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Old 2012-12-27, 17:12   Link #31521
Valkama
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
You make it sound like the stories contained any of the events of what happened on Prime. That's a fairly baseless assumption, aside from Eva and Battler living.
Not the stories themselves, more of the meta scenes being prime. Your right it is baseless but the Meta scenes were never really explained well at all to begin with and it's impossible to solve most of the story anyways without making a few assumptions here and there. The assumption though I'm mostly making is that when Ryukishi left clues for someone to solve prime if they wanted to. Although this is a bit based on Ryukishi asking the readers in our confession to find the hidden truth on their own.
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Old 2012-12-27, 17:25   Link #31522
Renall
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
You make it sound like the stories contained any of the events of what happened on Prime. That's a fairly baseless assumption, aside from Eva and Battler living.
Arguably, even that is a baseless assumption. We see worlds that occur after 1986, but maybe they're all also fiction.

Maybe there's just a guy named Tohya who isn't sure if he's a guy named Battler, or if there was a guy named Battler. Maybe there's not a guy named Tohya. I mean, there wasn't, but I mean maybe there wasn't... in the story. Except there was in the story, so... you know what, screw it, this is getting too weird.

At the very least, "Prime" is nothing more than a construct we readers theorized might exist. I have no idea if it must exist. Hell, I have no idea if Ryukishi even thought about this issue. Although if he had, Chiru might've been more interesting.
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Old 2012-12-27, 18:23   Link #31523
jjblue1
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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
I think that is one of the points that goes along with Umineko and is at least what I can draw from it as a creative resource. In terms of riddles you have to know the level of knowledge your opponent possesses in order to create a fair challenge, but reality does not provide fair challenges. That is why I also think that Umineko has a lot more to say about fictionality and literary fairness than commenting on the moral question of these.

In that sense it is largely different from 'An Offering to Nothingness', more on that later though. Ange even says that no matter how many countering truths people create in the end, she will create her own Golden Truth and keep her family with her, she does not condemn the witches in the end, she merely says that she will no longer commit to being their plaything. In the end, she creates as much a 'fantasy' or a fictionalized account of real events as the witches do, only her version is her's and her's alone.

Coming back to fairness. Fiction can be fair, that is correct, but reality will not care for playing fair, providing you with clues and hints. But where "AOtN" flat out denied mystery fiction as a form of entertainment, Umineko goes for the fictionality of everything by claiming that reality is always just a construction from the imperfect knowledge we have of the completeness of existence around us. That is why I enjoyed Chiru just as much as the first four arcs, because it played with that and even took it a step further.
I'll be fine if your reasonement were to apply solely to Ange. Prime is the real world to her but there's no red truth in it and therefore she can doubt of whatever truth she's presented.

Actually, I wouldn't have minded if Umineko had been a story about how truth can't be reached in the real world if it hadn't tried to involve me in a game about finding it and then had refrained from giving me clues. Ironically Ange has more clues than we has at least about Prime as she had read Eva's truth and has likely the official info about the crime and possibly some extra info she might have discovered.

But what seems unfair to me more than not being told what happened in Prime is the gameboard. There are things you can't simply figure out.

Sure, once I know the truth I can build my golden truths over whatever theory I like but that's not really a game between me and Ryukishi as I can't check his answer and he can't check mine unless I don't post them in a place he'll end up seeing (and I don't really think he checks all the Japanese blogs/web/journal/whatever about Umineko).

In short it stops being a game between the two of us and becomes a solitaire only, at this point, I can twist rules so that my answer will work.
Like writing a fanfic about a series that had been left unfinished.

Now, I wrote MANY fics about a certain series that had been left unfinished and it can be funny but when I started Umineko I was under the belief it was a complete work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
In classic mystery fiction the angle of the legend-motive was used by the culprit to spread suspicion into every possible corner and push attention away from him or herself by using a well-known supernatural narrative. In Umineko it rather seems to be that one person (guilty or not) tried to gather all guilt into him/herself to give life to a supernatural tale that did not exist prior to this.
Undoubtely, as far as I'm involved, Umineko has some very interesting points. There are some things of Umineko I totally love and... there are some other that I don't like and that I find bordering on poor writing.

I guess it has to be expected as Ryukishi isn't one of the world's best writers so he can make mistakes so maybe it's unfair to expect a perfect work from him.

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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
In that way I understand why it is often compared to 'AOtN'. You can read this plot synopsis (part of it was taken from a Japanese blog because I didn't remember all specifics) if you want.
Spoiler for An Offering to Nothingness:
Thank you a lot for the summary, it was definitely an interesting read and now I really wish this were to be translated in my language...

And yes, it definitely has some common elements with Umineko that would make it an even more interesting reading.
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Old 2012-12-28, 23:09   Link #31524
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Originally Posted by RandomAvatarFan View Post
Again, see where Kanon gets staked according to the TIPS? In fact let's look at all the arcs 1-4...He's almost always stabbed in the chest... the heart! Yasu is gouging out his own heart to search for the truth!
Another interesting thing is that in EP4 everyone is killed by a wound in the head, with the exception of Kanon (and Maria).

On my last reading of Alliance's murder-the-five-escapers scene, it really stood out to me that Kanon alone was shot in the chest... and of course that his was the only corpse that wasn't discovered.

Quote:
Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
In that way I understand why it is often compared to 'AOtN'. You can read this plot synopsis (part of it was taken from a Japanese blog because I didn't remember all specifics) if you want.
Is there a version of AOtN available in computer text? "理解ちゃん"を使えるなら俺はたぶん読めるけど… 使えないなら読めるのはちょっと…
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Old 2012-12-29, 02:05   Link #31525
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Yo guys! I'm back from the dead!

I see that not much has happened since I was away and seemingly not much has been concluded. You guys are still talking about some of the old mysteries that has plagued us during Umineko's EP releases, and I'm just loving it right now.

Of course, I didn't leave without some theories in thought. I'm still under the notion that the nature of the entire game, in its entirety, is that of a Logic Debate. I figured that the Witch Hunters, Ikuko, Tohya, Ange, and various others were discussing the matter in 1986, thus making up the "Meta" scenes that we see. The actual stories are of course the original Letters and the Forgeries of which we are trying to seek the answer.

Knowing this much, I had to figure out the nature of Red, Blue, and Gold Truths. Red Truths seem to be same in nature as postulates or assumptions that theories are based on. Blue Truths are basically arguments in nature. Gold Truths, however, are something puzzling; sadly, I couldn't figure out anything for them beyond them being opinions of some sort.

With all that out of the way, I could focus on the actual mysteries (which is hard to do since every other scene was Meta or Fantasy).

Basically, I had to get rid of all notions of Colored Truths and just stick to the text much like I would any other mystery. I understand this is a very unorthodox and possibly foolish thing to do but I was actually able to figure alot off of doing so.

What I was able to figure out was that the family did learn of Kinzo's death during the conference. My initial evidence would be the Adults' growing interest in the subject in each episode. There's also considering that the Siblings would keep track over Kinzo's finances (which I think Kyrie had confessed in doing) in order to stay on top of their inheritance and thus have figured out that Krauss was doing something with it.

I also theorize that they knew of Beatrice's existence as well but, first, the family would have to solve the epitaph. After doing so, Beatrice's (or Yasu's) would be introduced to the family not only as Kinzo's illegitimate child but also the new head of the family. The moments where she meets members of the family in the Letters and Forgeries might be a reflection of this. Again, nothing concrete and, as of the moment of formulating this theory, I'm disregarding anything can give it substance.

And, of course, Yasu isn't the killer (in Prime). I believe Battler's words to her at the end of EP8 is confirmation of that.

I'm, of recently, converting to the George Prime Culprit Theory. I must make the distinction that I don't believe he is the culprit of the murders in the Forgeries and Letters, as posited by George Culprit Theory. Rather, he's the culprit in Prime by flipping the switch and detonating the bombs. He does fit the bill since Yasu's confessions of being Shannon and Kanon as well as the head of the family would possibly make him snap.

I figured this from postulating that the culprit must not care for the gold neither his own family nor the servants. Under these conditions, no one would fit the bill. However, assuming that Yasu came out with the truth, the two people who would be most affected by it would George and Jessica. George seems to be the most likely to go crazy from it due to his dedication towards their relationship. I don't mean to pull a Kinzo pun here, but I wouldn't put it past George to go crazy due to heartbreak.

Now, if someone wouldn't mind putting up anything that would go against or for this. I did do this disregarding Red Truths, so I'm not sure whether any of this is even remotely close to right.
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Old 2012-12-29, 04:57   Link #31526
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Well, it's possible, but so's anything else. Such is the nature of a cat box.

Quote:
Gold Truths, however, are something puzzling; sadly, I couldn't figure out anything for them beyond them being opinions of some sort.
That's easy; gold truths are a "consensus" as Ange says in EP8 - something accepted by the majority regardless of whether it's actually true or not. Even though there's not anything to actually prove it, one still has to use it as a foundation for reasoning, because most people won't accept your reasoning if it goes against the established consensus. For example, you could say that things such as the Shkanontrice theory or the existence of a Rokkenjima-Prime is a golden truth for most of the Umineko fanbase. It's not been confirmed in red, but we probably wouldn't be able to take a theory seriously if it denied one of these premises, so they are a foundation upon which reasoning is built even though they haven't been objectively established.
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Old 2012-12-29, 23:14   Link #31527
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Originally Posted by Drifloon View Post
Well, it's possible, but so's anything else. Such is the nature of a cat box.



That's easy; gold truths are a "consensus" as Ange says in EP8 - something accepted by the majority regardless of whether it's actually true or not. Even though there's not anything to actually prove it, one still has to use it as a foundation for reasoning, because most people won't accept your reasoning if it goes against the established consensus. For example, you could say that things such as the Shkanontrice theory or the existence of a Rokkenjima-Prime is a golden truth for most of the Umineko fanbase. It's not been confirmed in red, but we probably wouldn't be able to take a theory seriously if it denied one of these premises, so they are a foundation upon which reasoning is built even though they haven't been objectively established.
I wouldn't say the golden truth is consensus.
Didn't Ange use it to affirm Battler was still alive? I doubt the consensus was he was, expecially since Bern had just declared him dead in red.

Beato the elder used gold also to say that what MoeBeato did was magic and we know Erika would have declared it a trick (actually she had explained in that same episode how that trick worked)

Gold seems more personal belief, which can match with the red truth or not, which can be shaked by an opposing red truth or stay firm.

Interesting enough I like to link blue and gold truth to Bern and Lambda.
To turn true the blue truth you might have to go through tons of possibilities, which is what Bern does when she search for words for her miracle.
Interesting enough this reminds me of when Battler compared the blue truth to a machine gun and began tossing them one after the other.
For the gold truth to be true for the person that uses it, you need determination, a certain will, which is what Lambda rewards. And, if your determination is strong enough, your gold truth for you is surely true even if the red truth says the contrary.

At least that's my theory.
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Old 2012-12-30, 06:59   Link #31528
Cao Ni Ma
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It gets worse when you try to fit Will's usage of it during his denouement. Its either a straight lie, or people were convincing themselves, despite evidence against it, of a particular truth.

I dont think its a straight up lie, if it was then he'd be parroting the illusion line. If people seem to be convincing themselves under duress it seems to defeat the intent of it being good and golden. But who knows whats good anymore? Hiding the culprit seems to be morally a good thing in this story.
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Old 2012-12-30, 15:13   Link #31529
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I've more or less said this before, but I think gold truth is faith.
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Old 2012-12-30, 18:23   Link #31530
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I don't think it's a consensus or faith, in that the people creating it don't have to believe it. We know for a fact that the accomplices in Our Confession don't believe it because they have to be coerced into participating in it. Hell, Beatrice doesn't seem to believe it. The importance of the golden truth is more who it's being presented to than who is creating it. I presume this is part of the reason it's described as sometimes stronger, sometimes weaker.

To a person who is inclined to prefer to believe the golden truth or who doesn't know better, it is superior. To a person who won't accept it or who has definitive evidence or knowledge to the contrary, it is inferior. Likewise in a situation where everyone believes it, having all the truth in the world to counter it won't have any effect. In encompasses lying, faith, and consensus, but isn't any one of those things unto itself.

And I think it's clearly implied by the Chick/Elder Beatrice dialogue that they both know that Erika's explanation of the trick is correct, but because they are the only two people who saw it happen, they are free to agree that it was magic and nobody can say otherwise (they can explain a trick that works very much like it, but they can't prove that trick was actually employed because they didn't see it done).
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Old 2012-12-30, 18:25   Link #31531
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I feel like it's something that's thought to be true. Really the Gold truth is needlessly ambiguous. Maybe if it was used more than 2 times it would actually matter but it really doesn't matter what it means.
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Old 2012-12-30, 19:53   Link #31532
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No one actually died on Rokkenjima in 1986! Everything is a game being played by the cousins.

Valkama pointed it out:
Quote:
Looking at the Episode 1 tea party the cousins are talking about, what a shame looks like it's a fantasy story when I thought it would be a mystery. So if we use some reasoning based on what we already know we could conclude that this the cousins reacting to the story that was just told. After that Battler tries to prove it was a mystery and tries to solve Yasu's mystery. Using this infomation it wouldn't be hard to reason out that the 2nd games meta scenes are just Yasu and Battler having a debate over Yasu's mystery.
That tea party was a framing device, and you see a glimpse of Prime.

Here's how it happened:

Yasu was so elated over the fact that Battler would be arriving to the conference that year. She wanted to be sure that he would remember her promise. She wanted to make him remember the relationship they had. So she staged a murder mystery game.

Not a game like "let's all bribe everyone to pretend that they are dead, but then I'll actually kill them if he doesn't get the answer right," but rather: "Battler, let's sit down. I have a riddle I want to read to you."

She wrote up these three "letters" and framed them as messages from a different kakera.
Because Battler was denying Beatrice, Yasu was getting upset... the end of that first tea party was Yasu reminding Battler that she does have the "power"to kill everyone... even if it is only on paper.

However, Yasu misplaced Land and so it was "lost." Battler realized that he did in fact, forgot Yasu's promise. He could only remember bits and pieces from six years ago. However, he was able to arrive at the truth in Yasu's stories, so he took his turn. This time, instead of being message bottles from the event, he framed his as being written from himself: the amnesiac, as a joke to the fact that he had forgotten his promise to Yasu.

So now it's Battler's turn. Ange was actually there, and he felt bad because while all the other cousins were kind of enjoying hearing about the fantastic ways and their heroic efforts to save the ones they loved, Ange was left out. Battler, being the loving brother he was, wanted her to participate.

I'm actually a little confused as to why Battler gave her such a strange role. Bern telling Ange that since she was not there, she could not be placed on the gameboard in EP4, but then in EP8, Battler was able to place on her on the gameboard.

I believe that this was at first Battler and the rest trying to get Ange happy by having her "participate" but at the same time have her out of their way. I'm guilty of doing very similar stuff with my little sister: I used to give her a remote control that wasn't hooked up and told her that she was playing. She ate that up.

Once Battler's turn came up though, it wasn't really his game against Yasu anymore, but rather the others. Have you noticed that Bern and Lambda take bigger roles in Tohya's games versus Yasu's? Perhaps they're the other players who were there that night...

Erika was a representation of the fact that the other players hadn't completely understood the rules, or even the point Yasu was trying to make to Battler. Battler was enjoying his time with Yasu, but wasn't enjoying the company of the others. That is how the main character of his favorite novel became the villain: she was a representation of people from outside who weren't understanding them. Geez, they're a couple now. Give them some privacy!

However, George and Jessica weren't happy with having their own mothers appearing to be as culprits. They kept trying to twist everything around and turn it into Kyrie and Rudolf culprit theory.

Ange has an overactive imagination as a child. She's hearing all of this going on, reading through the "forgeries" and imagining that these really are things that are going to happen that night. What then will happen to her in the future? Surely she will have to live with her grandparents with the Sumaderas. But if Eva survived, surely she would live with her instead. But look, she's Beatrice, right? She's bad. And all her grandparents talk about is money anyway, so if there's all this gold that Eva is going to give to her! But now they're talking that her own parents are bad!

Ange is really scared. She can't tell the difference between the game and reality. And so Battler tries writing up a game that's neither happy nor painful. But this proves difficult because he's still technically playing with Yasu, and now George and Jessica keep trying to create their own games, and all Battler and Yasu want is to be alone together. They completely destroyed the meaning of Yasu's Beatrice in their forgeries, and that is why there is this theme in EP8 about letting the catbox remain closed. Battler tries teaching Ange a lesson about "truth is what you make it or something" and she can either learn to accept it and let the box remain close (and return home from the conference knowing that the possibility could exist that her parents aren't the culprit) or she could continue on living in fear for the next day wondering if she was actually going to die like in the forgeries.

And that is what Umineko is. Renall is right when he says that one can't even tell if Tohya and Ange of 1998 are Prime are not, and that we don't even know if Battler and EVa really survived. This basically states that Battler and Eva did survive, but only because there was nothing dangerous or lethal to kill them. Nothing happened, except all the cousins had gathered and they all were able to laugh together.
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Old 2012-12-30, 20:07   Link #31533
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Valkama View Post
I feel like it's something that's thought to be true. Really the Gold truth is needlessly ambiguous. Maybe if it was used more than 2 times it would actually matter but it really doesn't matter what it means.
Some things are just always going to remain a mystery.
Spoiler for Gold Truth Explained! (Not Really!):
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This story is a redacted confession.

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Old 2012-12-30, 22:43   Link #31534
GabrieliosP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Some things are just always going to remain a mystery.
Spoiler for Gold Truth Explained! (Not Really!):
10/10. Image saved on my PC.

I think your Touya's explanation can pretty much be R07's reasons for creating the Golden Truth.
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Old 2012-12-31, 14:58   Link #31535
jjblue1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Some things are just always going to remain a mystery.
Spoiler for Gold Truth Explained! (Not Really!):
This is awesome!

However there's the chance Erika had some knowledge of the golden truth, after all she knew about the detective authority and the logic error, prior to Battler learning about them. She also knew she could apply Knox to the tale so it doesn't really come as a surprise she knew about golden truth. Likely she would have known of purple truth and whatever colour you can come up truth as well.

This doesn't make any better the fact that the golden truth is used like that, although there's to say similar not foreshadowed, surprise, hyperpowerful devices are used all the time in anime so maybe Ryukishi didn't think anything of it (I've always found it a bad move in whatever show it was though but it's so recurring when it happens I'm not surprised).

And... ehm... someone can refresh my mind on when Will used the golden truth? I can't remember...
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Old 2012-12-31, 15:01   Link #31536
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I think purple truth was created solely for Bern's game in EP8 and didn't exist beforehand. Heck, red truth was created on the spot by Beato in EP2.
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Old 2012-12-31, 16:21   Link #31537
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Quote:
And... ehm... someone can refresh my mind on when Will used the golden truth? I can't remember...
He didn't use it, but used its EXISTENCE as a metaphor to explain mysteries, like calling the locked chapel in EP2 a "golden truth."

Quote:
I think purple truth was created solely for Bern's game in EP8 and didn't exist beforehand. Heck, red truth was created on the spot by Beato in EP2.
Actually, the Meta-Narrative claims that Beatrice didn't invent it, but is simply a master of using it. Considering that the Red Truth is based on how some bibles print the words of Christ, and how Beatrice calls him the strongest sorcerer there ever was, there's probably truth to that.
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Old 2012-12-31, 17:32   Link #31538
Renall
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Actually, the Meta-Narrative claims that Beatrice didn't invent it, but is simply a master of using it. Considering that the Red Truth is based on how some bibles print the words of Christ, and how Beatrice calls him the strongest sorcerer there ever was, there's probably truth to that.
Well he was certainly a lot better at coming back to life than her. Heyooooooooooo!
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I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

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Battler Solves The Logic Error
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Old 2013-01-01, 05:44   Link #31539
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Actually, due to timeloops, Beatrice died on December 5th in the evening after the 2nd Twilight, and then came back to life before the first Twilight on another Gameboard.

Beatrice came back to life BEFORE SHE DIED in linear time. Suck on that!
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Old 2013-01-01, 14:57   Link #31540
Wanderer
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
The importance of the golden truth is more who it's being presented to than who is creating it.
I called it "faith" to imply that the person "creating" it isn't the lier, but the believer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
And I think it's clearly implied by the Chick/Elder Beatrice dialogue that they both know that Erika's explanation of the trick is correct, but because they are the only two people who saw it happen, they are free to agree that it was magic and nobody can say otherwise (they can explain a trick that works very much like it, but they can't prove that trick was actually employed because they didn't see it done).
I think you're right. I think that although chick Beato knows that it was a simple trick, she still chooses to believe it's magic. When I coin it as "faith", I am encompassing this concept as well.
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