GATE - Episode 9 Discussion / Poll

[Brother Coa]

And yeah, one more thing I oversaw - the princess trip to the library.
I know it was for the LOL and BL but how she oversaw possibility to get some world history books?

[Chosen_Hero]

Just saying but if japan had time to set all of that up than the other countries had time to plan amd set something up also, besides by how everything was planned it seems like it was known ahead of time that they would have visitors from beyond the gate.

Also some of you seem to underestimate the intel gathering prowess of any country (a day or two is enough to get a lot of intel, especially in this day and age), they always know more than you think they do or anyone else thinks they do (ex. The blackmailing in the episode) and yes, nothing ever goes as planned but when planning an infiltration on allied soil (of all places) without their knowledge they have to know their shit and they need to plan it out accordingly, here they were just give the idiot ball to prove how "badass" the JSDF can be (take note of how not even one soldier from their side has died).

As for Black Hawk Down that whole affair was more complex than you think or know it was (I should know since i met someone who was there when I went to basic training and he told me as much and how the movie tones down what really happened), it was a situation where different kinds of problems were piling on top of the other, pretty much the literal definition of a shitstorm, trying to compare that to this situation is pretty disingenuous and in my opinion of bad taste.

[Znail]

Originally Posted by Chosen_Hero

Just saying but if japan had time to set all of that up than the other countries had time to plan amd set something up also, besides by how everything was planned it seems like it was known ahead of time that they would have visitors from beyond the gate.

Also some of you seem to underestimate the intel gathering prowess of any country (a day or two is enough to get a lot of intel, especially in this day and age), they always know more than you think they do or anyone else thinks they do (ex. The blackmailing in the episode) and yes, nothing ever goes as planned but when planning an infiltration on allied soil (of all places) without their knowledge they have to know their shit and they need to plan it out accordingly, here they were just give the idiot ball to prove how "badass" the JSDF can be (take note of how not even one soldier from their side has died).

As for Black Hawk Down that whole affair was more complex than you think or know it was (I should know since i met someone who was there when I went to basic training and he told me as much and how the movie tones down what really happened), it was a situation where different kinds of problems were piling on top of the other, pretty much the literal definition of a shitstorm, trying to compare that to this situation is pretty disingenuous and in my opinion of bad taste.

OK, so in your world <non-Japanese> intelligence is so good that it's totally impossible for Japan to make any kind of secret plans without <non-Japanese> knowing every detail about it? I don't think you are in a position to call someone else on nationalistic bias.

The funny thing is that these kind of comments kind of validates that stereotype in this episode of foreign nations underestimating the Japanese.

[SakurazukaJames]

Originally Posted by Hmm....

Actually, it's still there. They reported one of operative is African. Then, defense minister realized something and tried to make a phone call. It's not as clear but it's still there. I thought they gonna cut it out altogether, considering all the tone downed they had been doing.

This remark however, while I agree it is very stereotypical and kinda racist, it's not wrong in the sense that many Japanese do have such stereotype. It's not necessary a bad thing either, it mean they see USA as a more open nation to black people than other country. It's not any worse than when some westerner talking about Asian and they goes "Ninja!!" "Buddha!!", something like that.

Wow, you are REALLY reaching to make that sound good, aren't you?

[LoweGear]

Originally Posted by SakurazukaJames

Wow, you are REALLY reaching to make that sound good, aren't you?

It does happen though. I've seen Westerners describe Asians with stereotypes like "timid", "good at math", "respectful", "yellow", "brown monkeys", etc.

Also, while equating black men to America may seem reaching, statistically the chances of America having black men in its military forces are much, much higher than for any other country on Earth, given that almost a quarter of the US Armed Forces consists of African Americans, one of the highest proportions in any military anywhere. More discerning minds probably wouldn't jump to the conclusion that black people = US right away, but the probability is quite high for it to be a definitive possibility.

[Znail]

Originally Posted by LoweGear

It does happen though. I've seen Westerners describe Asians with stereotypes like "timid", "good at math", "respectful", "yellow", "brown monkeys", etc.

Also, while equating black men to America may seem reaching, statistically the chances of America having black men in its military forces are much, much higher than for any other country on Earth, given that almost a quarter of the US Armed Forces consists of African Americans, one of the highest proportions in any military anywhere. More discerning minds probably wouldn't jump to the conclusion that black people = US right away, but the probability is quite high for it to be a definitive possibility.

It's also worth noting that the other main suspects, China and Russia have a very low number of military with African descent. Mexico, Brasil or African nations aren't exactly prime suspects. France and UK would be, but US would still be a more likely candidate to pull stunts like this.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by LoweGear

It does happen though. I've seen Westerners describe Asians with stereotypes like "timid", "good at math", "respectful", "yellow", "brown monkeys", etc.

Also, while equating black men to America may seem reaching, statistically the chances of America having black men in its military forces are much, much higher than for any other country on Earth, given that almost a quarter of the US Armed Forces consists of African Americans, one of the highest proportions in any military anywhere. More discerning minds probably wouldn't jump to the conclusion that black people = US right away, but the probability is quite high for it to be a definitive possibility.

...

I'm pretty sure black African countries have an even greater proportion of Blacks in their ranks. Unless you mean really African Americans, and then yes, the US has a quasi-monopoly of Anything American soldiers.

[Magewolf]

I did see that there were 3 attacking team but the only ones identified are the U.S. agents, I guess the other 2 are Russian and Chinese. I am not saying anything about how incompetent the attack was because it seems to upset people.

However what I do not understand is how a few people from beyond the Gate can be worth taking unprecedented and potentiality incredibly damaging to the US actions, who has info that can bring down the Japanese government anyway, but access to the Gate itself is not even worth talking about.

That is why I wrote that it existed only to show US agents being killed. Actually thinking about it more this puts the Japanese government in a worse and worse light. They laid claim to a whole planet, they are withholding info from their own Diet, they are surveying the other side of the Gate for future use , and they seem to be denying access to any info from beyond the Gate to even their closest ally.

[kyp275]

Originally Posted by Znail

OK, so in your world <non-Japanese> intelligence is so good that it's totally impossible for Japan to make any kind of secret plans without <non-Japanese> knowing every detail about it? I don't think you are in a position to call someone else on nationalistic bias.

The funny thing is that these kind of comments kind of validates that stereotype in this episode of foreign nations underestimating the Japanese.

No, I think his point is that this show tends to trivialize every "<non-Japanese>" faction. Which, to be fair, is something the media in every country does to some extend.

The problem I think isn't so much that, but rather the clash between this and Gate's attempt at something resembling realism on the part of the military action up to this point. To be honest, this is also the part that was the most jarring for me as well in the manga. Not the pro-JP bias - but the cartoony/sheer idiocy of the antagonists that were supposed to be on their same level.

It's fine to have cartoony and idiotic villains when you're fighting against medieval grunts who don't know any better, it doesn't work nearly as well when you try to do the same thing to opponents that is supposed to be on the same playing field as you. It may not seem obvious to those without military experience or knowledge, but let's just say the level of "tactics" displayed here is... calling it idiotic would be too high of a praise. I can pull a PFC straight out of bootcamp and he'd come up with a better plan than what's shown here.

Moreover, in the real world, the kind of "lol underestimate the enemy" you and the show are thinking of doesn't exist. A round fired from an amateur's weapon is no less deadly than one fired from an expert. What makes special forces "special" isn't so much the individual prowess, though that's certainly a part of it, but rather the level of intelligence and logistical support.

In the real world, people don't even "underestimate" poor villagers with AKs, the idea that anyone remotely competent - be they US or Chinese or Russia or whomever, would "underestimate" a mission that involves penetration into a major regional power to grab what is most likely the most visible target on the planet at the time to the point of basically sending in their forces blind with zero support is... yea.

[DemonneoPT]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

...
I'm pretty sure black African countries have an even greater proportion of Blacks in their ranks. Unless you mean really African Americans, and then yes, the US has a quasi-monopoly of Anything American soldiers.

Yes, because African countries totally were the prime suspects to attack Japan..lol. Just read what this guy wrote:

Originally Posted by Znail

It's also worth noting that the other main suspects, China and Russia have a very low number of military with African descent. Mexico, Brasil or African nations aren't exactly prime suspects. France and UK would be, but US would still be a more likely candidate to pull stunts like this.

If the main suspects were the US, Russia and China, is that so outrageous and racist for the Japanese to think the black soldiers came from the US? Or is that common for China or even the "blondie" Russians to have black people in their armies too? Once again, i really do not understand what's the problem. It's as if some of you are so butthurt to see the americans as the "bad guys", when in reality, the anime is just showing the US trying to gain access to information about the GATE. What is also funny, is that the anime is portraying the Japanese leaders as dirty and corrupt, but no one bats an eye to that. I wonder why!

[Chosen_Hero]

Originally Posted by Znail

OK, so in your world <non-Japanese> intelligence is so good that it's totally impossible for Japan to make any kind of secret plans without <non-Japanese> knowing every detail about it? I don't think you are in a position to call someone else on nationalistic bias.

The funny thing is that these kind of comments kind of validates that stereotype in this episode of foreign nations underestimating the Japanese.

Yep, because that's what I meant.

Originally Posted by kyp275

No, I think his point is that this show tends to trivialize every "<non-Japanese>" faction. Which, to be fair, is something the media in every country does to some extend.

The problem I think isn't so much that, but rather the clash between this and Gate's attempt at something resembling realism on the part of the military action up to this point. To be honest, this is also the part that was the most jarring for me as well in the manga. Not the pro-JP bias - but the cartoony/sheer idiocy of the antagonists that were supposed to be on their same level.

It's fine to have cartoony and idiotic villains when you're fighting against medieval grunts who don't know any better, it doesn't work nearly as well when you try to do the same thing to opponents that is supposed to be on the same playing field as you. It may not seem obvious to those without military experience or knowledge, but let's just say the level of "tactics" displayed here is... calling it idiotic would be too high of a praise. I can pull a PFC straight out of bootcamp and he'd come up with a better plan than what's shown here.

Thank you for actually reading and comprehending what I was saying.


@DemonneoPT:

What is also funny, is that the anime is portraying the Japanese leaders as dirty and corrupt, but no one bats an eye to that. I wonder why!

Mostly because for as much as they say they are corrupted they show them to be much more honorable by comparison to other politicians, basically having their cake and eating it too.

[Znail]

Originally Posted by kyp275

No, I think his point is that this show tends to trivialize every "<non-Japanese>" faction. Which, to be fair, is something the media in every country does to some extend.

The problem I think isn't so much that, but rather the clash between this and Gate's attempt at something resembling realism on the part of the military action up to this point. To be honest, this is also the part that was the most jarring for me as well in the manga. Not the pro-JP bias - but the cartoony/sheer idiocy of the antagonists that were supposed to be on their same level.

It's fine to have cartoony and idiotic villains when you're fighting against medieval grunts who don't know any better, it doesn't work nearly as well when you try to do the same thing to opponents that is supposed to be on the same playing field as you. It may not seem obvious to those without military experience or knowledge, but let's just say the level of "tactics" displayed here is... calling it idiotic would be too high of a praise. I can pull a PFC straight out of bootcamp and he'd come up with a better plan than what's shown here.

Why same level? This is taking place in Japan, it's natural that Japan has an advantage in several areas there.

Lets reverse this situation. Tomorrow CIA plans a secret meting some where in the US. What odds would you give for Japan to know about it and successfully launch an attack on that meeting (ignoring why they would do so)? Are you looking down on Japan if you think they would perhaps not have infiltrated every CIA operation or have agents with top notch equipment ready to do such an attack?

[kyp275]

Originally Posted by DemonneoPT

Yes, because African countries totally were the prime suspects to attack Japan..lol. Just read what this guy wrote:


If the main suspects were the US, Russia and China, is that so outrageous and racist for the Japanese to think the black soldiers came from the US? Or is that common for China or even the "blondie" Russians to have black people in their armies too? Once again, i really do not understand what's the problem. It's as if some of you are so butthurt to see the americans as the "bad guys", when in reality, the anime is just showing the US trying to gain access to information about the GATE. What is also funny, is that the anime is portraying the Japanese leaders as dirty and corrupt, but no one bats an eye to that. I wonder why!

Sigh, because security contractors/mercenaries etc. don't exist right? Frankly, I find the casual racism in these thread more disturbing than anything in the show itself, at least the sheer ignorance about how real world military functions is at least understandable.

[Magewolf]

Originally Posted by DemonneoPT

. What is also funny, is that the anime is portraying the Japanese leaders as dirty and corrupt, but no one bats an eye to that. I wonder why!

Well we are just told about the corruption from the Dirty Americans and then the noble prime minster falls on his sword to save the Japanese people from them. So I think it is being given the attention it deserves.

[aohige]

Originally Posted by MrTerrorist

Spoilers

Spoiler for added by mod; comparison to the manga

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Spoilers

Spoiler for comparison to the novels

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[Tranhieu]

Speaking of the lack of intel, one cannot forget Operation Ivory Coast

[DemonneoPT]

Originally Posted by kyp275

It's fine to have cartoony and idiotic villains when you're fighting against medieval grunts who don't know any better, it doesn't work nearly as well when you try to do the same thing to opponents that is supposed to be on the same playing field as you. It may not seem obvious to those without military experience or knowledge, but let's just say the level of "tactics" displayed here is... calling it idiotic would be too high of a praise. I can pull a PFC straight out of bootcamp and he'd come up with a better plan than what's shown here.
.

I'm curious. If you were the US leader how would you proceed in such situation?

Originally Posted by kyp275

Sigh, because security contractors/mercenaries etc. don't exist right? Frankly, I find the casual racism in these thread more disturbing than anything in the show itself, at least the sheer ignorance about how real world military functions is at least understandable.

They assumed it were americans and confirmed it when confronting the guy who blackmailed the Japanese minister. It was just a guess. That was what i understood from that scene. Plus, calling it "casual racism" to things like this is just people overreacting over nothing. We really live in an over sensitive society :/

[Kakurin]

Originally Posted by DemonneoPT

I'm curious. If you were the US leader how would you proceed in such situation?

Negotiate the transfer of those "guests" with the blackmail material as backing. Just arrived at the same point as of the end of episode 9 minus a few deaths. Not to mention that the operation itself was moronic in preparation and execution.

[Tri-ring]

Concerning the foreign special forces operatives that went into snatch the girls they probably went in mostly blind since they wouldn't have known the location days ahead to do any proper planning like surveillance, obtaining info concerning the lay of the land that can't be identified from sat photos, etc. thing that JGSDF would have taken for granted.
There was too much variables that would have worked against them. It also did not help for the special forces operatives not having night goggles which could have been bought at Akihabara. Not as good as military issued items but still would been better then nothing.

[LoweGear]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

...

I'm pretty sure black African countries have an even greater proportion of Blacks in their ranks. Unless you mean really African Americans, and then yes, the US has a quasi-monopoly of Anything American soldiers.

Considering the modern geopolitical situation in the world today and the force projection capabilities of the nations in Africa, barring the Gate or not, do you really expect any African nation to be even capable of sending special forces into a deep-infiltration mission into the heart of Japan? To even consider such would be nonsense that'll get any self-respecting analyst thrown out of the room

It may have been something of an oversight of me to say that America has the largest proportion of black troops in any military, but that's just missing the point at this stage: the point is that among the militaries capable of sending trained special forces into Japan, the US is statistically the most likely country to have blacks among their roster.