Why do so many people want to come and live in America?

[Nosauz]

Originally Posted by Jinto

Their social construct is clearly an autocracy of a single party consisting of elites. Considering lobbying powers in the capitalist world (autocracy of the powerful lobbies/politicians), the driving traits are pretty much the same (egoism, craving for power, elitism). These traits are fundamentally incompatible with communism. Communism/socialism is something that can be seen for example in insect colonies, but that requires a trait/mind-set that the average human does not have yet.

Well if you think of local governments in china they are actually quite "socialist" as in there is a lot of self sacrifice in the name of common coutesy but I think that's more to historical social constructs than the impact of the cultural revolution. Still China's economic system is Capitalism, with a little protectionism thrown in there, ie: Chinese government's denial of merger between china's biggest soda company with Coca Cola.

[Kudryavka]

Originally Posted by Jinto

I just figured out one thing as a non-american. You people use the words communism and socialism more often in a wrong context than anywhere else in the world (except maybe for countries like China, where it is clearly used in the wrong context as a propaganda means). If people for example believe that China is a communist system, I just think... yeah that (anti)communism propaganda must have had a serious impact on your common sense.
America doesn't like communism, but most part of it clearly has not a clue about what communism actually is, and which systems in the world are by a matter of fact (reality) clearly not communist. It appears that everything "un-american" can be labeled socialist/communist these days.
Another thing is this "we are the good guys" and "we are the victim" meme. I sometimes wonder if people actually realize how biased they are.
Nobody is without bias, but these points stand out very clearly in the average US citizens mind in my oppinion.

When I said communism, I meant the abolishment of social classes, a system in which everyone shares near everything, a world much more "fair" than America is. I dunno, my definition might be a bit too Marxist...
And yes, many Americans "hate" communism and have absolutely no idea what it means; thank all that anti-Soviet-Union-and-everything-about-it propaganda from WWII and the Cold War. The disgusting pictures and newspapers are gone, but the idea still remains. If real communism had turned out exactly the way Marx said it would, with his "super abundance of goods that everyone's willing to share equally," I'd actually prefer to live in communism.

Originally Posted by Nosauz

Communism is a word reserved for the detractors of America, it's a word that has powereful meaning to those because the Great Leader of the Free World, Ronald Reagan single handedly defeated the communists with his Reagan Smash. Everytime people (americans) claim that China is a communist regime, maybe in their social construct yes they have socialist tendencies but as a economic system they are MUCH close to laisse fairez ecomonics then America ever will be.

Reagan PAWNCH!
If America followed a laissez-faire economy, I don't see how it wouldn't suffer, considering that America is much different from China.

[Kusa-San]

Just to precise something because you will certainly think than my post is a bit violent. I have nothing against a good part of american people, it's mostly against the amercian system.

Originally Posted by yoropa

While many Americans criticized France for not participating in Iraq, I was one of the view praising such a decision, and should France end its push on banning religious headgear in public and adopt something more of the British system, which developed a specific police hardhat turban for the Sikh members of their police force, and work together on integrating these immigrants into their own culture without trying to force them out as being anti-French, then I would be more than happy with your country.

I don't agree at all with that. When you'r in a country, you need to adapt yourself to this country. It's not the country to adpat to the people. If you want to see police with hardhat turban go to an arabian country...or in England And I'm not racist at all. It's just, I think, something normal. If I was in an arabian country then, I would adapt myself to this country and its custom.

I'm not calling for an end to diplomatic and trade relations with France, I'm just calling for improved human rights as I have been doing with every country including the United States of America. My respect for human rights and free speech is one of the main reasons I've stayed in America and have not returned to my family overseas.

Uh tht's nothing to do with human right. The truth is that, if the France want to forbid the burqa, it's for the human right because the burqa is something which is bad for women right. Free speech != of saying everything.

The fact that the American Congress has representatives of a plethora of races and religions (including Buddhism and Islam), regardless of war times, is something I feel is highly positive about the country and speaks well about us.

America is a country which use the integration positive system. For me, it's not something that works and when I see how it is in America, I think I'lm right. Futhermore, I even think, than immigrate people is more integrate in France than in America.

Originally Posted by Justintrife

We don't like socialism or communism because they don't work. And they punish those who produce and work, and reward those who don't.

You don't like socialism and communism bceause you don't even know what's socialism and communism. I mean, for many american commnism=nazism

And I hate to break it to people, but life is unfair. America was never about 'fairness'. It was about equal opportunity. What you do with that opportunity is up to you. But you are not guaranteed the same results as anyone else.

Equal opportunity ? I think not. Go to say that to all the american people who lose their house because of your absolutely great fair system

Originally Posted by Nosauz

Communism is a word reserved for the detractors of America, it's a word that has powereful meaning to those because the Great Leader of the Corrupt World, Ronald Reagan single handedly defeated the communists with his Reagan Smash.

Fixed for the truth. Reagan is just the man that makes capitalism what is it now : the most unfair and corrupt system of the world.

Originally Posted by Komari

And yes, many Americans "hate" communism and have absolutely no idea what it means

If only it was only that. There are many american who don't even know the truth about how their country was colonized because history book at school don't say the truth They think than the mocal people were the bad guy and the colon the good guy...And it's not John Wayne who will say the contrary >_>


Here is the truth about the USA :

Between 2000 and 2007 the annual median income for american is passed to 49000$ to 39000$. Fuhtermore, it's the poor who grow even poorer. The income for afro-american family is four time less than for white familiy. In 1970, there were 23millions of poor, in 2007 37millions of poor. There is only one white man out of 12 that is poor against 3 black man out of 4. There is almost 40% of the black chlidren who are poor.

Source : www.census.gov/


In USA, you have 20% of the poorest who gain only 3,4% of the national income when you have 20% of the richest who gain the half.

Source : "37million poor hidden in the land of plenty". The Observer.

And I can proceed like that still a long long time, I'm reading a book which list all the bad thing about american system

Another one :

In America the newborn mortality is around of 0,63%, in Cuba 0,59%.

[iLney]

I heard that communism and socialism were originated in Europe.

[TinyRedLeaf]

^ I've got news for you: Capitalism and democracy (gasp) originated from Europe too.

[Cinocard]

Originally Posted by Kusa-San

Here is the truth about the USA :

Between 2000 and 2007 the annual median income for american is passed to 49000$ to 39000$. Fuhtermore, it's the poor who grow even poorer. The income for afro-american family is four time less than for white familiy. In 1970, there were 23millions of poor, in 2007 37millions of poor. There is only one white man out of 12 that is poor against 3 black man out of 4. There is almost 40% of the black chlidren who are poor...
And I can proceed like that still a long long time, I'm reading a book which list all the bad thing about american system

You mean the truth about the world. Growing inequality is a phenomenon belongs not only to the U.S or capitalism.

By the way, Arizona just passed the strictest immigration laws ever in the U.S. I think this may be relevant to the discussion.

You don't like socialism and communism bceause you don't even know what's socialism and communism. I mean, for many american commnism=nazism

You mean communism = worse than nazism. I personally see Stalin as worse than Hitler. No, Stalinism wasn't socialism. But it nevertheless was the result of Lenin and his socialist failures.

Originally Posted by iLney

I heard that communism and socialism were originated in Europe.

They were. So?

[yoropa]

Originally Posted by Kusa-San

I don't agree at all with that. When you'r in a country, you need to adapt yourself to this country. It's not the country to adpat to the people. If you want to see police with hardhat turban go to an arabian country...or in England And I'm not racist at all. It's just, I think, something normal. If I was in an arabian country then, I would adapt myself to this country and its custom.

The Sikh turban has nothing to do with Arabia. It's an Indian religious custom. I'd recommend learning how to differentiate between religions. That's a problem affecting your country as well as mine.

Yes, you adapt to the general setting of the country, I agree. For me, this means learning their language. That doesn't mean you give up your own native tongue or culture, though. You can house both. In terms of a political system, you don't necessarily have to prescribe to the general consensus of the country. You can calmly voice your dissent. It's called elections. Your country has them too.

I'd like to know, from you, what you think the French way of doing things that all immigrants must prescribe to is.

Uh tht's nothing to do with human right. The truth is that, if the France want to forbid the burqa, it's for the human right because the burqa is something which is bad for women right. Free speech != of saying everything.

It is a common misconception that the burqa is forced onto women as a means of male dominance. While that does occur sometimes, there are many women who choose to veil themselves willingly. Let's take a look at both perspectives:

1. Assuming that the burqa is forced on the women. Banning it won't help them, because their ideology is already set to wear it and never show themselves. This is a cause of traumatic and psychological stress for the woman who now will not go outside.

2. Assuming that the burqa is willingly chosen by the women. Banning it may make some of them remove it, yet some women will not make a compromise on what is their religious beliefs. This again is a cause of traumatic and psychological stress for some of, but not all, the women.

In both instances, the ban of the burqa is going to cause mental stress for many of the French citizens. That is an abuse of human rights right there. So are Iranian laws forcing women to veil their hair. I'm a strong supporter of just letting the woman choose if she wishes to veil herself or not. In America, that is the scenario. In France, it is not. That's the problem.

I would also like to clarify that I myself hate the burqa, but if a woman willingly chooses to dress that way, I have no right to voice dissent against her free will. I'd rather that Muslim women who wish to veil themselves wear just a hijab.

America is a country which use the integration positive system. For me, it's not something that works and when I see how it is in America, I think I'lm right. Futhermore, I even think, than immigrate people is more integrate in France than in America.

By "integration positive system" do you mean "affirmative action"? I don't think I fully understand this paragraph.

I don't want to be mistaken for some sort of pro-American, "America is the best country ever!" guy. I have many problems with this country. But I will give credit where credit is due.

Je n’ai pas parlé le français longtemps, donc je suis désolé si j’ai fait une erreur. Mais, je pense qu’il est nécessaire pour comprendre ma bonne volonté pour discuter ces problèms. Je ne deteste pas les Français.

[Kusa-San]

Originally Posted by Cinocard

You mean the truth about the world. Growing inequality is a phenomenon belongs not only to the U.S or capitalism.

Weell, you can say that USA is the best of the world in this domain Serioulsy it's really scary >_> I have not the time to write what I'm reading now but it's even worse than I think it was

You mean communism = worse than nazism. I personally see Stalin as worse than Hitler. No, Stalinism wasn't socialism. But it nevertheless was the result of Lenin and his socialist failures.

Communism!= Stalin. Socialism !=Communism

Originally Posted by yoropa

The Sikh turban has nothing to do with Arabia. It's an Indian religious custom. I'd recommend learning how to differentiate between religions. That's a problem affecting your country as well as mine.

Sorry about that, I'm not an expert about that and even less when it's in English I will answer you later, I'm a too tired right now for posting a long paragraph

[Cinocard]

Originally Posted by Kusa-San

Weell, you can say that USA is the best of the world in this domain Serioulsy it's really scary >_> I have not the time to write what I'm reading now but it's even worse than I think it was

Nah, looks no further than China or India. A good proportion of Africa is very unequal as well. Europe is not in my expertise.

The inequality base in the U.S, while a part is because of the political, the other part is because of its cultural, and more importantly, historic factors.

Also, if you see that inequality in the U.S is growing rapidly in the last two decades, an important note is that technological advances play a very crucial part. The U.S. is in its restructuring phase, transiting to a completely high-tech service economy. Transitions always carry pains. It is in nature that schools and laboratories employ less workers than factories or restaurants.

Communism!= Stalin. Socialism !=Communism

Russia did honestly try a pure version of Marxist socialism during War Communism, but they failed horribly.

Any proclaimed "socialist countries" after that are not socialism. That's why it's valid to say socialism doesn't work, or at the least, has never worked.

[Jinto]

Originally Posted by Cinocard

Any proclaimed "socialist countries" after that are not socialism. That's why it's valid to say socialism doesn't work, or at the least, has never worked.

Which is the very reason why the american angst of US socialism is so surreal for an outsider. The country which features the purest form of capitalism in the western industrialized world is also the place where people fear the most of being drawn into a socialist system. The US system has to become social capitalist system before it can become anything like a socialist system.

[Kudryavka]

Originally Posted by Cinocard

You mean communism = worse than nazism. I personally see Stalin as worse than Hitler. No, Stalinism wasn't socialism. But it nevertheless was the result of Lenin and his socialist failures.

From an All Humans Are Equal standpoint, completely ignoring economy and immigration and all that mess, how is communism worse than pushing the idea that one race is universally superior to all others, and that those who aren't part of this "superior" race are sub-human and deserve to be separated from society, sterilized, and maybe even killed? I can't tell if it's Cino or the one s/he's responding to who's implying that Nazism is not as bad as communism. It's so true that communism is viewed as badly as Nazism here, and it's really pathetic that the majority of Americans dare compare communism and Nazism.

[Xion Valkyrie]

Originally Posted by Cinocard

Nah, looks no further than China or India. A good proportion of Africa is very unequal as well. Europe is not in my expertise.

The inequality base in the U.S, while a part is because of the political, the other part is because of its cultural, and more importantly, historic factors.

China is probably one of the worst offenders in this regard. Their working conditions can be considered the worst in all the industrialized nations. There's a reason why everyone has their manufacturing plants there.

The divide between the rich and poor is so much wider there. The urban areas might seem 'modernized', but if you move away into the countryside and mountains, there are still MANY villages living like they were 40 years ago. Not to mention, the level of pollution they're creating with their fast but cheap industrialization.

[Cinocard]

Originally Posted by Komari

From an All Humans Are Equal standpoint, completely ignoring economy and immigration and all that mess, how is communism worse than pushing the idea that one race is universally superior to all others, and that those who aren't part of this "superior" race are sub-human and deserve to be separated from society, sterilized, and maybe even killed?

It may be the way I wrote it, but what I criticize is not communism, but stalinism. You must see that both Stalinism and Nazism were twisted version of socialism and fascism (which both have very strong intellectual backgrounds and ideologies), directly resulted from severe economic crises of the days. Stalinism and Nazism in fact were very similar; Stalinism just existed longer, in a larger scale, and killed more people. Who care if they enslaved and killed others because they were of "inferior races," or because they were "enemy of the people." The brainwashing methods are equally bullshit to me, and not as relevant as what result from them.

Anyway, this is becoming off-topic.

[mg1942]

^ u just quote the wrong dude

[Nosauz]

Originally Posted by Xion Valkyrie

China is probably one of the worst offenders in this regard. Their working conditions can be considered the worst in all the industrialized nations. There's a reason why everyone has their manufacturing plants there.

The divide between the rich and poor is so much wider there. The urban areas might seem 'modernized', but if you move away into the countryside and mountains, there are still MANY villages living like they were 40 years ago. Not to mention, the level of pollution they're creating with their fast but cheap industrialization.

Seriously... get your facts straight, China is NOT an INDUSTRIALIZED nation. Get your head out of the sand and realize that China is a developing nation, and the wealth Gap has further accelerated since Deng Xiao Ping's restructuring of the Chinese economy into it's hyper corporatocracy.

[Irenicus]

I was actually going to come back to defend America -- or more exactly my experience in America -- from the early assaults and accusations of its utter worthlessness as a place to live (no, it's pretty good when you compare with a lot of the world), but I see that defenders have already risen up -- and gone farther than what I would have thought.

The international members are absolutely correct in their assertion that the United States carry a pathological fear of "Socialism." It is a word without meaning here*, yet infused as the great "Other" that stands against everything American...or something. As an immigrant, I am not acculturated into this fear -- although I do understand its intellectual history -- and looks down upon this provincial boogeyman with proper cosmopolitan disdain.

Originally Posted by Nosauz

Seriously... get your facts straight, China is NOT an INDUSTRIALIZED nation. Get your head out of the sand and realize that China is a developing nation, and the wealth Gap has further accelerated since Deng Xiao Ping's restructuring of the Chinese economy into it's hyper corporatocracy.

...

Industrialization does not exclude hypercapitalism you know. It says nothing about income inequalities, working conditions, or whatever you're angry about.

Also, distinctions of "developing" and "developed" (or "industrializing" and "industrialized") have never been clear and are indeed increasingly blurred in the current global economy. Post-industrialized economies have greatly complicated things, too.

[Nosauz]

Originally Posted by Irenicus

...

Industrialization does not exclude hypercapitalism you know. It says nothing about income inequalities, working conditions, or whatever you're angry about.

Also, distinctions of "developing" and "developed" (or "industrializing" and "industrialized") have never been clear and are indeed increasingly blurred in the current global economy. Post-industrialized economies have greatly complicated things, too.

Industrialized is a term that is in reference to the industrial revolution that took place in Europe and America, when the predominant lifestyle of agraian work shifted to manufacturing jobs, if you look at the total chinese population the state of the "industrialization" is still severly limited to major cities and city hubs, whereas many people still live in countryside. Also my comment about Deng was more about the inequities created, and that socialism isn't the cause of those inequities but the new wild wild west economical landscape that is currently china's marketplace is more responsible for that/ hyper unregulated landscape. The industrialization of China is a slow process and to even considered it to be nearly as industrialized or held to the standards of the industrialized world is just asinine.

[Cinocard]

Originally Posted by Nosauz

Seriously... get your facts straight, China is NOT an INDUSTRIALIZED nation. Get your head out of the sand and realize that China is a developing nation, and the wealth Gap has further accelerated since Deng Xiao Ping's restructuring of the Chinese economy into it's hyper corporatocracy.

No need to bash him like it's the best moment of your life because he needs to change a word's ending from "ed" to "ing." The rest of what he said-equality and life condition in China is more relevant to the topic, which I think you yourself agree that hold some truth to it.

[Nosauz]

Originally Posted by Cinocard

No need to bash him like it's the best moment of your life because he needs to change a word's ending from "ed" to "ing." The rest of what he said-equality and life condition in China is more relevant to the topic, which I think you yourself agree that hold some truth to it.

Well implying that China is equivalent to America or Europe in it's developedness is just ludicrious at best. Also lack of human rights in China is driven by the corporate interests that flock to china for the cheap labor.

[JMvS]

Originally Posted by Nosauz

Well implying that China is equivalent to America or Europe in it's developedness is just ludicrious at best. Also lack of human rights in China is driven by the corporate interests that flock to china for the cheap labor.

Comparing China's level of development to current Europe's or America's sure is a stretch, as it is still far from being as developed.

But still, it surely can be considered an industrialized country, at least as much as were America and the major European countries in the 50's if not 60's. It's economy is already way past the transition from agricultural to industrial and services. And industrial development (meaning implementation of roads, railways, electricity, water, schools and factories, as well as access to consumer goods) is not being restricted to a few "major urban centers"; unless you count thousands as a few.

Well sure, China could be considered only a developing and not an industrialized nation, if only industrialization and it's effect on society didn't have several different steps. Because if you go by these standards, countries such as GB and the US were also "developing" countries prior to the War. And were still developing further afterward.
And given that it were the turmoils of industrialization in XIXth century Europe that gave rise to ideologies such a socialism and communism, citing a widening wealth gap as a disqualifying factor for "developed" status is way too simplifying (especially if we consider how it is evolving in a certain country on the northern part of the American continent).

Actually, using the term industrialized as an equivalent of developed is highly misleading, as several very developed if not highly advanced country have their economies based on resources rather than industry, and other less (or more) advanced rely almost exclusively on services.

We could rather consider 4 "steps" of development:
-subsistence economy, with limited inner and outer trade; typically the undeveloped countries of old.
-connected economy, with significant outer trade, and limited inner trade; typically a country exporting natural resources, but with little if no infrastructure.
-developed economy, with significant inner and outer trade; a country which has implemented efficient means of transportation and basic modern infrastructure across it's territory. China qualifies for this.
-advanced country, already developed; a country which enjoys political and cultural vigor and or radiance, along with social peace. So called "First-World Countries" fare quite diversely in this regard (and for me, the line is becoming incredibly blurry when some are compared with some "Third-World Countries").