[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[RandomUser]

There is three ways to go to Kuwadorian:

1) Golden land (Probably the only way in the gameboard)
2) By boat (Impossible on the gameboard because of the storm)
3) Through the forest (Very difficult but possible inside the gameboard)

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by Apaula

I think that makes sense? So there's still a hole but the well itself just doesn't open? And the only way to Kuwadorian is through the gold room then I'm assuming?

The well is sealed with an iron grating that is set into the well itself. Battler tries to break it open with (if I remember correctly) an axe, but fails to even deal a bigger scratch to it. He then drops something inside to test the depths, but comments that nothing bigger than his arm or a gun could pass through the grating. It was very clear that it was meant to be a hint that the culprit dropped the weapon into the well.

The only known way to the underground tunnels seems to be through the gold room, which is sensible considering that it is the other side of where the base used to be and this would then be the escape tunnel back then.

[Apaula]

Oh cool, thanks for the info!

Another question. In ep 4, how did the first twilight occur? Since Kinzo appears and such. I get that it was an illusion but it seems almost the entirety of Episode 4 is just fantasy play and I don't quite understand most of what happened because of it.

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by Apaula

Another question. In ep 4, how did the first twilight occur? Since Kinzo appears and such. I get that it was an illusion but it seems almost the entirety of Episode 4 is just fantasy play and I don't quite understand most of what happened because of it.

Just try ripping the fantasy from the scenes and you might get a hint of what might have happened. So "Kinzo" came into the hall to greet his "children", and when they didn't live up to expectations he summoned the (Win)ch[i]esters to kill off 6 of them, taking the others hostage.

I admit that EP4 is the most difficult scenario in terms of there only being a single line of verbal communication. Battler is not allowed to view any of the crime scenes so we are left with what we get at the end.

So Gohda and Kumasawa are likely not dead when Battler first passes the shed at the end, but George clearly is. He is not able to confirm any further deaths until several hours later, which leaves the culprit ample time to go around and finish anything left undone and finally killing themselves near the well.

More than a fantasy play I would see EP4 as one of the biggest hints in terms of how Beatrice's magic works.

[RandomUser]

To me the EP4, more than explaining how the magic works, was more to explain why the magic is needed. In EP3 Virgilia explained literally what the magic and fantasy were, but she didn't explain the motives to use magic.

EP4 in terms of how dunnit is very simple, everyone were just lying to Battler, but in this episode Beatrice says clearly that Battler has a promise to fulfill and I don't remember in which gameboard, but Shanon was telling to the cousins the embarrasing dark history of Battler which included the promise to came back riding a white horse, so one just needed to connect it together with all those strange gazes that Shanon and Kanon was giving to Battler to understand the heart of the mystery.

[Mali]

I wonder what's the payback of Kanon was. It wasn't Battler helping Kanon with the bags, isn't?

[RandomUser]

I suspected that Kanon was homo in the scene where Battler was helping Kanon with the bags, but It took me a while to realize the connection of that scene to Shanon and Beato.

[Apaula]

Originally Posted by haguruma

Just try ripping the fantasy from the scenes and you might get a hint of what might have happened. So "Kinzo" came into the hall to greet his "children", and when they didn't live up to expectations he summoned the (Win)ch[i]esters to kill off 6 of them, taking the others hostage.

I admit that EP4 is the most difficult scenario in terms of there only being a single line of verbal communication. Battler is not allowed to view any of the crime scenes so we are left with what we get at the end.

So Gohda and Kumasawa are likely not dead when Battler first passes the shed at the end, but George clearly is. He is not able to confirm any further deaths until several hours later, which leaves the culprit ample time to go around and finish anything left undone and finally killing themselves near the well.

More than a fantasy play I would see EP4 as one of the biggest hints in terms of how Beatrice's magic works.

So Yasu goes to them, gives them a chat about how she they suck and kills six of them?

Then she kills Jessica and George, with Jessica forcing her to call first then boom headshot?

I'm guessing Gohda and Kumasawa are just pretending to be hanging while standing on something.

[RandomUser]

Originally Posted by Apaula

So Yasu goes to them, gives them a chat about how she they suck and kills six of them?

Then she kills Jessica and George, with Jessica forcing her to call first then boom headshot?

I'm guessing Gohda and Kumasawa are just pretending to be hanging while standing on something.

You are missing the most important part about that gameboard, as I said before the answer of that riddle is really easy, everybody are lying to Battler, the question is why they need to lie to him.

The key point of that gameboard was showing the motive of the case right in front of Battler's face while shoving the answer at his face, shouting, waving the arms, with neon signs, dancing and singing.

[turlingdrome]

I'm not too sure about EP4's solution myself, but it's probably worth considering why EP4 is so different from the other games. It can't be coincidence that suddenly the crimes start earlier, and that so many accomplices are willing to participate.
Also remember that the true culprit doesn't have access to unlimited power. Who lived and who died might be random chance, but it's hard to imagine a human being both willing and capable of choosing them on a whim. Which people survived might tell us something about the truth behind the lies.

[RandomUser]

In the fourth game, everyone died

In all the gameboards is heavily implied that accomplices are easy to get using golden magic + gun + bomb, the only stable accomplices are the servants. Also it shows that Kyrie is the most dangerous accomplice to the culprit.

The culprit of the gameboards doesn't have unlimited power but has lots of money, a gigantic bomb, many guns, a loyal accomplice (Genji), a stupid accomplice (Kumasawa + Gohda) and all the keys of the mansion, that's enough to control everyone as she wants.

[turlingdrome]

I agree Yasu had lots of tools, but I don't see how any of those things would allow her to launch an assault on the family conference.
Like you said, Genji's the only one likely to actually take a gun to the family members besides Yasu herself. Are we supposed to believe that the two of them held all the adult Ushiromiyas and the remaining servants at bay, killing half of them and holding all the others captive for hours on end? I doubt anyone but Gohda could actually be bribed into committing murder, and it's dubious that Gohda would trust Yasu enough to take her side, given his low opinion of her even as a servant.

Not saying this whole thing's impossible, but it certainly wouldn't be easy, and the Knox rules require that we figure out how she did it.

[RandomUser]

My solution summary of the solution of the fourth gameboard:

First twilight, nobody died, they were just lying. Remember that Gohda and Kumasawa aren't as loyal as Genji and they aren't willing to help a killing for money, so they can only contribute if they think the murders are false.

Second twilight, George and Jessica were headshooted, Jessica was tricked to call Battler before showing the gun.

In between, Beatrice and Genji kills for real the sacrifices for the first twilight, this time is two gun armed men against unarmed persons so they could pull it off easily.

Fourth twilight, Kanon persona is killed.

Don't remember the order of the twilights, but they are being killed one by one by Beatrice and Genji, Kyrie obviously suspected the "murder game" so while she was tricking Battler about magic being real she also gave him some hints. Shanon shooted herself and made the gun fly away using a rock.

At last, Battler dies in the explosion of the island.

[haguruma]

I think we must also consider that for EP4 two perspectives collide.
As CotGW tells us, these were plans that the culprit was planning to set into motion, but at the same time the story is written by an author with incomplete memory of the events.

In the end it doesn't really matter when the people in the dining room died, but I also see a strong hint towards what actually happened in the events depicted to us.
What I always found interesting is that "Kinzo" is basically just standing there and ordering the Chiesters to attack. Even when Rosa attacks him, she is taken out not by him but by one of the Chiesters who is busy holding those down who aren't killed.

Even before EP7 I saw it as a possibility that we have a coded way of saying, "Kinzo" handed out the guns but somebody else used them.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by RandomUser

Yeah, most people would break under that kind of pressure, but not everyone would reach the answer of killing everyone, so to me is a normal crazy.
A phycopath would be one who became extremely crazy without a hard push.

We're also talking of a different culture were suicide/group suicide isn't always considered as the wrong answer.

In my country it'll be definitely considered madness and something you must not do no matter what but Japan looks at this sort of things from a different perspective.

Originally Posted by RandomUser

It's a fact that she pay in advance the accomplices, so she really was planning on doing a mystery, the thing that I'm not sure it's that the murder were going to be real or not.

No, she's not paying them in advance. The manga revealed she sent money to everyone as compensation in case they all end up killed.

The great problem we have in judging all this is that Sayo had prepared her murder plan but since she never managed to put it into action (and actually in the end tried to save the others) we'll never know if, hadn't the adults solved the epitaph, she would have had the guts to really kill someone.

There's plenty of people who think they can kill someone but when they're about to do it... don't feel up to do it anymore.

Sayo was more prone to live in a world of fantasy than in the real world. It was easy for her to think about killing in the fantasy world... but we can't tell if she'll manage to pull the trigger when she would be facing... let's say George.

Originally Posted by turlingdrome

Not sure we can be that vague about it. If the gameboards truly depict Yasu's character, then she must have attempted it in real life. Otherwise, Ryuukishi is admitting that the culprit in the stories is an unrealistic one.

Hum... not quite. For example we know that Yasu wouldn't have used Battler as an accomplice... but in Ep 5 she did.

You can do whatever you want with the pieces, even use Battler as the culprit... as long as the pieces have the physical ability to do the actions you want them to do and follow certain characteristics that make them look more or less 'in character'.

So we can have a Yasu culprit on the gameboard because she had the plan to kill everyone and the possibility... even if at the end she could have not felt up to it.

Originally Posted by Prototype909

So aside from now knowing that some variation of the Rudolf/Kyrie killings ala the Episode 7 Tea Party is the basis for Prime, does the manga confirm anything else beyond that? Or is it still "Yeah Rudolf and Kyrie killed people but we're still left with huge gaps because we only get to see Eva's incomplete perspective of the whole thing to ultimately shape our own view of the events + some stuff from Tohya's also messed up memory".

Very likely Ep 7 Teaparty is accurate enough. Ep 8 manga version confirmed that Kyrie shot Sayo and that she and Rudolf were willing to kill Battler is he refused to cooperate/they couldn't trick him.

The best we can argue at this point is if Kyrie cared for Ange or lied because after Rudolf died she just wanted to be killed and have Eva take care of her.

We'll never know but let's not forget that Kyrie meant to use her own son as a toll to beat Asumu... and this didn't happen just because Rudolf switched the babies. It can entirely be that Kyrie, by 1986, was in such a mindsetting that she viewed Ange more as a tool than as her daughter. We see in Ep 6 that she was already pretty disturbed, so it can be that she had used Ange to get Rudolf.

On the other side I like to think that, in her own way, she'd been fond of her daughter... but maybe her mind was far too gone to realize it.

Originally Posted by RandomUser

Then I should feel angry at myself for trying to solve the real incident? I mean it is really easy to find human methods in every gameboard mysteries and the truth about Beatrice (I couldn't figure out Beatrice's truth until the sixth game, but that's just because I'm new to mysteries).

No, we all tried to solve it... it just wasn't the main goal to the game. We were told right when Ange's world was introduced that there weren't enough info to do it... although there were enough info to assume that in Prime Rudolf and/or Kyrie did something horrible and Eva covered up for them.

Originally Posted by Doughnut

I do not like the idea of Battler being a genius and have everything planned so that Beatrice would revive. Even if he had thought about the solution involving Shkannontrice (which I doubt in the first place, because you also need some other tricks to make Kanon escape from his own closed room), he would not use it because he explicitly said to chick Beato that he would not reveal her true nature. Her remembering it by herself is the last miracle he can hope for.
So no need to make Battler the mastermind behind everything.

Actually, when Bern figures out that there can be a solution but it would expose Beatrice's heart and so Battler wouldn't use it, Lambda think that Bern has forgotten that Battler had promised he would 'kill' Beatrice, ence he'll have to expose her heart.

However Battler didn't just want to kill 'Beatrice' but also wanted chick Beato to 'remember' her own identity. Very likely the whole magic setting with the whole love duel is constructed to wake up Beatrice's memory.

In short Battler must have known he could use a trick similar to the one Beato used, if not the same... but decided against it in hope it would work as a trigger for Beato. Remember that in Prime it was 'Beatrice' who saved him. Everything in Ep 6 is meant to work exactly to push her to remember who she was and save him. That's his main goal.

If however in the 'logic error' there was no trick that Beatrice could use... Battler would have lost from beginning. Beatrice wouldn't have been able to save him and everything would be lost. Battler had to have in mind a trick using ShKannon, possibly not the same as Beato but one that existed otherwise it wouldn't have been a bet.

Personally though, I like to think Beato thought to a different trick than him and therefore ended up developing the story differently from how Battler planned but still in a possible way.

Also, in itself we're thinking creating a logic error is difficult but in truth is pretty easy. All he had to do is to think to a trick at which Erika wouldn't think and pretend he doesn't have the solution for it.

Originally Posted by RandomUser

In Confession Beatrice can't move another piece that isn't hers (Kanon and Shanon), so I think is a fact that even the game master can't move every piece as he/she desires, and can only use the piece or pieces that are the culprit (not accomplice) of an especific game.

Hum, no, in Confession Beatrice explained how, with the right setting she could basically move everyone by making that person her accomplice.

This however comes with limits as she, for example, know that Kyrie would be a risky piece to use as she's not easy to manipulate and could turn against her.

In short she has minor control on the other pieces but she can still try to use them... if the setting is right.

Originally Posted by marianx

can anyone give me some hints regarding rule x y z? im having trouble grasping it.. ive read berns letter. im assuming rule x relates to battlers promise? if i'm right about this please tell me.

From Ep 8 manga version:

Rule X: The accomplice is different every time.
The adults are all in financial trouble.
It is easy to bribe them.

Rule Y: Lies agreed on by everyone can be depicted as actually happening.
In a locked room situation anything goes.
People who observe the golden butterflies are either accomplices or dead.
Those who were not bribed can only see the golden butterflies in the timespace of 30 minutes before their death.

Rule Z: Somebody, please stop me! I don't wish for "Certainity", since I want it to be solved by you, I will not push you too much. Be it winning and dying together with everyone or losing by having it all be solved, both are an outcome I desire.

Originally Posted by Mali

It's hard to choose whether Tohya or Ikuko had written the stories. Well, Iku refered the books as MY books. It's a fact Ikuko has the skill of writing sche built up and Battler/Tohya was just a reader. Toya may gave the ideas like tricks, pattern etc. ...and Iku wrote them down and added meta.
Because EP 5 and 6 had "different" style regarding the mystery and Ange said the tales get more credibility each time I would say Iku followed the pattern "first my red hering answer, then Tohya's answer".
I agree the 7th was written by Iku.
I think someone (Haguma?) mentioned that Twilight was started by Iku and Tohya together, it fits since Battler and Bern started the game at the same time. But why was Confession even needed (in the manga) if the Basis was already included in Requiem?

The manga confirmed that Tohya and Ikuko write together. Tohya plans the drafts, Ikuko basically does the writing.

Ep 7 is very likely a... Meta version of Confession of the Golden Witch for its first part and of Eva's diary for the second part.

The manga also explained that Meta characters are... well something close to souls. MetaBeatrice is nothing else but the soul of Yasuda Sayo, MetaBattler is probably a part of Battler's soul who died that day (which makes sense as Tohya insists on claiming although he has Battler's body he's not Battler).
MetaAnge is also a part of Ange's soul that 'died' when Ange jumped off the building.

... and there's something really interesting about butterflies, which are so tied to Beatrice.

A Butterfly is a symbol which can represent the "Soul of a living or dead person", the "Mind", the "longevity", the "freedom", the "metamorphosis", a "young maidenhood" or the "marital happiness". Butterflies can also symbolize the loss of memories. In the mythology of Japan, they carry the Souls of those who have died or deliver a message. Following a butterfly will lead to a mystery's solution. Some philosophies think butterflies also give spiritual teachings.

Originally Posted by turlingdrome

I agree Yasu had lots of tools, but I don't see how any of those things would allow her to launch an assault on the family conference.
Like you said, Genji's the only one likely to actually take a gun to the family members besides Yasu herself. Are we supposed to believe that the two of them held all the adult Ushiromiyas and the remaining servants at bay, killing half of them and holding all the others captive for hours on end? I doubt anyone but Gohda could actually be bribed into committing murder, and it's dubious that Gohda would trust Yasu enough to take her side, given his low opinion of her even as a servant.

Not saying this whole thing's impossible, but it certainly wouldn't be easy, and the Knox rules require that we figure out how she did it.

In Ep 4 Sayo bribed everyone to do her bidding. Due to this 6 people went in the dining hall with some excuse... Sayo and Genji joined them and killed them when they didn't expect it.

The manga shows how they killed those 6 people by catching them on surprise. As the others played along they likely had no idea those 6 died... but possibly though it was all a game.

[turlingdrome]

Originally Posted by jjblue1

We're also talking of a different culture were suicide/group suicide isn't always considered as the wrong answer.

In my country it'll be definitely considered madness and something you must not do no matter what but Japan looks at this sort of things from a different perspective.

I'm no expert on Japanese attitudes to suicide, but I'm pretty sure that no sane person in modern Japan views involuntary mass suicides as a gray area.

Originally Posted by jjblue1

Hum... not quite. For example we know that Yasu wouldn't have used Battler as an accomplice... but in Ep 5 she did.

You can do whatever you want with the pieces, even use Battler as the culprit... as long as the pieces have the physical ability to do the actions you want them to do and follow certain characteristics that make them look more or less 'in character'.

So we can have a Yasu culprit on the gameboard because she had the plan to kill everyone and the possibility... even if at the end she could have not felt up to it.

The key phrase being "more or less in character". I don't buy that Ryuukishi intentionally made his characters act out of character for the sake of convenience. If he was okay with that, I don't think he'd spend so much time talking about flipping the chessboard, understanding the heart, and without love it cannot be seen.

If it were a question of him making a mistake and accidentally having a piece do something out of character, I could believe it. No one's perfect, not even Ryuukishi. But intentionally writing a broken story? Not a chance.

If someone seems to do something out of character, it must be because we're missing something, even if that "something" happens to be that Ryuukishi wrote that line at 2 in the morning. And I don't think Ryuukishi makes mistakes like that often.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by turlingdrome

I'm no expert on Japanese attitudes to suicide, but I'm pretty sure that no sane person in modern Japan views involuntary mass suicides as a gray area.

Well, we aren't talking of modern times but 1986, on an island on which the only residents tend to stuck on traditions.
Also while Wikipedia is not the most reliable source I guess this article on suicide in Japan present a quite different view on suicide that there is in other countries.

Originally Posted by turlingdrome

The key phrase being "more or less in character". I don't buy that Ryuukishi intentionally made his characters act out of character for the sake of convenience. If he was okay with that, I don't think he'd spend so much time talking about flipping the chessboard, understanding the heart, and without love it cannot be seen.

If it were a question of him making a mistake and accidentally having a piece do something out of character, I could believe it. No one's perfect, not even Ryuukishi. But intentionally writing a broken story? Not a chance.

If someone seems to do something out of character, it must be because we're missing something, even if that "something" happens to be that Ryuukishi wrote that line at 2 in the morning. And I don't think Ryuukishi makes mistakes like that often.

In Forgery XXX we're told that Battler can be used as a culprit as long as he is 'in character'. Otherwise Battler asks specifically to be destroyed and both Ronove and Beato confirms he is 'himself'.

In Umineko we've an interesting talk about how everyone could become a murder... or be saved from becoming one.
In short becoming a murder or not isn't considered an 'in character' factor.

That one is merely due to circumstances and probabilities.

Piece Sayo had reached a certain mindsetting due to which she was capable of committing murder in cold blood.

Prime Sayo cried just by writing it. Prime Sayo could have committed murder if she had managed to reach the mindsetting of Piece Sayo... but I don't think she was there yet. She thought she would get there... but I'm not sure if she would manage... and I think we'll never know.

Same as Eva who could shoot at Rudolf and Kyrie in anger and desperation for what they've done... but before they did it, she had never done so much as considered killing them.

I hope I made things a bit more clearer?

[turlingdrome]

Originally Posted by jjblue1

In Forgery XXX we're told that Battler can be used as a culprit as long as he is 'in character'. Otherwise Battler asks specifically to be destroyed and both Ronove and Beato confirms he is 'himself'.

In Umineko we've an interesting talk about how everyone could become a murder... or be saved from becoming one.
In short becoming a murder or not isn't considered an 'in character' factor.

That one is merely due to circumstances and probabilities.

Piece Sayo had reached a certain mindsetting due to which she was capable of committing murder in cold blood.

Prime Sayo cried just by writing it. Prime Sayo could have committed murder if she had managed to reach the mindsetting of Piece Sayo... but I don't think she was there yet. She thought she would get there... but I'm not sure if she would manage... and I think we'll never know.

Same as Eva who could shoot at Rudolf and Kyrie in anger and desperation for what they've done... but before they did it, she had never done so much as considered killing them.

I hope I made things a bit more clearer?

On the whole it makes sense to me and seems to fit with Umineko's message.

However, every time this topic comes up, someone says "I don't think Yasu really would have done it in prime." And I agree with that.

The question then is what specifically was different on the Gameboard? Why is everyone half-convinced that Yasu couldn't do it in Prime, but totally convinced that she did do it on the Gameboard?

We're talking about the central motive of a mystery novel culprit in a series that stresses motive. If the Knox Rules apply even in the slightest, then there's got to be some specific evidence explaining the difference between the two Yasus.

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by turlingdrome

The question then is what specifically was different on the Gameboard? Why is everyone half-convinced that Yasu couldn't do it in Prime, but totally convinced that she did do it on the Gameboard?

What was different is that there is not one Yasuda Sayo on the gameboard, but an entity split into 3 distinct characters: Shannon (who desires happiness), Kanon (who desires freedom), and Beatrice (who desires control). Beatrice is clearly the one who even Sayo believes to be the strongest among her different ambitions, so it is clear why she would envision the witch to be victorious.

I think we also have to consider how in both EP3 and 4 the meta-narrative shows Beato losing to a certain degree, which always implied to me that the original culprit lost control of these boards. Be that by Eva-Beato highjacking her game (I still think this was only half a ruse by Beato) or by her basically giving up on her own game.

I think the idea that Yasu couldn't have done it in Prime is an understandable one, since people want her to be at least a tragic character instead of a tragic villain. I also think that the gameboards tell us what her worries would have been through Shannon and Kanon, but that if a scenario like EP1, 2 or 4 would have come up, she would have ended up doing it.
The problem ends up being one of probability, and that of Sayo actually having the opportunity for murder is exceedingly low.

When it comes to "writing broken games", EP5 is a clear example that this is allowed to a certain extent. Like EP8 (manga) tells us, the author of End made the culprit do things that they could do but wouldn't. This ended up creating a game without love, since love was the reason that the culprit would never choose the move that the author of End made them do.
And this is where even broken games become huge hints, because they make you reconsider the whydunnit.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by turlingdrome

On the whole it makes sense to me and seems to fit with Umineko's message.

However, every time this topic comes up, someone says "I don't think Yasu really would have done it in prime." And I agree with that.

The question then is what specifically was different on the Gameboard? Why is everyone half-convinced that Yasu couldn't do it in Prime, but totally convinced that she did do it on the Gameboard?

We're talking about the central motive of a mystery novel culprit in a series that stresses motive. If the Knox Rules apply even in the slightest, then there's got to be some specific evidence explaining the difference between the two Yasus.

I think that the trick is that in Prime happened something Sayo hadn't planned.
Part of her desperation was due to Battler not coming back to her and her thinking as if she'd been tossed away from him and that he only made fun of her so that her feelings were one sided.

George instead confirms that Battler was serious with her, that it was obvious.
And Battler, now back in Prime, is happy to see her, he hasn't forgotten her, he's trying to get close to her again.

It's all new info that PieceSayo didn't have when she made her plans.

It's all new info that should have shaken her.

As Haguruma said Sayo is split in 3 entities, Beatrice being the stronger but Beatrice is formed in a way by two parts... one of which is the part that loves Battler, that loses if Battler isn't present, basically leaving free groud to the Beatrice who just wants destruction, but that when Battler is back wants to be with him the most and when Battler is in danger goes and tries to save him.

Battler is back. He's 'her' Battler. He didn't 'die' 6 years ago and was replaced with a stranger as she implied in Ep 4. 6 years ago... he meant every word he said. Love wasn't an illusion, it was there and had she waited for him... she could have had hope (remembers how in Higurashi they draw a line between Shion who didn't wait for Satoshi and got mad and Satoko who waited for him and managed to remain sane?).

I think... this should shake her mindsetting. Even though she's still suicidal... even though she still hates herself... even though she has already sent the letter... at midnight she's waiting in the golden room, probably still thinking, probably still trying to decide what to do.

She's not setting up the first 6 sacrifices as she does in the episodes.

So, honestly, I think her murderous spirit has dropped rock bottom.

We even get a hint in Ep 1, when Kanon sees Battler and even he is affected. Kanon wasn't meant to be affected by Battler. Yet, unplanned to Sayo, it happened. Kanon's reaction to Battler is different to his reaction to Jessica in teh same scene. The unplanned affected the planned (we also see this with Natsuhi). In Ep 1 it doesn't manage to make much in terms of stopping her... but in Prime as the unplanned was something bigger it should have affected her more.