2011-08-21, 17:32 | Link #23861 | |||
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Everything we learn about Ange is either true or impossible to prove unless Ange or the top-layer (in terms of narrative authority) author (Ryûkishi) says so. Yes, Ange is depicted as being a piece in her 1998 scenes, but not a piece of Beatrice or Battler as the pieces of Rokkenjima. In EP4 she is a piece of Bern and in EP6 she is summoned by Featherine, she is even aware of being in a fabricated universe in EP6 ("And because of that this was all deception"). But why is it better to have that as a part of the fictions itself? You said yourself that the meta-meta-world of EP6 was probably fabricated by Anges thoughts. So we need an Ange that truly exists in order to produce that meta-meta-world unless you are of the position that the meta-world(s) are part of the fiction as well. By the way, I took the time and searched for a script of the Chiru Episodes and we learn this about the fictions and their authors in EP6: Spoiler for length:
So it is at least implied that Banquet was different from the EP3 we saw and that it actually ended with a depiction of Eva arriving at Kuwadorian. There is also no mention of Ange being included in the plot of Alliance. Hachijô even says that she had seen and heard some about Ange in wideshows but it was nice to meet her finally and how she might be angry for killing her family so many times in fiction. I think it would be strange not to mention the plot of 1998 had it been included in the fictions. It would also be strange for Ange to have a perfect memory of all of her investigations on Hachijô but confuse 50% of her last novel for her own memory. Quote:
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And just as much is Anges fate a catbox to us until we read the ???? of EP8 and accept that Kotobuki Yukari is actually Ushiromiya Ange (which you could as much doubt, if you start doubting that the other family members died). She could have went to Rokkenjima and died, went to Rokkenjima and became a murderer...she could even have died by jumping of the building. The possibilities are endless. It's not about parallel universes, it's about uncertainty creating infinite possibilities. That is why Lambdadelta has power over Beatrice, because certainty crushes infinity. Once you know that Kotobuki Yukari is Ushiromiya Ange after she changed her name, every possibility that depicts something else crumbles. |
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2011-08-21, 21:33 | Link #23862 | |||||||||
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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As for why I think it's better if they are part of the fictions, it's because I don't think that there should be any Kakeras that exist except those that have been conceived through someone imagining them and conveying them to others (through writing). And who else would write about Ange besides Touya? Quote:
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Plus, I think that the topic may have just been avoided because RK07 didn't want to spell it out for us. In fact, this makes sense; he still left a lot of hints, like how Ange's memory was somehow distorted. Quote:
Hmm. I don't remember Battler's exact reaction when lil' Ange questioned him about this in episode 8. Quote:
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2011-08-21, 22:14 | Link #23863 | |||
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That's the problem I'm having...if 1998 Ange is just a fabrication of Tôya, then she could very likely be nothing like the real Ange of 1998. Everybody from Rokkenjima he described are based on things he actually knew about them or could imagine them doing...but he only knew Ange from 1 to 6 years old and didn't meet her again until she was maybe something along the lines of 40. Therefore 1998 Ange would be nothing more than Erika in terms o substantiality. And that's why I don't like the idea of 1998 being part of Tôyas fictions. Quote:
I think it doesn't need Kakera to exist that much after all. Not more than is actually accepted within the plot, for example by Kotobuki Yukari thinking about what "the witch said in red about Ushiromiya Battler being dead". Quote:
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2011-08-22, 02:50 | Link #23864 | |
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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And Ange's existence was not a secret to the public until she disappeared in 1998. In fact, she was under a lot of public scrutiny; even Ikuko remarked on her reputation. Touya could combine his memories of Ange as a 6-year-old, common knowledge and rumors about her, and his own imagination of what she's gone through; all to write a fiction that would certainly have an inaccurate characterization of Ange, but no more inaccurate than what he has already done with the people on Rokkenjima. So yeah, maybe the real Ange never did anything drastic in order to find the truth; she just changed her name and moved on when Eva died. But, that's not what we are reading about; we're reading about Touya's mind. You know how RK07 loves to write from these kinds of one-sided, unreliable viewpoints (I'll submit Higurashi's Onikakushi-hen as a prime example). The meaning behind Ange's story as Touya's fiction is in how it shows his regret, lament, and worries for Ange. And of course, it makes for a good, tragic story to boot. Here's an interesting thought: How did Sakutarou make it into the forgeries (he shows up indisputably in episode 6)? Wouldn't Touya have to have heard of him from somewhere? Did he hear about him on the island in 1986? Or did he somehow read about it later from Maria's diary or something? Or did he just make him up on his own? |
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2011-08-22, 04:03 | Link #23866 | ||
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Let's look at which characters Tôya actually developed in his stories:
Then let's look at the other developments we had along the way:
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The only places where Sakutarô actually appears are meta-scenes. So unless we agree that those are in the stories, there is no need for Tôya to have any knowledge of Sakutarô or Maria's relation to him. Even Erika's battle against Maria in EP6 is fought on a meta-plane. I hope you're not taking this as agressive. It's not like your theory is impossible, it's quite possible to accept your idea...it's just that I don't see any reason for it besides fancying a whole fictional universe over the idea of parallel universes created by thoughts. I'd rather have the second than the whole 1998 plot being just guilt ridden Tôya. |
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2011-08-22, 04:50 | Link #23867 | |||
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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Sakutarou is also in the scene in episode 4 where Maria kills Rosa over and over again. What plane is that scene in? Eerily, Maria wakes up with the cousins right after the scene, and throws a big tantrum when Battler makes a little tease about her being "half asleep". Quote:
As for why I want a "whole universe": I feel that Umineko was written with the intent to work on multiple levels. For example, as a mystery and as a fantasy. As a fantasy, it's not hard to get; what is presented to you is what happened. The mystery requires a lot more thought. In the same spirit I believe that it's intended to work as both a single universe and a Kakera multiverse. Accepting a Kakera multiverse is fine, but it does not take that much thought. I want to understand both sides, so I'm trying to figure out the single universe solution, which is much harder. I don't think the Kakera multiverse solution is bad, it just doesn't require discussion. |
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2011-08-22, 07:02 | Link #23868 |
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On the matter of whether the 18 humans could be written, in a fiction, with any degree of accuracy to their "real selves".
Sometimes, it's fairly obvious the author just avoids a character for sheer, utter lack of knowledge about them (lol Genji, and the fathers). But let's not forget that most of those people also had, y'know, LIVES. You can't confirm with certainty that "Jessica was an upbeat girl who faked asthma sometimes", but you could reasonably verify something like "She was known to her friends and teachers as an upbeat girl with asthma, which one or two people felt, occasionally, were very conveniently timed" ... ... for, y'know, semantic exactitude or whatever. Basically, everyone's true character is in the catbox (well, at least the behavior they would've had during the conference, as none of Jessica's friends would know if, say, she would became sullen and depressed when she was alone), HOWEVER, I still believe "pieces must act in character = because R-Prime people would call bullshit otherwise. The "wouldn't put it past him" game could probably be done with Kinzo so extensively because as far as ANYONE knew, Kinzo had become a slightly unhinged recluse for the last X years. |
2011-08-22, 08:25 | Link #23869 |
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Though again we run into the R-Prime problem, which is that while we could ask these questions of people familiar with the "real" people, we can't do that if we don't live in R-Prime (which, as far as I know, we don't). Thus we're limited to the information and witnesses the author is willing to throw at us, to say nothing of the information and witnesses the in-universe authors actually have (and they don't tell us their sources, it seems).
So while it's possible there is a coworker out there who claims Kyrie loved cute stuffed bunnies, thought knives were scary, and believed murder for money is one of the most despicable things anyone could do, if we're never shown this person we kind of just have to assume there weren't any R-Prime people calling shenanigans on any particular characterization, and thus, that the characterizations were more or less accurate. Possible exceptions for the one-winged servants and Kinzo, of course, whom many people may not have known very well. Although if Yasu existed, there'd be documentation about that, and presumably Genji has ID or something, so it's not like their existence is impossible to trace.
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2011-08-22, 15:48 | Link #23871 |
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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Speaking of episode 7. What is it? A forgery? All meta? Yasu's diary? It has a forgery-like title (Requiem of the Golden Witch).
How come Gaap appeared in Alliance; how would Touya know about her? It seems pretty severe to imagine that he knew Yasu's past so well to write Requiem, or that he made it up. And if Touya didn't write it, who did? No one? |
2011-08-22, 16:15 | Link #23872 | |||
The True Culprit
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2011-08-22, 18:49 | Link #23875 | ||
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2011-08-22, 19:24 | Link #23877 |
The True Culprit
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I wouldn't say so. For one thing, the witches were only given an appearance in Maria's notebook in the MANGA, which is canonically iffy at best.
Given that Ryukishi confirmed that he left a lot of things open and changed things along the way, it's more likely he peppered chekov's gun elements all over the place so he could finalize his decisions later and still seem self-consistent. It's common among writers.
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2011-08-23, 08:22 | Link #23880 |
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I'm pretty sure there's no physical descriptions of Gaap until ep4, and I'm not even remotely convinced that Gaap's explanation in ep7 was actually thought up before ep4. In fact I'd wager a modest sum that he made that one up later.
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