(L+CR) Juuni Taisen: Zodiac War

[Blueknight78]

Originally Posted by orion

Snake could be faking it somehow. He was acting too independently when tracking Rat imo.

yeah i also have the same feelings about snake, he does seens being "too smart" for a headless "zombie" just compare with boar zombie and how she really looked more like a classical zombie and while snake is acting too "smath and fast" for a "just magical animated corpse, i also feel something really weird on him.

[Mister Twit]

Well the preview already gave a really obvious hint, and something I was thinking about last week, that a snake can still have a venomous bite for hours after its head has been cut off. Alternately there's also the mythological Hydra, a serpent which can grow back two heads whenever one of its heads is cut off. So there is some precedent for snakes being able to "resist" decapitation.

[Dengar]

It's probably nothing, but would something change if Snake and Dragon actually exchanged roles for some reason?

[Irenesharda]

Somebody mentioned Rat having mind control before. I don't think that's it, but did you also see how Horse barely said a word but Rat answered everyone of his mental questions AS IF he had said them aloud?

I'm pretty much absolutely certain Rat is going to win this. However, if it was because of some sort of mental powers, he would have interact with pretty much all the key characters in order to win. He honestly seems to be keeping away from most characters if he can help it.
I think it might be more so that he has been through this battle before and perhaps because of this, he knew what Horse was going to ask, even before he asked it.

[wuhugm]

^I said that

The rat is uja uja getting into people's head

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Gan_HOPE326

I wouldn't say that. It's more underestimating the opponent, but I wouldn't call it "plot induced" since for most character we had no reason to think they were smarter than that to begin with. Boar and Dog especially. Chicken didn't die because of stupidity but rather because of her issues - meeting with Monkey weakened her lower her psychological defences. Monkey was reasonably confident, can't help it that Rabbit is a sneaky bastard. And Horse simply played too defensively. He was scared and broken after fighting Ox.

Sheep, yeah, he completely dropped the ball there.

I was just always under the impression that these guys were "the best of the best" or the "cream of the crop" so to speak. To be honest, I was really expecting better (especially from Sheep). Chicken's death does make a little more sense but it still felt horribly contrived how she just ran into Ox like that. Horse died because he couldn't tell that he was having difficulty breathing because of smoke rather than anxiety until it was too late. Even if that isn't stupid, at the very least it's pretty damn pathetic. Monkey may have had more of a reason to be as confident as she was but after seeing three other people die for the same reason, it's just becoming too ridiculous and cheap at this point.

It's just such a contrast to the Chimera Ant Battle arc from Hunter x Hunter that I can't help but compare it to. That arc was just amazing with all its layers of skill, power and psychology. This show just feels so artificial in comparison.

[moridin84]

Originally Posted by Haak

I was just always under the impression that these guys were "the best of the best" or the "cream of the crop" so to speak. To be honest, I was really expecting better (especially from Sheep). Chicken's death does make a little more sense but it still felt horribly contrived how she just ran into Ox like that. Horse died because he couldn't tell that he was having difficulty breathing because of smoke rather than anxiety until it was too late. Even if that isn't stupid, at the very least it's pretty damn pathetic. Monkey may have had more of a reason to be as confident as she was but after seeing three other people die for the same reason, it's just becoming too ridiculous and cheap at this point.

It's just such a contrast to the Chimera Ant Battle arc from Hunter x Hunter that I can't help but compare it to. That arc was just amazing with all its layers of skill, power, and psychology. This show just feels so artificial in comparison.

Well, I don't think you're wrong but there is an interesting difference between this and Hunter X Hunter.

In Hunter X Hunter the different skills and abilities matter. They don't matter at this in this anime. People haven't died because they were weaker or their power was worse than the other person, they died because the other person caught them by surprise.

The abilities that the characters have in this anime are just window dressing. Stuff to make the story look cooler. They could as easily be playing a rock paper scissors tournament.

----

Ah one thing though. Ox managed to find Sheep's hiding place too so he probably has some ability to find people. So he didn't accidentally run into Rooster, he sensed her or whatever.

[Dengar]

Originally Posted by FlameSparkZ

I think he became afraid because Ox broke his spirit, just as it was exlained.

And at this rate, Ox might get taken out by Rabbit, who is now (probably) controlling Monkey...and we all saw what she can do.
If that happens, then he's pretty much unstoppable.

Judging from his flashback, he's been deathly afraid of death since the very beginning, which is why he developed that absolute defense of his to begin with.

He is a coward who uses coward powers to survive in a place he could just as well avoid.

He was the only one who seriously wanted in on that alliance.

[Gan_HOPE326]

Originally Posted by moridin84

Well, I don't think you're wrong but there is an interesting difference between this and Hunter X Hunter.

In Hunter X Hunter the different skills and abilities matter. They don't matter at this in this anime. People haven't died because they were weaker or their power was worse than the other person, they died because the other person caught them by surprise.

The abilities that the characters have in this anime are just window dressing. Stuff to make the story look cooler. They could as easily be playing a rock paper scissors tournament.

I mean, that sounds actually much more realistic re: deadly combat. In HXH they have Nen to shield themselves so they can take some big hits. It's still pretty dangerous stuff but they're not that squishy. But in real battles, humans have a disproportionate ability to inflict harm with respect to what we have to defend ourselves from it. In RPG terms, we're the ultimate glass cannons - especially once you throw firearms into the mix, and if you make it so that armour is not practical. And even with armour, as Horse demonstrated, we're still vulnerable to a lot of other things. Thus, a deadly battle between humans is more likely than not to be decided in a single strike, with a healthy does of luck involved. At most a short exchange. Long, protracted fights with a lot of back-and-forth are cool but just not what would actually happen.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Gan_HOPE326

I mean, that sounds actually much more realistic re: deadly combat. In HXH they have Nen to shield themselves so they can take some big hits. It's still pretty dangerous stuff but they're not that squishy. But in real battles, humans have a disproportionate ability to inflict harm with respect to what we have to defend ourselves from it. In RPG terms, we're the ultimate glass cannons - especially once you throw firearms into the mix, and if you make it so that armour is not practical. And even with armour, as Horse demonstrated, we're still vulnerable to a lot of other things. Thus, a deadly battle between humans is more likely than not to be decided in a single strike, with a healthy does of luck involved. At most a short exchange. Long, protracted fights with a lot of back-and-forth are cool but just not what would actually happen.

Yeah. I've read some stats that indicated the "winners" of gunfights weren't the best shots, but the most able and willing to take cover.

(It makes veteran warrior Monkey's attitude so much more stupid, though...)

[Haak]

Originally Posted by moridin84

In Hunter X Hunter the different skills and abilities matter. They don't matter at this in this anime. People haven't died because they were weaker or their power was worse than the other person, they died because the other person caught them by surprise.

This, I think, is where there is a fundamental difference of perception here. If this is just how fights are like in this story then that's fine by me. Short ugly fights/first strike wins fights are totally fine by me. But I've never once gotten the feeling that these characters a dying because they got caught by surprise. I just get the impression that they're dying from the same unforced error and I'm seeing miles before it actually happens. Seeing it happen once is fair enough (Boar) but then seeing it happen over and over again just feels like the author is being lazy. I'm sure I can safely say that no one was surprised by what happened when Monkey started to develop her plan against Rabbit. And if we're not surprised then how are we supposed to get that these supposedly amazing warriors are being surprised? I mean sure you could argue that we keyboard warriors have the benefit of a bird's eye view but isn't it the job of a story to draw you in and negate that factor? I feel like the story is failing miserably on that front.

Ah one thing though. Ox managed to find Sheep's hiding place too so he probably has some ability to find people. So he didn't accidentally run into Rooster, he sensed her or whatever.

I mean yeah probably, but I'd really appreciate it if a reason behind a death relied on more than just a "probably".

[Nicaea]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Yeah. I've read some stats that indicated the "winners" of gunfights weren't the best shots, but the most able and willing to take cover.

(It makes veteran warrior Monkey's attitude so much more stupid, though...)

Well to be fair, isn't Monkey only a veteran in diplomacy? It's not like she singlehandedly stopped wars through sheer ability.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Nicaea

Well to be fair, isn't Monkey only a veteran in diplomacy? It's not like she singlehandedly stopped wars through sheer ability.

No, but that's how she lived to reach the negotiating table when both sides wanted her dead. There's a reason Sheep or Boar estimated her fighting ability highly.

[Gan_HOPE326]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

No, but that's how she lived to reach the negotiating table when both sides wanted her dead. There's a reason Sheep or Boar estimated her fighting ability highly.

I think the key issue is, these are mostly warriors who usually fight vast numbers of inferior opponents. So while they are strong and with a lot of combat experience, they also are rather cocky. They keep losing to their opponents because they just don't seem to have much experience fighting other people strong like them, and people with powers to boot. In all their flashbacks, too, they seem to be mostly busy slaughtering mooks. So their confidence is not as justified as it seems at a first glance.

[moridin84]

The anime is all setup like a Fate anime and all characters think they are in a Fate anime. It's not a Fate anime.

Originally Posted by Haak

This, I think, is where there is a fundamental difference of perception here. If this is just how fights are like in this story then that's fine by me. Short ugly fights/first strike wins fights are totally fine by me. But I've never once gotten the feeling that these characters a dying because they got caught by surprise. I just get the impression that they're dying from the same unforced error and I'm seeing miles before it actually happens. Seeing it happen once is fair enough (Boar) but then seeing it happen over and over again just feels like the author is being lazy. I'm sure I can safely say that no one was surprised by what happened when Monkey started to develop her plan against Rabbit. And if we're not surprised then how are we supposed to get that these supposedly amazing warriors are being surprised? I mean sure you could argue that we keyboard warriors have the benefit of a bird's eye view but isn't it the job of a story to draw you in and negate that factor? I feel like the story is failing miserably on that front.



I mean yeah probably, but I'd really appreciate it if a reason behind a death relied on more than just a "probably".

You aren't wrong. It's just the author doesn't care about that part of the story.

Originally Posted by Nicaea

Well to be fair, isn't Monkey only a veteran in diplomacy? It's not like she singlehandedly stopped wars through sheer ability.

She was considered really strong. In the top 3. The top was Ox, I forget who the other one was.

She could have beaten Rabbit at pretty much any time but was trying to subdue him.

Originally Posted by Gan_HOPE326

I think the key issue is, these are mostly warriors who usually fight vast numbers of inferior opponents. So while they are strong and with a lot of combat experience, they also are rather cocky. They keep losing to their opponents because they just don't seem to have much experience fighting other people strong like them, and people with powers to boot. In all their flashbacks, too, they seem to be mostly busy slaughtering mooks. So their confidence is not as justified as it seems at a first glance.

These guys have all ranked each other in terms of strength. If someone is weaker then they assume that they don't need to worry about losing.

They all have this "understanding" of the situation and make plans based on that. They assume everything will follow their plans and die when something completely different happens.

[TheForsaken]

Originally Posted by moridin84

The anime is all setup like a Fate anime and all characters think they are in a Fate anime. It's not a Fate anime.

Why do the characters think that they are in a Fate anime when they are not?
It is just ridiculous and purely bad writing if the characters' reasoning is so detached from the world they are in.

In a typical action shounen setting, people know that they won't die easily so they are more eager to fight.
In a realistic setting, people know that anything can one-shot them so they are much more cautious.

If this anime's setting is the latter, then something like "someone very powerful dies in an anti-climatic way because of something he doesn't expect" must have already happened in the past. Why don't the characters learn from it and stop underestimating their opponents?

[moridin84]

Originally Posted by TheForsaken

Why do the characters think that they are in a Fate anime when they are not?
It is just ridiculous and purely bad writing if the characters' reasoning is so detached from the world they are in.

In a typical action shounen setting, people know that they won't die easily so they are more eager to fight.
In a realistic setting, people know that anything can one-shot them so they are much more cautious.

I believe this is the conceit of the show. It's about the dissonance between those two settings.

Well, other things too.

Originally Posted by TheForsaken

If this anime's setting is the latter, then something like "someone very powerful dies in an anti-climatic way because of something he doesn't expect" must have already happened in the past. Why don't the characters learn from it and stop underestimating their opponents?

I'm sure it happens lot. Everyone that it happens to is dead so they can't learn from it.

I'm sure that the Zodiacs seen it happen to other people, but from their perspective, those people were side characters.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Gan_HOPE326

I think the key issue is, these are mostly warriors who usually fight vast numbers of inferior opponents. So while they are strong and with a lot of combat experience, they also are rather cocky. They keep losing to their opponents because they just don't seem to have much experience fighting other people strong like them, and people with powers to boot. In all their flashbacks, too, they seem to be mostly busy slaughtering mooks. So their confidence is not as justified as it seems at a first glance.

That doesn't explain Sheep's behaviour though. As much as I'd like to think that's the case, I still think the much more likelier answer is that the author just didn't really think about it. Now if a character were to lampshade that then I'd believe it willingly but even if it is true then I'd still think the story has done a poor job of portraying that factor.

Originally Posted by moridin84

The anime is all setup like a Fate anime and all characters think they are in a Fate anime. It's not a Fate anime.

That's funny, because I did get the feeling that this show was basically trying to be an edgier version of Fate Stay Night (and a swipe at Kara no Kyoukai in the first episode for good measure). It's just such a shame that it's trying so hard to be edgy that its forgotten everything else about what makes a good story.

And ironic considering that everything that it's edgy about is stuff that the Fate franchise already did, either though the Heaven's Feel route or through Fate/Zero.

[moridin84]

Originally Posted by Haak

That doesn't explain Sheep's behaviour though. As much as I'd like to think that's the case, I still think the much more likelier answer is that the author just didn't really think about it. Now if a character were to lampshade that then I'd believe it willingly but even if it is true then I'd still think the story has done a poor job of portraying that factor.

I'm starting to thinking that the anime didn't portray how drunk Tiger was.

I think that Sheep had the impression that Tiger was completely and utterly dead drunk, to the extent that she could barely walk.

Originally Posted by Haak

That's funny, because I did get the feeling that this show was basically trying to be an edgier version of Fate Stay Night (and a swipe at Kara no Kyoukai in the first episode for good measure). It's just such a shame that it's trying so hard to be edgy that its forgotten everything else about what makes a good story.

And ironic considering that everything that it's edgy about is stuff that the Fate franchise already did, either though the Heaven's Feel route or through Fate/Zero.

I don't think it is or is trying to be an edgier version of Fate Stay/Night. That probably isn't possible anyway.

Bear in mind that the author of Juuni Taisen is Nisio Isin. The author of the Monogatari series, Katanagari and Medaka Box.

I disliked the Monogatari series so I wasn't planning to watch this anime at first but I do consider him to be something of a genius. Everything he writes tends to be slightly "off". So stuff you consider "bad or lazy storytelling" is probably intentional.

----

One thing I always thought was a little bit weird about Fate is that most Servants actually die pretty easily. A single attack can seriously harm or even kill them. Despite this, most fights go on for a long time and often end inconclusively.

In addition, there are plenty of times where one Servant will do a special attack. Even it succeeded then most of the time it won't do any real damage, or if fails then either the other Servant doesn't counter attack or the counterattack doesn't do any real damage.

[TheForsaken]

Originally Posted by moridin84

I believe this is the conceit of the show. It's about the dissonance between those two settings.

The problem is consistency. How the heck does that dissonance happen in the first place?
You can't live in one world but have a different world's way of thinking, unless this is an isekai anime.