(L) Re:Creators

[justpassingby]

Originally Posted by Endscape

So you didn't actually watch the show then. They explained this. There are limits to what the audience will accept, no matter how well you write it, especially when they only have 6 months to work with.

They couldn't, for example, just instantly give Selesia the power to destroy a planet in a single novel. Some smaller power ups are possible, but nothing on a scale needed to fight Altair, and certainly not in 6 months.

And the ones who put that limits are the staffs of this anime. And not an instant power up. Whoever said it was just a single novel?
If the staffs had written that Matsubara had to justify Selesia's power up because she'd be fighting a villain that was on God Level, what stopping the audience to sympathize and accept Selesia's power up?

Also, stop using "haters didn't watch the show". Just because you're liking whatever was shoved, it didn't mean it was good or right.

[Blueknight78]

Originally Posted by justpassingby

And the ones who put that limits are the staffs of this anime. And not an instant power up. Whoever said it was just a single novel?
If the staffs had written that Matsubara had to justify Selesia's power up because she'd be fighting a villain that was on God Level, what stopping the audience to audience to sympathize and accept Selesia's power up?

Also, stop using "haters didn't watch the show". Just because you're liking whatever was shoved, it didn't mean it was good or right.

yeah is pretty common in anime/manga/novel mcs getting "asspull bs powerups" and in a single battle becoming a "god" and the audience still fine with it.

[moridin84]

Originally Posted by Kurohane

By supporting Altair, the audience gave her the abilities to no sell every attack against her. By supporting Altair, they also supported her goals, wanting her to win.

Plently of people like super powerful villians (e.g. Aizen) without wanting them to kill all the good guys abd destroy/take over the world.

Originally Posted by Blueknight78

the same can be said for your statment, just because you like it don't means beliavable, because if have peoples which don't stand in altair side in real world then why in "fiction world" which was supposed to mirror real don't have, this show how your logic is fail, again like =//= beliavable, only a a "perfect world" where everyone like the same thing and have the same mindset which you could see peoples liking and cheering for the same person, is simple like that.

you are just trying to rever the like, deslike concept which is wrong.

Don't you find it difficult to claim something is unbelievable when lots of other people believe it?

[SeijiSensei]

Originally Posted by justpassingby

So we won't have any problem if a fictional construct like her was killed by the heroes, right?

No, not really. Would you?

I liked Selesia but other than being shocked that she was killed off so easily, it wasn't like the shock of watching Magane's creator hanging from a noose.

Originally Posted by Blueknight78

magane also murdered the "bookstore" vendor" with her power summoning a monster from a book to kill him.

Right, I thought there was someone else, just forgot who it was.

I don't recall a lot of gnashing of teeth here when Magane committed those murders. To my mind they were much worse than Selesia and Alice's deaths. Even Hiroe didn't seem to make much of a deal out of them, nor has anyone tried to revise Magane's character.

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by Blueknight78

strange because in real world this not happened, even she being a "meme" you have peoples have in japan which didn't liked it, then this show which that idea of "meme" and everyone will accept is false or is not accurace, if we mirror with real world, which is what was supposed to be.

'Liking' something isn't the same as 'accepting' it.

A person can hate Chuck Norris memes, but they still accept that those memes are a thing that are popular.

Originally Posted by justpassingby

So we won't have any problem if a fictional construct like her was killed by the heroes, right?

No, there wouldn't be. You can tell on account of everyone trying to kill her.

Originally Posted by Blueknight78

that show how something is wrong with the show, because he keep saying which acceptance is the base for everything, then in the end they get a "asspull" from magane e souta and "break the acceptance" to allow setsuna to "spawn"

Yes, Souta cheated. He used Magane's ability, which is as OP as anything Altair's got, to make the impossible happen

if acceptance was so that important her power was not supposed to work and even with that, souta could be much more smart if instead of "summon" setsuna he used this power to break altair link with audience during the battle rending her powerless and her clone could had beat her easy,but he "waited" until last second and when everything failed to do that, souta and magane had the power to stop altair at anytime based on that episode, specially magane she had the power to stop altair among all the characters.

You're assuming Magane's abilty would work on Altair. It wouldn't. That's why they went with the sneaky option

Originally Posted by justpassingby

And not an instant power up. Whoever said it was just a single novel?

How much do you expect people to write in 6 months? A power up like that, if it was possible at all, would be the culmination of a long arc spanning years and multiple novels.

If the staffs had written that Matsubara had to justify Selesia's power up because she'd be fighting a villain that was on God Level, what stopping the audience to audience to sympathize and accept Selesia's power up?

No one is going to accept a character getting a super power up out of nowhere to fight an OP villian that comes out of nowhere

Also, stop using "haters didn't watch the show".

Then stop misrepresenting what was actually in the show.

[drawr]

Originally Posted by moridin84

You know, people sure get worked up on the words "murder" and "murderer" sometimes. Killing people is pretty common in anime. Murder is simply "unlawful killing" which is also pretty common.

When a villain kills characters who are trying to help the world everyone should throw a blind eye? Then maybe the show should not make a spectacle of a characters being murdered, going so far as hosting a funeral IRL for one or having other characters react in anguished and shocked ways when one dies. If she had justifiable reasons for killing people maybe I could care for her, but the only thing she really has going for her is looking cool.

Personally, I don't think the fights in the episodes before this were pointless. Most the battles in ReCreator were pretty inconclusive. Generally, people said that they wanted to say and then left for one reason or another. This was the same. Every fight in the last few episodes was meaningful for the ones in them. Well, probably not Hikayu Hoshikawa but she was a gag fighting character anyways.

How were the fights in the last few episodes any different? Mirokuji and the main character from his series had no reason to even be there and contributed nothing but a small distraction. And for all that everyone else did they were interrupted at every point and all those months of preparation did nothing for them. Selesia had to die just to make the audience "accept" a plot twist more and in the end it didn't do anything but power up the enemy more. It's a series of useless and hopeless actions in a one-sided fight, like everything Altair ever participates in. Everyone knew only Souta's plan would succeed but it doesn't make it any more interesting to watch what the show spent the bulk of time on fail.

[Blueknight78]

Originally Posted by Endscape

'Liking' something isn't the same as 'accepting' it.

A person can hate Chuck Norris memes, but they still accept that those memes are a thing that are popular.

chuck norris memes are not accepted as his "real power" they are just "joke" if he appeared in a movie doing even "half of what memes show, i could really doubt peoples "accept it" unless it was a full gag comedy nonsense show but in a serious drama i really doubt.[/quote]

You're assuming Magane's abilty would work on Altair. It wouldn't. That's why they went with the sneaky option

you can point where they told which her power could not "work on altair"??? if she could shut up the audience acceptance to make setsuna appear, what could prevent her to use the same to cut the acceptance on how hax she is unless you can point where was told it then i will acccept, but so far nothing was told toward it, then so far we don't really know how effective magane could be against altair if she really wanted, nothing was told about that(at last which i remember if you can point for me something like that then fine).

How much do you expect people to write in 6 months? A power up like that, if it was possible at all, would be the culmination of a long arc spanning years and multiple novels.

No one is going to accept a character getting a super power up out of nowhere to fight an OP villian that comes out of nowhere

coff, coff, hello frieza gold in 4 months????, goku going super sayan after krilin death???, females sayan??, anime/manga/novel market is full of bs asspull powerups coming out of nowhere and while some peoples can complain in the end they ending accept because it is common in this market

actually a lot of peoples accept it in anime/novel/manga market, that situation are pretty common a op villian appearing then a heroe getting a op powerup bs to defeat him because was the "last battle", this is pretty common for them.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by moridin84

By the way, can you really not understand why people wanted to kill the mutants in X-Men? If so then you have a very fundamental problem of not being able to see things from other peoples perspectives.

It is off topic, but even the Anime version of the Avengers cartoon, the in-universe characters ask why Mutants are hated but every other superhero isn't.

And FYI, even Marvel realised the hatred is stupid. Because you know what is the official explanation for mutant hatred? A contagious bacteria that magically made all humans irrationally hate mutants. This is OFFICIAL.

http://marvel.wikia.com/wiki/Sublime_(Earth-616)

Basically, the Mutants were a major threat to Sublime's existance, so the entire human population is manipulated into irrational desire to kill mutants.

[justpassingby]

Originally Posted by Endscape

How much do you expect people to write in 6 months? A power up like that, if it was possible at all, would be the culmination of a long arc spanning years and multiple novels.

How much you expect a group of people not to be able to write for 6 months that they had to go to onsen after hard work? How hard is it to accept that there was an evil villain that tried to destroy the world, and heroes actually found a way to defeat her in 3-4 novels?
Now you're just pretending not to be able to accept because you want the imaginary audience not to accept like you too.

Originally Posted by Endscape

No one is going to accept a character getting a super power up out of nowhere to fight an OP villian that comes out of nowhere

But they did accept for a while for Selesia's power up in Ep 10. What stopping the fans to accept a super power up if it was life and death situation?

Originally Posted by Endscape

Then stop misrepresenting what was actually in the show.

What was represented by the show was specifically contrived just so that the heroes won't be able to defeat Altair. Why should I accept that?

[Kurohane]

For one thing, Altair is not the protagonist of this series. The staff can say it all they want; it's not true. The most basic rule of storytelling is that the "shujinkou", the term the anime keeps using, or protagonist is the one who the story follows. They don't have to be the very center of events but are eventually drawn into them, and we follow them as they go through them. Ash from Pokemon is the definitive protagonist of his series, but he's a vanilla protagonist. He's meant to draw the audiences attention more to his surroundings and people he meets on his journey. There's also the protagonist who faces tribulations and grows in order to defeat the main antagonist. There's also stories that have multiple protagonist that share significant focus over the story's main events.

We never follow Altair as she summons these characters from other stories and how she came into contact with them. We only get glimpses of what she was doing throughout the entire series until near the end. The last few episodes is the most we've seen her than all other appearances combined. I think the subs really failed to get across the term "shujinkou"'s meaning. It doesn't mean "hero" or "main character". There can be many main characters, but usually only one "protagonist", but there are exceptions as I mentioned above. The series itself didn't understand what comprises a protagonist, because while they can be the "center" of the events, it didn't follow the key aspect in that they are also the ones we follow throughout the story.

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by justpassingby

How much you expect a group of people not to be able to write for 6 months that they had to go to onsen after hard work?

I would be astonished if Matsubara, for example, managed to write and publish more than 2 novels from scratch in 6 months, and even that would be pushing it.

It's not simply a matter of the amount of content written either, but the time elapsed. 6 months is a short time for an audience to familiarize themselves with anything.

But they did accept for a while for Selesia's power up in Ep 10. What stopping the fans to accept a super power up if it was life and death situation?

If Altair didn't show up out of nowhere, and the series as whole was building up to her defeat, then yeah, maybe the audience would have accepted it.

What was represented by the show was specifically contrived just so that the heroes won't be able to defeat Altair. Why should I accept that?

Nobody said you have to like it, but canon is canon.

[justpassingby]

Originally Posted by Endscape

If Altair didn't show up out of nowhere, and the series as whole was building up to her defeat, then yeah, maybe the audience would have accepted it.



Nobody said you have to like it, but canon is canon.

Altair was at the center of ECF poster in between Selesia and Meteora that was promoted in universe and in our universe. She didn't just show up from out nowhere.
You sure you were paying attention?
Why wouldn't the content of ECF was not to defeat Altair? Because Hiroe said so?
And if the series wasn't about defeating Altair, why did the heroes even bother trying to fight, right?

Because I'm not liking this terrible canon that I'm criticizing. Stupid canon should not be accepted in the first place.

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by justpassingby

Altair was at the center of ECF poster in between Selesia and Meteora that was promoted in universe and in our universe. She didn't just show up from out nowhere.
You sure you were paying attention?

6 months is basically out of nowhere, mate.

To justify the kind of powerup you would want them to give her, she'd need to be a prominent villain for way longer than that.

Because I'm not liking this terrible canon that I'm criticizing. Stupid canon should not be accepted in the first place.

You can criticize and dislike as much as you like. you don't get to pretend it doesn't exist or misrepresent it.

[justpassingby]

Originally Posted by Endscape

6 months is basically out of nowhere, mate.

To justify the kind of powerup you would want them to give her, she'd need to be a prominent villain for way longer than that.



You can criticize and dislike as much as you like. you don't get to pretend it doesn't exist or misrepresent it.

Altair was a prominent villain for 6 months that we have been watching this anime, and by the 3rd/4th episode the heroes already decided to defeat Altair. What stopping the imaginary audience to accept she was the villain in the 4th week in their universe? You?

And of course I got to dislike it. When you don't like something, you wished it would've happened in different ways. Why it didn't happen in different ways? Because Altair is Hiroe's favorite that he won't be able to kill.

[Blueknight78]

Originally Posted by Endscape

6 months is basically out of nowhere, mate.

To justify the kind of powerup you would want them to give her, she'd need to be a prominent villain for way longer than that.
.

agai them explain me why in real life" you actually get a lot of bw power up out of nowhere in animes, manga and novels with easy and cheap/garbage explanation like "nakama power, friendship power and others bs power ups and only on this serie is so hard????

you stil don't give me a explanation for that.

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by justpassingby

Altair was a prominent villain for 6 months that we have been watching this anime, and by the 3rd/4th episode the heroes already decided to defeat Altair. What stopping the imaginary audience to accept she was the villain in the 4th week in their universe? You?

The ECF took around 6 months from start to finish, which is when the in-universe audience even heard of Altair. Unlike in Re:Creators, where she was the main villain from Day 1, she would be an interloper to the in-universe audience.

In order to justify giving a hero a huge power up that would literally wreck the power scaling in their universe, you need a villain that has been sufficiently developed, like an Aizen, who was around for years before Ichigo got the power-up to beat him.

1 or 2 novels written in 6 months is simply not enough time to build up Altair as a villain deserving of that kind of power-up to defeat.

And of course I got to dislike it. When you don't like something, you wished it would've happened in different ways. Why it didn't happen in different ways? Because Altair is Hiroe's favorite that he won't be able to kill.

You can wish it was different as much as you like. That doesn't mean you ignore or misrepresent the canon when you're discussing it.

[Blueknight78]

Originally Posted by Endscape

The ECF took around 6 months from start to finish, which is when the in-universe audience even heard of Altair. Unlike in Re:Creators, where she was the main villain from Day 1, she would be an interloper to the in-universe audience.

In order to justify giving a hero a huge power up that would literally wreck the power scaling in their universe, you need a villain that has been sufficiently developed, like an Aizen, who was around for years before Ichigo got the power-up to beat him.

1 or 2 novels written in 6 months is simply not enough time to build up Altair as a villain deserving of that kind of power-up to defeat.



You can it was different as much as you like. That doesn't mean you ignore or misrepresent the canon when you're discussing it.

actually you can ignore the canon, remember how the useless girl get a powerup from outside the canon and become a strong fighter, what is matter is how smart the writers of the serie want the creators(i'm talking about hiroe the creators of re:creators), is possible to give cheap, fast and big power ups all they need is be "creative".

[justpassingby]

The audiences knew Altair earlier than ECF, from the Pixiv. And if you're going to use Bleach for example, how many years did it take for Goku on planet Nameck to become super saiya when he faced Freeza? Events in UC Novels only happened for weeks but people didn' have problem with Newtype Hax whenever the plot demanded it. I'm sure there are lores from each of the heroes' stories that can be used to power up them to equal Altair.
Hiroe just stopped being creative for the side characters because the story was not about defeating Altair, right? Poor heroes.

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by justpassingby

The audiences knew Altair earlier than ECF, from the Pixiv.

They knew her as a meme, not as an actual character.

And if you're going to use Bleach for example, how many years did it take for Goku on planet Nameck to become super saiya when he faced Freeza?

Let's see, Vegeta started foreshadowing Super Saiyans in chapter 280, and Goku actually became a Super Saiyan in chapter 318, so it took basically 38 chapters in 9 months time.

I trust you can tell the difference between that and a couple of novels belted out in 6 months.

I'm sure there are lores from each of the heroes' stories that can be used to power up them to equal Altair.

Considering most of these characters are from fairly low powered universes, and Altair is powered by the force of a million memes, I doubt it.

[RDNexus]

From what I can conclude, Hiroe-sensei may have either royally screwed up on those matters or chosen to do so on purpose for a number of reasons (either good and/or bad). Without the author's input, it's difficult to reach a proper understanding.


Let us not forget that Miss OP Altair was capable of dispelling all kinds of Power-Ups, making the Creations regress to their base settings. She did so with Hikayu, for a better example. She was so OP that any nice strategy against her ended up failing, even that double of her that was brought up.


I, for one, can also say I was VERY pissed off at the fact the fictional audiences were so drawn-in to Altair's charisma while she was curbstomping everyone and making that piss-hateful mug on her face. I just wanted someone to wipe that damn mug off her face.
I'm also the kind who doesn't get awed by charismatic antagonists. I can't stop seeing them as entities who have to be stopped at all costs.