violence and kept blaming the police. He could have at least said, yes, a small contingent of demonstrators acted unwisely, but the vast majority of us have been peaceful. By refusing to admit even that, he makes it harder for sympathetic observers to feel reassured.

In the end I expect the protesters to be crushed by the Chinese military. The outside world will express dismay, but do nothing.

Meanwhile we have two nuclear-armed states getting closer and closer to a military confrontation in Kashmir.
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Old 2019-08-17, 01:45   Link #6
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There was some sort of protest at the Indian consulate in San Francisco a day or two ago over the Kashmir. I don't think there was any news about it. I only know about it because a friend of mine was walking near the pet hospital that's basically next door to the consulate and noted the people there.
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Old 2019-08-17, 04:17   Link #7
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https://www.reddit.com/r/HongKong/co...ado_square_an/

Found a Portuguese article on Macau (someone translated the summary) that Public Security Police didn’t allow a solidarity protest from proceeding.
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Old 2019-08-17, 04:50   Link #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeijiSensei View Post
I watched a supposed student leader be interviewed by the BBC. He was frustratingly unwilling to accept any responsibility for the violence and kept blaming the police. He could have at least said, yes, a small contingent of demonstrators acted unwisely, but the vast majority of us have been peaceful. By refusing to admit even that, he makes it harder for sympathetic observers to feel reassured.

In the end I expect the protesters to be crushed by the Chinese military. The outside world will express dismay, but do nothing.
I just feel that similar to the protests in 1989 the Hong Kong protests this year suffer from two major issues:

1) Lack of leadership, which makes it hard for the administration - even if they were willing - to negotiate. They don't have a contact person and if there were one they can't negotiate with people of whom they don't know if they represent even a majority of the people on the streets out there.

2) Lack of pragmatism. With each passing day a PLA intervention is edging closer. And once the PLA intervenes they can not only forget about any of their demands, no matter whether it's things already (practically) achieved such as the scrapping of the extradition bill or democratization, they can also say goodbye to the freedoms they (still) possess under the one-country-two-systems principle, no matter how much the edges have been frayed in the past decades. Furthermore, the instabilities brought about by a PLA intervention will pull the rug from Hong Kong's economy, which will worsen some of the conditions that are part of the reason why so many are going to the streets now.

The people on the streets need to realize that Beijing does not want to send the PLA in.
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Old 2019-08-17, 06:11   Link #9
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A reddit compilation I found regarding the airport raid on the 13th by PTU and whether an agent provocateur was planted:

https://www.reddit.com/r/HongKong/co...international/

https://www.reddit.com/r/HongKong/co...3th_hong_kong/
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Old 2019-08-18, 00:04   Link #10
Toukairin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kakurin View Post
1) Lack of leadership, which makes it hard for the administration - even if they were willing - to negotiate. They don't have a contact person and if there were one they can't negotiate with people of whom they don't know if they represent even a majority of the people on the streets out there.
The last time a leader was the head/contact person of a movement that goes against Beijing, he got jailed as well as the co-leaders were. His name is Joshua Wong. Don't blame them for not wanting to talk to anybody after what they went through.

And like I pointed out yesterday, Carrie Lam is nothing but some useless Muppet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kakurin View Post
2) Lack of pragmatism. With each passing day a PLA intervention is edging closer. And once the PLA intervenes they can not only forget about any of their demands, no matter whether it's things already (practically) achieved such as the scrapping of the extradition bill or democratization, they can also say goodbye to the freedoms they (still) possess under the one-country-two-systems principle, no matter how much the edges have been frayed in the past decades. Furthermore, the instabilities brought about by a PLA intervention will pull the rug from Hong Kong's economy, which will worsen some of the conditions that are part of the reason why so many are going to the streets now.

The people on the streets need to realize that Beijing does not want to send the PLA in.
If the PLA intervenes, it won't take long until the European Union cuts ties with Beijing-related businesses. They have been gearing up in recent years with better tools and countermeasures than the US did with the shadow of a political/trade war with China. If the CCP wants to do something that will justify outside actions that would actually hurt Mainland China, I wish them all the pleasure.

Don't you think the people in Hong Kong already know that? Israel has been getting stick for years for sending troops to commit massacres, and that has only reinforced a worldwide pro-Palestine sentiment along with a freezing of several Western countries' relations with Israel. Besides, Palestinians have been quite resilient despite all the deprivations. My point is that people here are severely underestimating Hong Kongers.

One topic that has not ben debated much here is the crap that pro-Beijing students are doing against pro-Hong Kong protestors in Australia. Would you be happy if those pro-Beijing troublemakers get the boot? I would because they are abusing a foreign democratic system to promote a dictatorship; and that is not saying that they have breached the terms of their student visas. In any case, there will be a pro-Hong Kong demonstration in my home city later today. Those red bastards better not stand in the way.

Last edited by Toukairin; 2019-08-18 at 02:29.
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Old 2019-08-18, 05:18   Link #11
Kakurin
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Originally Posted by Toukairin View Post
Don't you think the people in Hong Kong already know that? Israel has been getting stick for years for sending troops to commit massacres, and that has only reinforced a worldwide pro-Palestine sentiment along with a freezing of several Western countries' relations with Israel. Besides, Palestinians have been quite resilient despite all the deprivations. My point is that people here are severely underestimating Hong Kongers.
Ah, and which countries are you talking about? Support for Israel is still as strong as ever. Although I think it's quite weird that you try to use an Israel / Palestine comparison.

Quote:
One topic that has not ben debated much here is the crap that pro-Beijing students are doing against pro-Hong Kong protestors in Australia. Would you be happy if those pro-Beijing troublemakers get the boot? I would because they are abusing a foreign democratic system to promote a dictatorship; and that is not saying that they have breached the terms of their student visas. In any case, there will be a pro-Hong Kong demonstration in my home city later today. Those red bastards better not stand in the way.
That's quite a dictatorial view you have. Protests and demonstrations that are within my views? Good. Protests and demonstrations that are against my views? Ship those bastards out.

Quote:
If the PLA intervenes, it won't take long until the European Union cuts ties with Beijing-related businesses. They have been gearing up in recent years with better tools and countermeasures than the US did with the shadow of a political/trade war with China. If the CCP wants to do something that will justify outside actions that would actually hurt Mainland China, I wish them all the pleasure.
You overestimate the European Union. In the case of China the EU is no longer speaking with an unified voice with countries like Italy or Greece joining the Belt-and-Road project. Unless there is a massacre of unthinkable proportions the EU won't be able to cut ties with China lest it wants to risk tearing the union further apart.
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Last edited by Kakurin; 2019-08-18 at 05:33.
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Old 2019-08-18, 08:42   Link #12
Toukairin
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Originally Posted by Kakurin View Post
Ah, and which countries are you talking about? Support for Israel is still as strong as ever. Although I think it's quite weird that you try to use an Israel / Palestine comparison.
Palestine won the vote that recognizes them as a nation at the UN, no? A total of 138 countries out 193 recognized Palestine as. Except for a most Western countries going against (Sweden voted for instead), it's safe to say that it is a big middle finger to Israel and to the US.

Unless you have not read the news in the last 2-3 days, you should have heard that a number of people in the US are pushing for slashing aid to Israel despite what all lobbyists and corporations want to make people think. Come 2021, there could be a huge shift in that "support" of Israel. It wouldn't come too soon in my view.

Quote:
That's quite a dictatorial view you have. Protests and demonstrations that are within my views? Good. Protests and demonstrations that are against my views? Ship those bastards out.
As far as they are concerned, they are the ones who openly started stirring shit in Australia by getting into fisticuffs against pro-Hong Kong factions, so much that the latter had to receive police protection to prevent further incidents. And as far as we know, it was a pro-Chinese protester who punched the ABC Australia reporter doing his job by filiming the scene. Are you OK with what those Chinese nationalists have been doing? You're the one who have a distorted view here.

Quote:
You overestimate the European Union. In the case of China the EU is no longer speaking with an unified voice with countries like Italy or Greece joining the Belt-and-Road project. Unless there is a massacre of unthinkable proportions the EU won't be able to cut ties with China lest it wants to risk tearing the union further apart.
Did you even read one bit of what I wrote above? Cutting ties would be the next step if troops are involved and perpetrate a massacre. As for Italy, they can go fuck themselves for as long as Salvini is the one pulling the strings; that's how I feel since they passed the anti-migrant law.

In any case, I'm against all countries and governments wherever they may be and regardless of whether they have diplomatic relations with my home country or not. From the very moment there is a disregard against human rights, against humanitarian considerations, and against the rule of law, such countries and governments should be treated as ideological enemies.

Last edited by Toukairin; 2019-08-18 at 08:59.
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Old 2019-08-18, 10:13   Link #13
Kakurin
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Originally Posted by Toukairin View Post
In any case, I'm against all countries and governments wherever they may be and regardless of whether they have diplomatic relations with my home country or not. From the very moment there is a disregard against human rights, against humanitarian considerations, and against the rule of law, such countries and governments should be treated as ideological enemies.
Spoken like a true ideological idealist. Admirable. But foolish. And in the end, very much hypocritical since you are unconsciously drawing lines what is against human rights and what is not.
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Old 2019-08-19, 02:51   Link #14
Yu Ominae
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Here's an article from the SCMP about denying bail to one of the accused in beating up a Global Times journalist:

Quote:
A court on Monday denied bail to a part-time hotel waiter allegedly involved in beating a journalist from mainland China at Hong Kong International Airport.

Lai Yun-long, 19, was accused of assaulting Fu Guohao, who works for Chinese state newspaper Global Times.

The incident took place overnight between August 13 and 14, when protesters blocked the paths of outbound travellers at the airport’s departure hall and grounded hundreds of flights.

In the Eastern Court, Lai faced one count of wounding, one of assault causing bodily harm and another of taking part in an unlawful assembly.

Principal Magistrate Bina Chainrai rejected his bail application and adjourned the case to October 28 for further police inquiries, which included locating relevant video footage and investigating the involvement of others in the case.

Sparked by the now-shelved extradition bill, the anti-government protest at the airport had started off as a peaceful one. Black-clad protesters joined a sit-in at the arrival hall that started on August 9, in an attempt to rally overseas support via incoming travellers.

But on the fifth day of the mass sit-in, pandemonium reigned over the departure hall as the protesters sat in the path of outbound travellers and forced the cancellation of some 421 flights that day.

The chaos triggered an interim injunction issued by the High Court to ban demonstrations in all but two designated zones at the airport’s arrival hall.

On the night of August 13, angry protesters surrounded Fu and another man at the departure hall on separate occasions, suspecting them to be spies of the Chinese government. The protesters also tied up their hands and feet, beat them and even blocked paramedics coming to their rescue.

Lai allegedly attacked Fu on two occasions. He allegedly kicked Fu and poked him with an American flag when he was challenged by protesters. Later, he allegedly hit Fu again when the latter was being carried away by paramedics.

This article Court denies bail to hotel waiter accused of assaulting mainland China journalist at Hong Kong airport during anti-government protests first appeared on South China Morning Post
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Old 2019-08-19, 06:04   Link #15
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I'm curious about the extent that bleak economic and housing prospects are the underlying factors for the widespread discontent with the Hong Kong government. Several commentators have highlighted these factors, but I personally wonder if they matter as much as some analysts seem to think they do.

I would add that anyone in Hong Kong who thinks the city can be independent from China is deeply delusional. Even if every Hong Kong citizen were to serve mandatory military service — and that's a big if — independence is completely impossible, both militarily, and economically.

Don't expect anyone to come to Hong Kong's help if there's a military crackdown.

Hong Kong's future, like it or not, will be inextricably linked to that of China, and it's about time to reconcile with that fact, or make plans to emigrate.

Last edited by TinyRedLeaf; 2019-08-19 at 09:28.
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Old 2019-08-19, 12:17   Link #16
Toukairin
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I'm curious about the extent that bleak economic and housing prospects are the underlying factors for the widespread discontent with the Hong Kong government. Several commentators have highlighted these factors, but I personally wonder if they matter as much as some analysts seem to think they do.
Well, when you have a population of 7 million people in a very tight amount of land while the wealth gap is increasing by country miles between classes, it's about a perfect mix for disaster ad upcoming unrest.

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Hong Kong's future, like it or not, will be inextricably linked to that of China, and it's about time to reconcile with that fact, or make plans to emigrate.
Or carry on until cracks are showing everywhere in Mainland China because ideas are spread throughout the country. Remember that nothing is over in Tibet and in Xinjiang no matter how tightly the government is trying to control information. If the anti-Beijing rhetoric reaches those 2 very poor regions before unrest rises, the Chinese government would have a tough time dealing with 3 fronts at the same time. Ask yourself how the Soviet Union and their puppet governments in Eastern Europe felt when they had to deal with Solidarność (Poland) and other similar movements (East Germany, Hungary, and then-Czechoslovakia).
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Old 2019-08-19, 20:48   Link #17
Ithekro
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And there is always Taiwan just sitting there...waiting.
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Old 2019-08-19, 21:27   Link #18
Yu Ominae
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Picking up some news around the net. I'll highlight some stuff:

- Ex-Cathay Pacific CEO Hogg resigned. I picked up info that he only mentioned his name to the CAAC as a way of shouldering the blame. Looks like they accepted it since Chinese media announced it first.

- There's a solidarity rally in Macau, but Macau Public Security made some arrests.

----

There's also this ad from China Daily about portraying the CCP as the victims.

https://www.reddit.com/r/HongKong/co..._sent_me_this/
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Old 2019-08-19, 23:43   Link #19
Toukairin
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In other news, the highlight of the weekend was the estimated presence of 1,7 million people who defied government orders to protest.

Hong Kong protests: Huge crowds rally peacefully (BBC)
Hongkong: 1,7 million de manifestants ce dimanche selon les organisateurs (Le Figaro - French)

Make those what you will, but the footage shows a crowd around the size of the one at Barack Obama's inauguration. The authorities can't fool anybody with their own estimated figure.

Also, Twitter has gone to war against the Chinese version of the Troll Farm by removing 936 accounts and suspending around 200,000 accounts that were found illegitimate.

Twitter and Facebook crack down on accounts linked to Chinese campaign against Hong Kong

If only Twitter used that same algorithm against white supremacists to such great effect...

Last edited by Toukairin; 2019-08-20 at 00:11.
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Old 2019-08-20, 10:42   Link #20
Endscape
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Originally Posted by Toukairin View Post
In other news, the highlight of the weekend was the estimated presence of 1,7 million people who defied government orders to protest.

Hong Kong protests: Huge crowds rally peacefully (BBC)
Hongkong: 1,7 million de manifestants ce dimanche selon les organisateurs (Le Figaro - French)

Make those what you will, but the footage shows a crowd around the size of the one at Barack Obama's inauguration. The authorities can't fool anybody with their own estimated figure.

Also, Twitter has gone to war against the Chinese version of the Troll Farm by removing 936 accounts and suspending around 200,000 accounts that were found illegitimate.

Twitter and Facebook crack down on accounts linked to Chinese campaign against Hong Kong
Wow, it's certainly not everyday you see that many people protesting. Truly an awesome sight.

Quote:
If only Twitter used that same algorithm against white supremacists to such great effect...
Amen. The problem is, Twitter cares too much about what people will say if they do that.
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