AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Log Horizon

Notices

View Poll Results: Log Horizon - Episode 9 Rating
Perfect 10 16 28.57%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 21 37.50%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 13 23.21%
7 out of 10 : Good 4 7.14%
6 out of 10 : Average 1 1.79%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 1 1.79%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 56. You may not vote on this poll

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old 2013-12-05, 15:50   Link #101
Krono
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by tsunade666 View Post
That's a blatant lie from the claimer. I read the novel and that didn't happen at all. Shiroe just bought the building and he could blacklist people so they can't access the bank.
Yeah, I'm aware none of it happened in the least in the novel. The problem is that he seems to really believe it and thinks he's defending the series by arguing it. I think the sunk cost fallacy is at play, he spent a few weeks arguing some of them literally couldn't just walk out, and now that they did just that he's grasping at straws to avoid being wrong. So you can see why I'm looking elsewhere for more rational discussion of the subject.

Quote:
the whole exit/entrance restriction is really messing things up
Indeed, that's why I'm curious as to whether there's any concrete answers to it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aohige View Post
Not at all, it'd be treating the zone like a dungeon.
In many games you can't just teleport out of it, and death simply spawns you at the entrance (which is how it works in Elder Tales too).
Ah, I see what you're saying now. Yeah, that's possible, though it still doesn't seem very likely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Estavali View Post
I think the simplest reason one can give here is that in the midst of all this excitement, the Hamelin boys forgot about blocking the twins from leaving their guild hall
That was certainly my first thought. The problem is that I'd like to think Mamare's a better author than that. Not only would it nudge Hamelin further towards being comically inept villains which I don't think is what Mamare was going for with the whole slavers and various other evils thing they've got going on; but it'd change Shiroe's rescue. At no point in Shiroe's planning, or in others thinking about the beginners escaping Hamelin, did the concern that Minori or other crafters could be locked in by system restrictions arise. If exits restrictions were available to Hamelin's guild master and he just didn't use them, Shiroe's plan goes from a clever bit of rules lawyering to keep Hamelin from immediate pursuit of the beginners, to it being pure dumb luck that Minori didn't reach the door to find herself locked in.

In short, instead of Minori's escape being cleverness on Shiroe's part, it'd be pure luck.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DQueenie13 View Post
If anything, you can try going on /a/ next weekend and hope that you're in time for the Q&A session with Mamare to ask the man himself. (Worry not, there will be translators.)
The thought crossed my mind, but it'd probably be too much of a pain in the butt to catch the Q&A.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Estavali View Post
I think the simplest reason one can give here is that in the midst of all this excitement, the Hamelin boys forgot about blocking the twins from leaving their guild hall
This would be something done ahead of time. If the crafters are never supposed to leave the guild hall, and you can restrict them from doing so, then why not do so? Instead of having to constantly guard them so they don't slip out during the day, you could just check on them now and then to make sure they aren't slacking off.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ayulsa View Post
But what if different different buildings had different restriction types.
Misc building (cathedral, Guild Building)
Guild hall
Area (cities, zones)
That would certainly easily cover it. Again the problem being that it would need to actually be stated somewhere to fill in the plot hole.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Wing View Post
Well all in all even if it was for the greater good Shiroe has opened a huge can of worms. now that people know they can buy property whats stopping some wealthy nut job from buying property in some small remote NPC village and ruling it with an iron fist?
Technically nothing. However some crappy village in the middle of nowhere won't be that interesting to rule. There wouldn't be any other players around to lord over, just people of the land. There wouldn't be a Cathedral nearby, so if you died you'd have to trek back. PvP being on would basically be an open invitation for any party that felt so inclined to PK you until you couldn't meet the upkeep. Speaking of which, buying a village and enough of the surrounding farmland to control it would probably cost quite a bit. Enough that you'd probably need the resources of a fair sized guild to buy and support it, placing some constraints on who could actually buy it.
Krono is offline  
Old 2013-12-06, 05:28   Link #102
Estavali
物語は、もう、おしまい……?
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: In the Horizon
Age: 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by Krono View Post
That was certainly my first thought. The problem is that I'd like to think Mamare's a better author than that. Not only would it nudge Hamelin further towards being comically inept villains which I don't think is what Mamare was going for with the whole slavers and various other evils thing they've got going on; but it'd change Shiroe's rescue. At no point in Shiroe's planning, or in others thinking about the beginners escaping Hamelin, did the concern that Minori or other crafters could be locked in by system restrictions arise. If exits restrictions were available to Hamelin's guild master and he just didn't use them, Shiroe's plan goes from a clever bit of rules lawyering to keep Hamelin from immediate pursuit of the beginners, to it being pure dumb luck that Minori didn't reach the door to find herself locked in.

In short, instead of Minori's escape being cleverness on Shiroe's part, it'd be pure luck.
I think Mamare would be happy for your confidence in him, but I think it's more realistic to believe that even good authors can and will make mistakes or forget to take a point or two into consideration from time to time =3

Also, there's nothing wrong imho about expecting people to be stupid or just simply careless. It's a possible scenario and not something that can't be expected from a group of people who had been defeated without knowing why or how or even by whom.

To be honest, I often think that it's very silly for folks making a mountain out of an anthill that can be explained with a clear, simple and totally rational reason =3. It's like having a leaf drop off a tree and every onlooker to come up with a thousand and one complicated theories and interpretations of why the leaf have fallen, from the High Gods' decree at the Dawn of Time about the Order of all things Temporal and Not, to Omens of the End to come and the Why, When and Where it will come, when the reason is simply "the leaf has dropped off".

Quote:
This would be something done ahead of time. If the crafters are never supposed to leave the guild hall, and you can restrict them from doing so, then why not do so? Instead of having to constantly guard them so they don't slip out during the day, you could just check on them now and then to make sure they aren't slacking off.
Good point. The only reason I can think of is simply this: Hamelin, and the newbies themselves, have the opinion that even if the newbies escape, they would have nowhere to go, nobody to turn to. Shredder's remark while he pinned Touya to the door is without a doubt to weaken his spirit and resolve, but imho it also reflects how desperate the newbies, and ironically perhaps their tormentors as well, are.

Without a goal, or even someone to tell them what to do, Hamelin and the newbies (and pretty much everyone else, including Shiroe and team) are reduced to doing only what they think they can do. Minori's monologue in the previous episode has quite nicely showed us what the newbies might have thought of their situation: weak, helpless, a burden to others. Would anyone want them? No, so they think, much less strangers who have no obligations to them (remember that these players are new to ET and unlike the old-timers have little to no friends in it, except perhaps each other). Even if they had escaped on their own (and normally it's kinda unthinkable why anyone from the field team has not taken that chance), to where and whom can they turn to? What if they come across people worse than Hamelin? The future is so uncertain, that even sticking with Hamelin might look better in comparison. At least they have a roof over their heads and regular meals.

In a way there is a similar question asked in MaoYuu, "Why don't the serfs rise against their masters, since their lives are so full of pain and sorrow?"

The answer was simply, "Because we don't know the alternatives. We might see the masters drink and feast and make merry all day, but never a moment did we think ourselves doing the same as well."

The same, methinks, can be applied here.
__________________

Signature by liro
Estavali is offline  
Old 2013-12-06, 06:15   Link #103
tsunade666
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: In my room
I think Hamelin members being stupid is possible. Remember shredder being stupid didn't use the teacher system or whatever the name of the system is. He is stuck up with higher level and likes to inflict pain on the newbies. His level isn't that high but he still refused to lower to the level of the newbies to not attract agro of the mobs. What do you call that? ah stupid.
__________________
tsunade666 is offline  
Old 2013-12-06, 06:37   Link #104
Ickarium
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Pretty much, yes. I'm not sure why they can't be stupid to a degree, or at least stupidly arrogant. It's a human failing. I'm fairly sure you can find lots of examples of that sort of thing happening iRL. It's not a hole in the story.
__________________
Ickarium is offline  
Old 2013-12-06, 07:14   Link #105
Sheba
RUN, YOU FOOLS!
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Formerly Iwakawa base and Chaldea. Now Teyvat, the Astral Express & the Outpost
Age: 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by tsunade666 View Post
I think Hamelin members being stupid is possible. Remember shredder being stupid didn't use the teacher system or whatever the name of the system is. He is stuck up with higher level and likes to inflict pain on the newbies. His level isn't that high but he still refused to lower to the level of the newbies to not attract agro of the mobs. What do you call that? ah stupid.
Shredder never intended to level up the newbies, which is why he never used the mentor system. I think he have grown complacent, thinking that his constant bullying have broken them beyond all hope. He then forgot about the proverbial cornered mouse.
__________________
<a rel=nofollow href=http://forums.animesuki.com/group.php?groupid=959 target=_blank>Kancolle Social Group</a>
Sheba is offline  
Old 2013-12-06, 23:46   Link #106
Kokukirin
Shadow of Effilisi
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
The Hamelin members did not use the teacher system because they did not care. Their only goal was to exploit the newbies as much as possible for profit. They only had to make sure the newbies never reach their level or have decent equipments to have a chance to fight back.

They were clever enough to think of exploiting newbies for EXP bottles and sell to top battle guilds. I wouldn't call them stupid. They are just average evil villians.
Kokukirin is offline  
Old 2013-12-07, 00:03   Link #107
Kamui04
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ickarium View Post
Pretty much, yes. I'm not sure why they can't be stupid to a degree, or at least stupidly arrogant. It's a human failing. I'm fairly sure you can find lots of examples of that sort of thing happening iRL. It's not a hole in the story.
Putting aside the entrance/exit restrictions. And the stupidity or failure to set the settings for the beginners.

Why the beginners didn't try to escape before Shiroe's operation?

Spoiler for References to source material about Hamelin testing what the system punishes as aggression:


The best examples are those RL ones of kids kidnapped and held prisoners for many years and later escaping their captors. One good example of having the doors wide open and the captive not trying to escape would be the case of the three girls kidnapped by Ariel Castro. Not gonna go in detail but you can read about it in wikipedia or find some documentaries about the case.

But even if they didn't use the system restrictions, psychology plays a big role on the captives.
Kamui04 is offline  
Old 2013-12-07, 10:21   Link #108
GundamFan
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Personally I'd say them being the kids being able to leave is a lot less of an issue then that they had not restriction placed there ability to use attack skills which was shown by I've got a couple ideas about this that could explain both. One is that Hamelin kept there slave labor kept on a single restriction list which could be toggled on or off and during the commotion there just didn't think to turn it back on. The other is Hamelin was intentionally leaving them opening possibly even hoping the newbies would try to rebel at this point since they were still weak enough they could put it down with force. I think the later is more likely because sooner or later the members of the hunting party would become strong enough they'd be difficult to control unless they've been mentally broken.
GundamFan is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 21:11.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
We use Silk.