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Old 2019-08-20, 12:58   Link #21
SeijiSensei
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toukairin View Post
Twitter and Facebook crack down on accounts linked to Chinese campaign against Hong Kong

If only Twitter used that same algorithm against white supremacists to such great effect...
White supremacists posting from accounts in the US have First Amendment protections that state-sponsored Chinese accounts do not have.
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Old 2019-08-20, 16:15   Link #22
ramlaen
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Twitter does crack down on white supremacists, the real kind and not the "if I call you a ____ that makes you one" kind.

Last edited by ramlaen; 2019-08-20 at 16:40.
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Old 2019-08-20, 18:36   Link #23
TheForsaken
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeijiSensei View Post
White supremacists posting from accounts in the US have First Amendment protections that state-sponsored Chinese accounts do not have.
The First Amendment only prevents censorship from the government. Private organizations, including social and mass media, can (and did) censor stuff all the time, which is completely legal unless you can prove that the government is behind such censorship.
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Old 2019-08-21, 07:48   Link #24
SeijiSensei
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Originally Posted by TheForsaken View Post
The First Amendment only prevents censorship from the government. Private organizations, including social and mass media, can (and did) censor stuff all the time, which is completely legal unless you can prove that the government is behind such censorship.
True, but in the current context where right-wing groups claim censorship at the drop of a hat, and the White House is convening meetings on how to clamp down on social media companies, I think it would still be controversial even if not legal.

As for Hong Kong, the Washington Post published this story on how high-level members of the government in Beijing benefit from Hong Kong's financial structures and reliance on an independent judiciary.

https://beta.washingtonpost.com/poli...ake-hong-kong/

Quote:
Hong Kong’s offshore setup works only under the “one country, two systems” approach. What makes Hong Kong uniquely useful for the Chinese elites is that it combines political control with separate legal and monetary systems. Rich Chinese can open trusts on the mainland, too, but the firms setting them up are mostly state-owned or government-controlled, which means the money is not in a true haven.
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Old 2019-08-21, 20:47   Link #25
Yu Ominae
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This was uncovered by NHK:



Quote:
The Hong Kong Journalists Association says a fake press card was found at a site of a demonstration in the territory.

There are concerns among Hong Kong citizens that people related to the Chinese or Hong Kong government may be collecting information by posing as reporters.

The association says the card of a media outlet in Macau was found on August 4 where a protest took place.

The group says it asked the outlet about the man described on the card, and that it replied that he does not belong to the organization and the card is fake.

Separately, at a police news conference on Tuesday, Hong Kong journalists said a TV reporter from mainland China persistently took images of them with her smartphone.

They said they asked the reporter whether she was trying to deliver personal information to the central government.

A TV station in Guangdong Province protested the act in a statement.

There is also speculation in Hong Kong that police may be slipping into demonstrations to monitor participants.

Protests continue in the territory, triggered by a bill that would allow the transfer of suspects to mainland China to face trial.
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Old 2019-08-22, 07:59   Link #26
SeijiSensei
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Of course the PRC has agents among the demonstrators. It would be foolish to think otherwise. The question is whether they have "agents provocateurs" using or encouraging violence like we saw at the airport. It's also an open question whether those thugs that beat up demonstrators at the railway station were acting on behalf of the HK government or the PRC.
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Old 2019-08-23, 08:33   Link #27
Toukairin
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I had to post this because this has got my blood boiling like hell and it happens in my home country.

Daphne Bramham: Even in Canada, Hong Kong supporters fear retaliation (Vancouver Sun)

One bit that caught my attention:

Quote:
Presidents of Canada’s top research universities were warned last spring by top spy David Vigneault that Chinese government officials might try to pressure students, faculty and researchers to participate in demonstrations or spy on other student to further state interests.

The head of the Canadian Security Intelligence Service also noted that Chinese legislation compels Chinese nationals to cooperate with state intelligence officials regardless of whether they are at home or abroad, or face jail time.
If that is how they want to play, I think people in Canada need to start reporting suspicious activities from those people to the CSIS and to the Immigration services. Those people would be better off jailed and then deported if that's how they want to abuse our system to fuck around people who don't share their chauvinistic views. I couldn't care less if they are coerced to do it by their own government; they have to taste consequences for their actions here.
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Old 2019-08-23, 09:47   Link #28
Cosmic Eagle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toukairin View Post


Or carry on until cracks are showing everywhere in Mainland China because ideas are spread throughout the country. Remember that nothing is over in Tibet and in Xinjiang no matter how tightly the government is trying to control information. If the anti-Beijing rhetoric reaches those 2 very poor regions before unrest rises, the Chinese government would have a tough time dealing with 3 fronts at the same time. Ask yourself how the Soviet Union and their puppet governments in Eastern Europe felt when they had to deal with Solidarność (Poland) and other similar movements (East Germany, Hungary, and then-Czechoslovakia).
I don't know about Xinjiang but as for Tibet it's not like HK or Taiwan at all. You can't compare Tibet to the Han people. Totally different situations and cultures, what more comparing Tibet to an East Euro state
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Old 2019-08-23, 15:53   Link #29
Eisdrache
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toukairin View Post
If that is how they want to play, I think people in Canada need to start reporting suspicious activities from those people to the CSIS and to the Immigration services. Those people would be better off jailed and then deported if that's how they want to abuse our system to fuck around people who don't share their chauvinistic views. I couldn't care less if they are coerced to do it by their own government; they have to taste consequences for their actions here.
As usual you want to take the sledgehammer to bash the symptom rather than the cause as if that were an actual solution. Your idea is nothing more than carpet bombing that would only lead to an increasingly distrusting country, hurting many more innocents than those who are actually guilty.
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Old 2019-08-23, 16:20   Link #30
Kakurin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eisdrache View Post
As usual you want to take the sledgehammer to bash the symptom rather than the cause as if that were an actual solution. Your idea is nothing more than carpet bombing that would only lead to an increasingly distrusting country, hurting many more innocents than those who are actually guilty.
It's interesting how sometimes those that go around proclaiming themselves as the biggest heroes of an ideology that supposedly care about democracy, liberty and so on share views that have more in common with totalist ideologies. Don't share my view? Jail them! Deport them! Just misses the Kill them! to make the trifecta complete.

And I'm amusing myself at how delusional people can get when their view is coloured by radicalism. Cracks everywhere in Mainland China? Somebody apparently understands nothing. The Hong Kong protesters can't even get a majority of Mainlanders living in Hong Kong onto their side. The more radical they get, the less chance they have of getting Mainlanders understanding. They are currently in the nationalist phase of nation building. Democracy, human rights etc are insignificant in Mainland China after the Communist Party delivered unprecedented growth in prosperity over the last 40 years. The CCP is in a far more stable situation than the CPSU in 1989.
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Old 2019-08-23, 16:23   Link #31
TheForsaken
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Quote:
Presidents of Canada’s top research universities were warned last spring by top spy David Vigneault that Chinese government officials might try to pressure students, faculty and researchers to participate in demonstrations or spy on other student to further state interests.

The head of the Canadian Security Intelligence Service also noted that Chinese legislation compels Chinese nationals to cooperate with state intelligence officials regardless of whether they are at home or abroad, or face jail time.
Just fear mongering bullshit

1/ Spies need a lot of training. You can't force random people to become your spies.
2/ Spies are not supposed to attract attention. You can't participate in demonstrations while being a spy.

Seriously, I believe that many people in the west are living in a bubble. They just can't comprehend the idea that the Chinese people actually support their "dictatorship" government, and come to the conclusion that those people are either brainwashed or forced to do so.
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Old 2019-08-23, 16:54   Link #32
Eisdrache
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That's only if your idea of a spy is the one that sneaks into highly secured buildings. The main purpose of spies is to gather information. There is no reason why random people can't provide an official with political views, moods for/against the government, potential candidates for further recruitment and so on.
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Old 2019-08-23, 17:07   Link #33
Kakurin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eisdrache View Post
There is no reason why random people can't provide an official with political views, moods for/against the government, potential candidates for further recruitment and so on.
These are no spies. That's how real spies work.
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Old 2019-08-23, 17:26   Link #34
Toukairin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eisdrache View Post
As usual you want to take the sledgehammer to bash the symptom rather than the cause as if that were an actual solution. Your idea is nothing more than carpet bombing that would only lead to an increasingly distrusting country, hurting many more innocents than those who are actually guilty.
Do you have any better idea? Those counter-protestors also find themselves in a small country like Lithuania today.

Hong Kong solidarity rally in Vilnius met with Chinese counter-protesters

I hope you're aware that if you're an American waving American flags and shouting USA slogans in countries that have an opposite political ideology, you would be jailed. As for those Chinese students or deluded Chinese middle-aged men going with them, they are the ones bringing a bad name on their community. If they are identifiable and identified while they make trouble, just dump them out.

If you have any ideas, then why don't you just share them with the rest of the audience here?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheForsaken View Post
Seriously, I believe that many people in the west are living in a bubble. They just can't comprehend the idea that the Chinese people actually support their "dictatorship" government, and come to the conclusion that those people are either brainwashed or forced to do so.
Like I wrote earlier, I couldn't care less about their motivations. If they make trouble, then they deserve to be kicked out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kakurin View Post
And I'm amusing myself at how delusional people can get when their view is coloured by radicalism. Cracks everywhere in Mainland China? Somebody apparently understands nothing. The Hong Kong protesters can't even get a majority of Mainlanders living in Hong Kong onto their side. The more radical they get, the less chance they have of getting Mainlanders understanding. They are currently in the nationalist phase of nation building. Democracy, human rights etc are insignificant in Mainland China after the Communist Party delivered unprecedented growth in prosperity over the last 40 years. The CCP is in a far more stable situation than the CPSU in 1989.
If people only measure success by growth and prosperity, then you are not worthy of anybody's time. Your bar on decency is extremely low. There are still just too many people out there who have not evolved beyond the 17th century's Enlightenment period.

I don't know if you're screwing with us because you're Chinese or just someone who doesn't believe in empowering the people. Either way, you are no different from deluded Trump supporters or idiots in Italy who are allowing inhumane laws to be passed against human tragedy. We're done here since you're not enclined in putting basic human rights above anything else.

Last edited by Toukairin; 2019-08-23 at 18:22.
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Old 2019-08-23, 21:12   Link #35
Eisdrache
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It's funny how someone who is so anti-Trump is literally advocating the same paroles he does. Your vision is nothing else than an isolationist state where everyone who doesn't share your views gets deported. Using human rights like a buzz word doesn't work if you're not willing to do it both ways.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toukairin View Post
If people only measure success by growth and prosperity, then you are not worthy of anybody's time. Your bar on decency is extremely low. There are still just too many people out there who have not evolved beyond the 17th century's Enlightenment period.

I don't know if you're screwing with us because you're Chinese or just someone who doesn't believe in empowering the people. Either way, you are no different from deluded Trump supporters or idiots in Italy who are allowing inhumane laws to be passed against human tragedy. We're done here since you're not enclined in putting basic human rights above anything else.
I don't know what ghosts you're fighting but it's not the one you quoted as that one has basically no connection to your reply. Your statement about opinion in China is factually wrong and apparently you cannot handle being told what the actual situation looks like the country. It's called reality. You're free to dislike the current state of affairs but stop acting like fighting fire with a bigger fire is a solution.
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Old 2019-08-23, 21:47   Link #36
Toukairin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eisdrache View Post
It's funny how someone who is so anti-Trump is literally advocating the same paroles he does. Your vision is nothing else than an isolationist state where everyone who doesn't share your views gets deported. Using human rights like a buzz word doesn't work if you're not willing to do it both ways.
Let me ask you this: have you even seen one bit about what those people are doing to pro-Hong Kong protest groups? They started fights (Australia), they threw bottles at people (New York), they forced a police presence to protect pro-HK groups because of online threats, and they forced other rallies to be cancelled because of threats (Montreal, Vancouver, etc.).

There have been clashes between pro-Israel and pro-Palestine groups in the past, but those never went to the point that threat of bodily harm would ever exist. If recent events don't tell you that some people should lose their right to stay in the countries they are in, then I don't know what to say anymore. Those people are everything but exemplary immigrants to integrate to any society.

Also you have not answered my previous question. What is your solution to the problem, especially when pro-Beijing supporters have done nothing but disrespect and attack people who don't like what their country is doing? If an American was waving US flags and shouting at local Chinese only half of the crap Chinese immigrants have shouted at pro-Hong Kong people, that person would be jailed.

Last edited by Toukairin; 2019-08-23 at 22:10.
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Old 2019-08-24, 07:18   Link #37
Eisdrache
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All the things you list are hardly new to demonstrations. If you are consequent in your argumentation then everyone who causes trouble at any rally whatsoever should be ejected from the country. Of course then you run into the problem that not everyone is an immigrant but that long since stopped mattering to you. And why stop there? Anyone who has a differing political opinion can swiftly follow. The list goes on and on. There are thousands of reasons why someone can disagree with someone else's views and you'd throw them all out.

Furthermore if I had a magical solution to the situation then much smarter people would have long found it before. Alas such a thing does not exist. I do not have to come up with a better solution to see that your idea is only trying to pile a worse problem onto the existing one. If you cannot see the spiral this leads to then that only adds to your hypocrisy.
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Old 2019-08-24, 08:24   Link #38
Kakurin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eisdrache View Post
I don't know what ghosts you're fighting but it's not the one you quoted as that one has basically no connection to your reply. Your statement about opinion in China is factually wrong and apparently you cannot handle being told what the actual situation looks like the country. It's called reality. You're free to dislike the current state of affairs but stop acting like fighting fire with a bigger fire is a solution.
It's the classical reply by somebody who can't handle somebody holding up a picture of reality that is disagreeing with his opinion. A very Trumpian approach, which as you pointed out is very ironic and very much amusing: Ignore what was actually being said and instead create an alternative reality of what was being said. Then replace the things actually being said with the alternative reality before proceeding to insult and smash the counterparty. I can only chuckle since in principle I am supportive of the goals of the protestors.
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Old 2019-08-24, 17:47   Link #39
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I think you are all spending more time attacking each other than discussing the actual problem, so at least that needs to stop. I realize this is an issue people feel passionate about, but please stay focused on the issues and not on attacking people in this thread.
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Old 2019-08-24, 20:51   Link #40
Yu Ominae
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Reporting in to mention that the PTU is deployed on protestors again with the usual
Tear gas and batons.

Some MTR stations were closed due to public security reasons, but analysts reported that Chinese media criticized the company for allowing the trains to be used by protestors to go home.
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