[Manga] Chapter 520 Discussion

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

Not really. The problem is I never felt the urgency or direness that the Pain arc was supposed to represent. Everyone just ran around doing random things without any real depth or emotion. And then Pain levels the village and no one seems to care that much. Everything about it was rushed and sloppy.

That's just your persepctive. Frankly I don't agree with it at all. And plenty of other people felt entirely different aswell. "Everyone just ran around doing random things without any real depth or emotion. And then Pain levels the village and no one seems to care that much." makes it sound as if those two events happened instantaneously when what you just described was an arc that lasted 30 chapters. Plenty of people found the seemingly invincible village reduced to rubble by a one man army as a massive twist. Plenty of people saw Kakashi being killed by Pain as very emotional. Plenty people found Naruto's return very epic. Plenty of people found Hinata's sacrifice heartbreaking. Just because you didn't like it doesn't neccessarily mean it's the manga's fault and everyone else who felt differently had no good reason to. It just means you didn't like it.

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by Fran~

Theoretically yes, but in the real life... well... you see all those books/movies about vampires, harry potter, etc.

You just can't put aside one big factor: Audience's tastes.

That's why i said that all your analysis about Naruto are probably correct, but OTOH you must understand that the audience isn't interested in the background of the characters if they are having a good time reading it.

In that case, they are fucking morons. Of course, that's nothing new to me.

The more you analyze Naruto and Kishimoto's reasons, the more you get tired of it.

First smart thing you've said.

Originally Posted by Haak

"Everyone just ran around doing random things without any real depth or emotion. And then Pain levels the village and no one seems to care that much." makes it sound as if those two events happened instantaneously when what you just described was an arc that lasted 30 chapters.

2/3 of those chapters were dedicated to Naruto vs. Pain.

The other 10 chapters were completely random and absolutely nothing was accomplished.

That's just your persepctive. Frankly I don't agree with it at all. And plenty of other people felt entirely different aswell.

Just because you didn't like it doesn't neccessarily mean it's the manga's fault and everyone else who felt differently had no good reason to. It just means you didn't like it.

Word of the wise: "Well, that's your opinion!" is a terrible fucking argument, since it pretty much indicates that you've given up.

[Fran~]

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

In that case, they are fucking morons. Of course, that's nothing new to me.

Isn't moronic... you can't expect the same response in such a big group of people.

It's like those beer or wine experts who expend lots of energy (and words that even a dictionary doesn't know) analyzing such drinks, they make magazines, websites, tv shows... but in the end, most people just open the bottle, drink it and is fine with it because they were thirsty.

First smart thing you've said.

Thanks, i really appreciate it...

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

In that case, they are fucking morons. Of course, that's nothing new to me.

they are kids, not much of a difference really.

You have to understand the target audience is someone who is half your age. Little kids to early teens, not people in their 20s or 30s. if someone form our age group buy their stuff great, but if they don't that is fine too as long as their target age group keep buying.

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by Fran~

Isn't moronic... you can't expect the same response in such a big group of people.

It's like those beer or wine experts who expend lots of energy (and words that even a dictionary doesn't know) analyzing such drinks, they make magazines, websites, tv shows... but in the end, most people just open the bottle, drink it and is fine with it because they were thirsty.

First off, why are you comparing manga to beer?

Second, I think I know what logic you're going for here, but the only way I'll accept it is if people acknowledge that Naruto is a lousy series and the only reaon they read/watch it is for the cheese value of it being so lousy. That's pretty much why I read it.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by Ulquiorra

Was Danzou evil? His back-story did not paint him as evil. An extremist sure, but he could have been seen as a misguided patriot. Sort of Kishimoto's take on nationalism.

Were Hitler or Stalin just "misguided" ? I don't think so. In my opinion those who use entire nations/countries for their own purpose are far worse than terrorists. If Nagato/Pain was a terrorist then Danzou was much worse than him.
For example Hitler had his hitlerjugend that had children brainwashed and used for war purposes. Danzou's root was very similar, he brainwashed children like Sai and used them as mere tools in his plans to become hokage. Now that i mentioned this similarity between Danzou and Hitler i remember that someone here on the forums called Sasuke's MS eye the jew eye, Danzou wanted to exterminate the Uchiha the same way Hitler wanted to exterminate the jews

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

2/3 of those chapters were dedicated to Naruto vs. Pain.

Which, incidently happened between "Everyone just ran around doing random things without any real depth or emotion." and "then Pain levels the village and no one seems to care that much."

Contrary to what you're saying...

The other 10 chapters were completely random and absolutely nothing was accomplished.

I'll just repeat what I said before.

Plenty of people found the seemingly invincible village reduced to rubble by a one man army as a massive twist. Plenty of people saw Kakashi being killed by Pain as very emotional. Plenty people found Naruto's return very epic (which wouldn't have been epic had we not been given 10 whole chapters on just how dire the situation was).

I find it extremely hard to believe a villian invading a village and making everything chaotic and the village fighting back is something "completely random and absolutely nothing was accomplished".

Plenty happened. You just didn't care. Don't blame it on the story. Blame it on yourself.

Word of the wise: "Well, that's your opinion!" is a terrible fucking argument, since it pretty much indicates that you've given up.

Despite the fact that I explained why it's just an opinion and thus not an objective argument that needs a counter argument?

No it doesn't. It indicates that all you gave was an opinion with no actual reason behind it. All you've done is say "This has terrible pacing. That was completely irrelevant". You haven't actually given any reason why, and the reasons you do give are completely baffling because you say it as if it's objective fact and not just your perspective (which it blatantly is).

[Lightningtiger13]

First off I think we all need to take a step back and breath for a minute.

Yes this is a manga and therefore does require some criticism as a work of art and a written story. But there are always people who are gonna think that its perfect witch nothing is, and there are always gonna be people that think it is a horrible piece of trash; while true fans have the ability to see something they like and ignore some of the bad things just for that one reason.

So really if you need to bash on Kishi and his work of art then your just not a true fan if a fan at all and why don't you just stop posting here because nothing you say will effect the true fans because we all know kishi's weakness' and we do not want any one pointing them out. You may call it ignorance but we just do not care. Why don't you just spend your time posting on a thread of an anime or manga you enjoy and stop ruining the fun for everyone else.

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by Haak

Which, incidently happened between "Everyone just ran around doing random things without any real depth or emotion." and "then Pain levels the village and no one seems to care that much."

Contrary to what you're saying...

I have no idea what you're talking about here. The Naruto/Pain fight happened between the stuff with the side characters? What?

I'm talking about the stuff that happened before Naruto arrived.

I'll just repeat what I said before.

Plenty of people found the seemingly invincible village reduced to rubble by a one man army as a massive twist.

When did the story ever give the impression that Konohagakure was seemingly invincible?

Plenty of people saw Kakashi being killed by Pain as very emotional.

He was never officially dead. He was pseudo-dead. And the way it happened was so rushed and un-foreshadowed that I would be surprised if anyone thought he was going to die permanently.

And what was up with him having a campfire with his dad? That went nowhere and was totally pointless.

Plenty people found Naruto's return very epic (which wouldn't have been epic had we not been given 10 whole chapters on just how dire the situation was).

The presentation was nice. But again, where is the internalization? Where is the emotion? Naruto shows up and is just sort of whatev about it. And what's happened before now? A bunch of fodder deaths? Kakashi? Shizune? The leveling of the village, which everyone survives anyway?

I find it extremely hard to believe a villian invading a village and making everything chaotic and the village fighting back is something "completely random and absolutely nothing was accomplished".

Plenty happened. You just didn't care. Don't blame it on the story. Blame it on yourself.

Oh, by all means, tell me what was accomplished. All I saw were a bunch of fodder deaths and the deaths of two major characters that were reversed at the end of the arc anyway. As well as the leveling of the village, which was effectively fixed in one chapter afterwards. Oh, and Konohamaru can use the Rasengan and took out a Pain for all the sense that made.

Thing is, some of these things may have had something of an emotional reaction from me (particularly Shizune's death) but the end of the arc ruined. This is actually a common trend of Kishi's writing is that he actually makes some pretty good setups, but then he completely fumbles it because he can't write the story or characters worth a damn.

It's sad, actually, because this was a perfect opportunity for the supporting cast to really show their stuff and have some one-on-one fights with the different Pain bodies.

Despite the fact that I explained why it's just an opinion and thus not an objective argument that needs a counter argument?

No it doesn't. It indicates that all you gave was an opinion with no actual reason behind it. All you've done is say "This has terrible pacing. That was completely irrelevant". You haven't actually given any reason why, and the reasons you do give are completely baffling because you say it as if it's objective fact and not just your perspective (which it blatantly is).

Gross underutilization of characters and irrelevant inconsequential scenes are reasons for why the Pain arc sucked (among other reasons), and I've been giving examples from the story. What more do you want?

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

Were Hitler or Stalin just "misguided" ? I don't think so. In my opinion those who use entire nations/countries for their own purpose are far worse than terrorists. If Nagato/Pain was a terrorist then Danzou was much worse than him.

Going for some extreme examples there, aren't you? Danzou was no Hitler or Stalin (or Mao, etc). At best he was a Cheney or Rumsfeld . Danzou is an uber patriot that was willing to sacrifice the soul of his village in order to potentially protect it from harm. It's not a good thing, but he is not Hitler-level by any means.

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

It's sad, actually, because this was a perfect opportunity for the supporting cast to really show their stuff and have some one-on-one fights with the different Pain bodies.

Except that is not what Kishimoto was going for at all. The attack wasn't about fights or battles; it was all surprise then shock and awe before Naruto could step in and finally show some maturity.

And honestly, Kishimoto hasn't given his C-list characters the time of day in 400+ chapters, so I am unclear why anyone still harks on this issue. It is clearly not something Kishimoto or his editors are interested in, so it is a non-issue to the story, and consequently an unimportant complaint.

That being said, move on. I've already said this is off topic (and now cyclical), and I will not say it again. Move on. (This goes for all.)

[james0246]

No spoilers yet, but the new thread has been created anyway .

[neshru]

Originally Posted by Haak

That's just your persepctive. Frankly I don't agree with it at all. And plenty of other people felt entirely different aswell. "Everyone just ran around doing random things without any real depth or emotion. And then Pain levels the village and no one seems to care that much." makes it sound as if those two events happened instantaneously when what you just described was an arc that lasted 30 chapters. Plenty of people found the seemingly invincible village reduced to rubble by a one man army as a massive twist. Plenty of people saw Kakashi being killed by Pain as very emotional. Plenty people found Naruto's return very epic. Plenty of people found Hinata's sacrifice heartbreaking. Just because you didn't like it doesn't neccessarily mean it's the manga's fault and everyone else who felt differently had no good reason to. It just means you didn't like it.

Agreed.
And I don't get why that guy spends so much time arguing over this series when he basically hates everything about it. If I thought a series was so bad, I would stop reading it and go discuss about something I like.

[LadyKikyo91]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

Were Hitler or Stalin just "misguided" ? I don't think so. In my opinion those who use entire nations/countries for their own purpose are far worse than terrorists. If Nagato/Pain was a terrorist then Danzou was much worse than him.
For example Hitler had his hitlerjugend that had children brainwashed and used for war purposes. Danzou's root was very similar, he brainwashed children like Sai and used them as mere tools in his plans to become hokage. Now that i mentioned this similarity between Danzou and Hitler i remember that someone here on the forums called Sasuke's MS eye the jew eye, Danzou wanted to exterminate the Uchiha the same way Hitler wanted to exterminate the jews

Comparing Hitler to Danzou is a little extreme no matter how you slice it. Hitler was an extremist who hated Jews and believed that they were responsible for all of the evils in the world. Sentenced millions of people to death in camps filled with gas. Racist to the max. Extreme hatred not even known to a human level of emotion. Complete lack of humanity in the least bit and a tryant who believed in his divine right to rule. Sent Germany to a war which costed them dearly and when Germany was over taken, he took his own life in a complete act of cowardice because he didn't want to face the music. Danzou was only exterminated the Uchiha when they came to pose a threat. He was only looking out for his country. Hitler on the other hand used war and his country to spread his extreme hatred of Jewish people and to exterminate them. Also Hitler believed his was destined to rule the entire world. He and Danzou are nothing alike in my eyes.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by james0246

Going for some extreme examples there, aren't you? Danzou was no Hitler or Stalin (or Mao, etc). At best he was a Cheney or Rumsfeld . Danzou is an uber patriot that was willing to sacrifice the soul of his village in order to potentially protect it from harm. It's not a good thing, but he is not Hitler-level by any means.

I used as an example these two because they should be well known to most people, but i could have used many lesser people. Of course Danzou failed to become hokage, but we have clearly seen what were his goals. He wanted to unite the ninja world under his own leadership, and he wanted to do that by power, which means a ninja world war where he wants to win. Hitler did just that, he started a huge war to dominate the world. Hitler's big luck was that his country was in chaos because of losing the 1st world war and the big economic crisis. Danzou's big chance was the chaos in Konoha after Pain's destruction of the village and the hokage being in a coma. Sure this is a common pattern for many dictators but because of my lack of historical knowledge i used a well known example.