Romance in Code Geass (Take 3)

[yvj]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

Even with all of that, its still a big step from friend to lover. And then there's the whole other factor that would prevent a relationship: war. Lelouch is fighting a war, and as such isn't interested in romantic relationships. Now, when the war ends, I can see him getting together with someone, if he won the war and if he survived. But not until then.

Listen I'm not saying they will absolutely get together. They might all die, Kellen might die or Zero may literally be the last man standing. Nothing may happen at all.

I agree it is a big step from friend to lover, that goes for any relationship. But it's not as huge a gap as some "objective" people may like to think in this series.

Like it our not the foundation is there. Whether its built upon remains to be seen.

I somewhat agree with what you're saying here. All I was saying is up to this point in the series to say Kallen is not a close friend (as close you can get with Lelouch seeing how his very best friend has betrayed him in the past) is just wrong IMO.

[Rising Dragon]

Originally Posted by yvj

Listen I'm not saying they will absolutely get together. They might all die, Kellen might die or Zero may literally be the last man standing. Nothing may happen at all.

I agree it is a big step from friend to lover, that goes for any relationship. But it's now as huge a gap as some "objective" people may like to think in this series.

Like it our not the foundation is there. Whether its built upon remains to be seen.

I somewhat agree with what you're saying here. All I was saying is up to this point in the series to say Kallen is not a close friend (as close you can get with Lelouch seeing how his very best friend has betrayed him in the past) is just wrong IMO.

I wasn't saying against your point. At the time, during season 1, she was not that close a friend. And as such, I said she'd need to become a close friend.

Which, through what you've pointed out, is what happened. So yes, the foundation is indeed there. As it is, the actual war and the unknown status of Lelouch's feelings towards her are the main obstacles in a Lelouch/Kallen relationship.

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

If it was between soldier and soldier, then a relationship might be okay, though it'd lead to some dangerous emotions on the battlefield. However, it would not be soldier and soldier with Zero, he is the leader. A relationship would be a distraction, and furthermore, a hindrance. He would hesitate to send Kallen out to the battlefield, and that is one place she cannot be kept from, as you should never hold back in a fight.

So its an extremely important factor that many seem to forget. Relationships in Gundam seem to be okay, but how often in Gundam is the main character the top leader of one side of the conflict?

Also, the episode summaries seem to say that a wedge is driven between the Black Knights--that infers that not all of the Black Knights will betray, I imagine it won't be just Kallen, Jeremiah, and Rolo who sticks by his side. Others will join him, likely, and he'll still have forces to command. And if he's thrown out, then he'd be concentrating not one getting some action with Kallen, but on getting his power back and sticking it to Britannia.

as of ep 20 he is the leader of a one man army (and thats if kallen stays with him)
and he already showed that he hesitate when she's concerned (ep 10)

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

If it was between soldier and soldier, then a relationship might be okay, though it'd lead to some dangerous emotions on the battlefield. However, it would not be soldier and soldier with Zero, he is the leader. A relationship would be a distraction, and furthermore, a hindrance. He would hesitate to send Kallen out to the battlefield, and that is one place she cannot be kept from, as you should never hold back in a fight.

So its an extremely important factor that many seem to forget. Relationships in Gundam seem to be okay, but how often in Gundam is the main character the top leader of one side of the conflict?

This goes back to which side of Lelouch is the real one. There's Zero the leader and Lelouch the older brother. I wouldn't expect his show to address issues of fraternizing within the ranks.

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

Also, the episode summaries seem to say that a wedge is driven between the Black Knights--that infers that not all of the Black Knights will betray, I imagine it won't be just Kallen, Jeremiah, and Rolo who sticks by his side. Others will join him, likely, and he'll still have forces to command. And if he's thrown out, then he'd be concentrating not one getting some action with Kallen, but on getting his power back and sticking it to Britannia.

If the summary with Rolo is to be believed, not many could have stuck with him. Then there's the matter of Nunnally, his motivation having been removed. He won't be the same after this, and who else but Kallen is going to set him straight?

[Rising Dragon]

Morbofist, fix your quote. Bladeofdarkness didn't post that last paragraph, I did. >_>

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

as of ep 20 he is the leader of a one man army (and thats if kallen stays with him)
and he already showed that he hesitate when she's concerned (ep 10)

That's a terrible example. I'd hesitate too, Kallen's energy reserve was low, and he's acknowledged that Xing-ke's more dangerous than he himself is. He'd hesitate throwing anyone into that clusterfuck, not without some serious planning beforehand.

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

Morbofist, fix your quote. Bladeofdarkness didn't post that last paragraph, I did. >_>

That's a terrible example. I'd hesitate too, Kallen's energy reserve was low, and he's acknowledged that Xing-ke's more dangerous than he himself is. He'd hesitate throwing anyone into that clusterfuck, not without some serious planning beforehand.

Sorry, didn't copy correctly. I don't get your response. She threw herself in, lost, and he suddenly dropped his calm demeanor to promise that she'd be rescued. For Lelouch, that is a pretty telling thing to do.

[pingva]

Lelouch needs to talk with someone, like Nina talked with Euphiamia in the first season.

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

Morbofist, fix your quote. Bladeofdarkness didn't post that last paragraph, I did. >_>



That's a terrible example. I'd hesitate too, Kallen's energy reserve was low, and he's acknowledged that Xing-ke's more dangerous than he himself is. He'd hesitate throwing anyone into that clusterfuck, not without some serious planning beforehand.

actually i meant that when he had to make a choice to either leave her or go after her
he not only hesitated
he actually choose to risk everything to get her back (or try to)

[yvj]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

Morbofist, fix your quote. Bladeofdarkness didn't post that last paragraph, I did. >_>



That's a terrible example. I'd hesitate too, Kallen's energy reserve was low, and he's acknowledged that Xing-ke's more dangerous than he himself is. He'd hesitate throwing anyone into that clusterfuck, not without some serious planning beforehand.

It's not that he just hesitated he went against the best course of action. He risked the whole game to save one captured piece. It was illogical which is not a characteristic of Zero at any rate.

[Rising Dragon]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

Sorry, didn't copy correctly. I don't get your response. She threw herself in, lost, and he suddenly dropped his calm demeanor to promise that she'd be rescued. For Lelouch, that is a pretty telling thing to do.

Oh, you're referring to post-fight? I'd get upset too--she is one of his friends, and furthermore, his ace in the hole in battle, as she's got the best machine and the most experience in fighting Suzaku, their biggest problem in battle, in Knightmare Frames. She is the Ace of the Black Knights, after all, and a valuable pilot and weapon.

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

Oh, you're referring to post-fight? I'd get upset too--she is one of his friends, and furthermore, his ace in the hole in battle, as she's got the best machine and the most experience in fighting Suzaku, their biggest problem in battle, in Knightmare Frames. She is the Ace of the Black Knights, after all, and a valuable pilot and weapon.

and he risked the whole army
and his plans
to try and get her back
so the point said earlier about it not being a good idea for the leader to have a romance with one of his soldiers becouse it makes him hesitate to put her in danger is mute
he already hesitated to do it
and actually made the (techticly)wrong choice

[Rising Dragon]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

and he risked the whole army
and his plans
to try and get her back
so the point said earlier about it not being a good idea for the leader to have a romance with one of his soldiers becouse it makes him hesitate to put her in danger is mute
he already hesitated to do it
and actually made the (techticly)wrong choice

Frankly, you just proved my point right there. It made him choose the wrong choice, and it could again.

At any rate, one could also interpret other parts displayed--one, that the indian army could have betrayed them, two, that the majority of his army was against the idea of leaving their ace behind, and trying to rescue her would raise morale, and three, Xing-ke was a dangerous opponent who did need to be put in his place. Those are important things to consider, and Lelouch would consider them. I do not doubt, however, that wanting to save Kallen factored a great deal into the decision.

[Sports72Xtrm]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

Frankly, you just proved my point right there. It made him choose the wrong choice, and it could again.

At any rate, one could also interpret other parts displayed--one, that the indian army could have betrayed them, two, that the majority of his army was against the idea of leaving their ace behind, and trying to rescue her would raise morale, and three, Xing-ke was a dangerous opponent who did need to be put in his place. Those are important things to consider, and Lelouch would consider them. I do not doubt, however, that wanting to save Kallen factored a great deal into the decision.

Well what about the Chiba Todou romance?

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

Frankly, you just proved my point right there. It made him choose the wrong choice, and it could again.

At any rate, one could also interpret other parts displayed--one, that the indian army could have betrayed them, two, that the majority of his army was against the idea of leaving their ace behind, and trying to rescue her would raise morale, and three, Xing-ke was a dangerous opponent who did need to be put in his place. Those are important things to consider, and Lelouch would consider them. I do not doubt, however, that wanting to save Kallen factored a great deal into the decision.

my point is that the risk of hesitating isnt a reason for them not to hook up
since it already exist regardless

[yvj]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

Frankly, you just proved my point right there. It made him choose the wrong choice, and it could again.

At any rate, one could also interpret other parts displayed--one, that the indian army could have betrayed them, two, that the majority of his army was against the idea of leaving their ace behind, and trying to rescue her would raise morale, and three, Xing-ke was a dangerous opponent who did need to be put in his place. Those are important things to consider, and Lelouch would consider them. I do not doubt, however, that wanting to save Kallen factored a great deal into the decision.

I agree that he did make the wrong decision and it;s likely he would mess up again. It's the same with the recent EP with Nunally if that was another Governor in there once Kellen was out he would have just bombarded the place and moved on.

However Sports72Xtrm does bring up a good point about Chiba and Todu.

Speaking of which I think if had been Chiba that had been captured Lulu would have been a ghost. But I have no real basis for saying that

[Rising Dragon]

Originally Posted by Sports72Xtrm

Well what about the Chiba Todou romance?

For now, its one-sided and not a problem, as nothing has come of it. Until it develops, nothing can really be said about it.

EDIT: You people post too fast for me. Slow the hell down.

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

my point is that the risk of hesitating isnt a reason for them not to hook up
since it already exist regardless

And my point is that a strengthening in such a relationship would strengthen hesitation in that regard, and hesitation has NO place on the battlefield whatsoever. A relationship during the war would be a liability.

I'm not saying this because I'm against Kalulu (though I'm not a fan of it) but because I'm being realistic about it.

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

Frankly, you just proved my point right there. It made him choose the wrong choice, and it could again.

At any rate, one could also interpret other parts displayed--one, that the indian army could have betrayed them, two, that the majority of his army was against the idea of leaving their ace behind, and trying to rescue her would raise morale, and three, Xing-ke was a dangerous opponent who did need to be put in his place. Those are important things to consider, and Lelouch would consider them. I do not doubt, however, that wanting to save Kallen factored a great deal into the decision.

My impression was that Lelouch BS'd that "India betrayal" thing so he'd at least look like he had a good reason for not getting backup. He was going along with the other members and his own desire.

[pingva]

Todou is good at running when he smells the topic of romance. Poor Chiba.

[Rising Dragon]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

My impression was that Lelouch BS'd that "India betrayal" thing so he'd at least look like he had a good reason for not getting backup. He was going along with the other members and his own desire.

Maybe, maybe not. It is still a viable point, and a factor one would have to consider, and Lelouch does try to consider all possibilities.

And as much fun as this debate has been, I have to end it here, as its 2 in the morning and I need sleep. If you can give it a rest, I'd be more than happy to take it up in the morning again.

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

Maybe, maybe not. It is still a viable point, and a factor one would have to consider, and Lelouch does try to consider all possibilities.

And as much fun as this debate has been, I have to end it here, as its 2 in the morning and I need sleep. If you can give it a rest, I'd be more than happy to take it up in the morning again.

Fair enough, he might actually have thought it. Still, I think his sudden turnaround at the end of Diethard's little speech is too well-well timed for him to have considered it as viable.

Tomorrow then.