[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[theforgot3n1]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

This would include Battler and Erika as well though, although Kinzo was excluded.

Yeah, that's right as well... how is that explained? Did she exclude Erika and Battler as well, maybe implying also the exclusion of the pretending people?

[Drifloon]

The actual red text is:

[Request: 'The six first twilight victims are located at the places where they were discovered. Natsuhi is in her room, Eva is in the VIP room, Kyrie is in Krauss's study, Rosa and Maria are in the parlor, and you are in the guest room!'] I acknowledge it.
[Request: 'Hideyoshi, George, Shannon, Kumasawa, and Nanjo are in the next room over!'] Acknowledged.
[It has already been shown that Kinzo no longer exists, so please remove him from the word 'everyone'.] I acknowledge that everyone else is in the cousins' room.

So it's only Erika who is unaccounted for, which is probably just an oversight on Ryukishi's part.

[Leafsnail]

Has anyone read the Dawn manga? Ryukishi may have corrected it there, like he corrected Banquet's first twilight.

[theforgot3n1]

Originally Posted by Drifloon

The actual red text is:


So it's only Erika who is unaccounted for, which is probably just an oversight on Ryukishi's part.

Though I do think he's said sometimes that "the detective can't be the culprit" or something along those lines.

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by theforgot3n1

Though I do think he's said sometimes that "the detective can't be the culprit" or something along those lines.

That is missing the point though, as Erika being together with "everyone else", would mean that she cannot go to Battler in the mansion.

[Leafsnail]

You can make a fairly consistent claim that Erika is a personality of someone in the cousins' room, or a shakier (can you sever the head of a personality?) claim that she's a personality of one of the first twilight victims (the advantage of this is that it would allow Erika to be Kyrie or Eva).

I can see some appeal in this interpretation, but I think it's more likely that Erika is an actual person and Ryukishi just made a mistake.

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by Leafsnail

You can make a fairly consistent claim that Erika is a personality of someone in the cousins' room, or a shakier (can you sever the head of a personality?) claim that she's a personality of one of the first twilight victims (the advantage of this is that it would allow Erika to be Kyrie or Eva).

I can see some appeal in this interpretation, but I think it's more likely that Erika is an actual person and Ryukishi just made a mistake.

Erika cannot be one of the first twilight victims as that would mean that she commited suicide and therefore cannot check Battler's room. The fact that Erika told Battler in red that the 1st twilight victims cannot save him proves that they were physically killed.

On the other hand, Erika being one of the 5 people in the "next room over" is certainly a possibility.

[PsychoShion]

magic truth = witch culprit RED TRUTH

HUMAN TRUTH = ROSA CULPRIT BLUE TRUTH

GOLDEN TRUTH = SHKANONTRICE

I BELIEVE THE BLUE TRUTH (DENYING WITCHES) WAS THE REAL HIDDEN 3rd LAYER AS MENTIONED IN "OUR CONFESSION". THIS IS WHAT I BELIEVE BEATRICE WAS REFERING TO ONLY 1 in a thousand will figure it out.

the human culprit scenario is never solved unlike the obvious witch theory , and the golden truth is told in ep 7 with the yasu theory .

I BELIEVE THAT THE YASU theory even though it might be r07's golden truth, it was desinged to make you stop looking. i call it the trap.

YASU IS NOT IN 8 and everyones in 8. battler doesnt tell ANGE THAT THIS IS YASU'S STORY.

this IS MARIA'S, ROSA'S, and ANGE'S STORY AND THE RESULT THAT OCCURED AFTER ANGE AND ROSA DENIED MARIA'S MAGIC . ISNT THAT WHAT BATTLERS PURPOSE IN THE GAME? TO DOUBT MAGIC. I DONT BELIEVE BATTLER EXISTS AND ONLY USED AS THE READER"S PIECE.

DID anyone notice how it seemed rosa got to the gold first and at the same time beatrice showed the ceramony of passing her title to eva?

seems like rosa gave her the gold and then set her up to take the blame.. in later eps we see beatrice waiting in the gold room when someone solves the riddle, funny how rosa was standing right behind her. rosa didnt want the gold just off the island

[GreyZone]

You are very loud. Also your evidence is just circumstancial at best. But of course as long as it cannot be 100% denied, you are free to believe whatever you want to believe.

[Dormin]

I believe the 3rd layer/story mentioned in our confessions is the take that Yasu wasn't a violent killer but a suffering angsty girl. Our confessions, and pretty much every board, is written into existence by painting Yasu as the killer.

Therefore the truth that only some people are able to arrive would be Yasu as a pure maiden-type of character.

That's my take though. The intention of the hinted "hidden story" in our confessions is pretty much arguable.

[The Goat]

Going with what was said about Erika, what are people's thoughts on Erika being another facet of Shkanon? It was something I toyed with while reading the 6th novel, but then threw away.

Also, for PsychoShion: do you believe that the stories we are told have Rosa as a culprit, or merely that that is what really happened?

[Dormin]

I find it hard to believe, as erika is clearly linked to bern. Going along this path bern should also be a personality of yasu. Now I can't actually argue about this on a deeper level than 'interesting thought'. Though I believe that interpretation where every meta-character can be seen as personality/trait of yasu is an interesting train of thought and something I used to consider somewhat plausible myself.

[The Goat]

Hm, I had not concidered her connection to Bern. I had always liked the idea as it seemed Yasu would have wanted to "play the mystery game" with Battler as she tries to do in ep 5, in a way, and that she was responsible for the murders in the 6th, as Yasu usually is. Also, in the fourth game Battler mentions that he may be interested in lolita characters, so I figured Yasu created Erika to cater to that need.

I have also toyed with the idea that all of the meta world and the people in it are connected to real people, may I ask why you do not concider this plausible any longer?

[Dormin]

If I had to say, probably because the entire theory was always on an "interesting theory" stage. One of the reasons is also that it is somewhat clearly stated what characters are "canonically" part of yasu.

For example, I could say that Featherine as a person could represent Yasu and her love towards literature and detective novels, making Featherine part of Yasu and even probably somewhat fitting character to explain certain aspects of her character. However, this adds nothing to the story being neither important plot point nor actually foreshadowed, leaving entire theory as something that can be described as "interesting but totally pointless theory".

So in other words, I could never come up with anything relevant outside funny train of thought. But it's fun to toy with: for example bern and yasu clearly share some characteristics, namely the love for pranks and trolling. This way entire story itself could be seen as a mashup of Yasu as a person.

But this should be not taken as my disbelief towards the clear links in the story: it is clear that meta is connected to reality and for example siestas are clearly metaphors for guns etc. I am simply stating that the theory of every character being an presentation of Yasu itself is bit far-fetched.

[AuraTwilight]

I BELIEVE THAT THE YASU theory even though it might be r07's golden truth, it was desinged to make you stop looking. i call it the trap.

This is demonstratably untrue. Ryukishi himself is on record for saying that the Yasu truth was constructed so his answer couldn't be copypasted and people would be able to think about and enjoy Umineko forever.

YASU IS NOT IN 8 and everyones in 8. battler doesnt tell ANGE THAT THIS IS YASU'S STORY.

What are you talking about? Yasu's right there. She's Beatrice, and Kanon, and Shannon, just like she was in every other episode since the first one.

this IS MARIA'S, ROSA'S, and ANGE'S STORY AND THE RESULT THAT OCCURED AFTER ANGE AND ROSA DENIED MARIA'S MAGIC . ISNT THAT WHAT BATTLERS PURPOSE IN THE GAME? TO DOUBT MAGIC. I DONT BELIEVE BATTLER EXISTS AND ONLY USED AS THE READER"S PIECE.

So....there is no Battler Ushiromiya? What the hell are you saying here?

DID anyone notice how it seemed rosa got to the gold first and at the same time beatrice showed the ceramony of passing her title to eva?

seems like rosa gave her the gold and then set her up to take the blame.. in later eps we see beatrice waiting in the gold room when someone solves the riddle, funny how rosa was standing right behind her. rosa didnt want the gold just off the island

Factually untrue. Eva beat Rosa there in the only episode where Rosa solves the epitaph, and never stands behind Beatrice at any point.

[jjblue1]

As for Erika being a part of Yasu:

Apparently a Furudo Erika really existed and had parents.
Of course the Erika we know might not be the real one, which Yasu, Ikuko and Battler/Tohya likely didn't know (unless he was Erika's secret boyfriend) but merely a construction based on the info they had of her so, if info were few, she could end up on being a reflection of her creator's personality/beliefs and the name Furudo Erika being merely a vessel.

Now... where this lead us?
Erika was introduced in Ep 5. Her vessel came into play in the Rokkenjima tragedy after it happened. So Yasu couldn't have used it as alter ego prior to the tragedy.

Due to Ep 5 meta layer it's assumed that it can also represent a disagreement between Tohya and Ikuko, with Tohya refusing to work on the Rokkenjima project any further and Ikuko going through her own way with it. The circumstancial evidence implies there's a different gamemaster, that the gameboard is used differently (the love message is ignored in favour of revenge), a new character as detective is added who's not an alter-ego of Battler/Tohya but an alter-ego of Bern, who's Featherine's miko, who's the witch identity of the duo Hachijo Tohya with Ikuko look and that in Ep 6 will reveal she can't see the gameboard from Battler's perspective anymore due to technical problems... which can be a hint about how the duo isn't cooperating as deeply as before at the moment.

To make a long story short, I'll say Erika is more likely to be a 'portray' of Ikuko than of Yasu (who needed Tohya's help to improve her tales and that, without him, could have regressed into creating a heartless detective) and the only chance for Erika to be also a portray of Yasu is for Yasu to be Ikuko as well.

Which might or might not be, as we know Yasu survived long enough to the Rokkenjima tragedy to toss her tales in the sea... though it can also be that, as the magic ending implied, she drowned herself short after.

On a sidenote Erika is the creepiest character ever, expecially in Ep 6, so I think Tohya will feel safer if Ikuko and Erika have nothing in common... (the ring scene is... is... I've no words for it...)

[The Goat]

Absolutely true, everything that has been said. There is not any clear evidence for Erika being part of Yasu, and more importantly, it does not add much to any theory or interpretation of Umineko. I had almost forgotten that Erika was proven to have really existed, wish some more details around who she was had come up.

And the ring scene really is great... in its own, horrifying way. Erika really is a lesson in contrasts, though. So evil and frightening, but so pathetic when it comes to Bern. Personally I think the scene where she "proves" that Natsuhi and Kinzo slept together is her most evil scene, it is just heartbreaking.

[AuraTwilight]

That being said, while I don't seriously truck with such theories, I always did like the idea of Erika being a personification of Yasu's disenchantment with like....everything.

Erika shows up when Beatrice loses faith in everything, and she dies when Beatrice is reborn. And she denounces, uglifies, and belittles everything Beatrice believes in and stands for. She's essentially her Shadow Archetype in all but name.

[Dormin]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Factually untrue. Eva beat Rosa there in the only episode where Rosa solves the epitaph, and never stands behind Beatrice at any point.

But even though I don't myself believe in Rosa being a culprit in any way, the ides of her solving epitah is sort of interesting detail: it is clearly shown that she CAN solve it, and for example in episode 2, though varying interpretations can be made, one can claim that "Rosa solved epitah" in the chapter. Though the illogical actions (like referring to talking to kinzo) can be explained by Yasu bribing her, I don't think it is wrong to use rosa solving epitah as part of a theory.

On a sidenote Erika is the creepiest character ever

That's quite a lot said about game that has a cast of nightmare-fuel-tier characters. I still have shivers when I think about Yasu pulling the prank with the doll in ep7. Even the characters that aren't fantasy witches pull out sort of tricks (like Kyrie sort of admitting plotting murder) that'd make me run to the opposite direction very fast.

Overall I think Ryu can write "creepy" stories quite well, even though his horror is sort of lacking. Though I rarely feel actual fear of any kind when reading fictional stories.

[AuraTwilight]

But even though I don't myself believe in Rosa being a culprit in any way, the ides of her solving epitah is sort of interesting detail: it is clearly shown that she CAN solve it, and for example in episode 2, though varying interpretations can be made, one can claim that "Rosa solved epitah" in the chapter. Though the illogical actions (like referring to talking to kinzo) can be explained by Yasu bribing her, I don't think it is wrong to use rosa solving epitah as part of a theory.

The thing is we don't actually know if this is true. Rosa solving the epitaph could've just been a fantasy detail to give a false motive for the false Eva culprit theory, etc.