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Old 2021-03-01, 02:10   Link #8701
shmaster
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
Wait, a few months? Seriously? OK, Madoka program is out then.
OK, next, if Dustin's best case scenario can solve soul death issue as well, why isn't Shiro helping him deal with Kuro?
We don't know what is Dustin's alternative in solving the soul collapse issue.
Ariel isn't liking this, as she suspect Dustin's alternative is going to be something extremely unfavorable towards her or Shiro.
But either way, as long as Dustin plans to let Sariel die, Ariel is not backing off. If Ariel is not backing off, so does Shiro.

The focal point of this conflict is never about the genocide, but the good old "save many people you don't know or just one person that's dear to you" dilemma.
Ariel didn't even have the chance to make a choice back then because she was too weak and young at the time.
Now she can so she wants her mother back.
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Old 2021-03-01, 02:19   Link #8702
erneiz_hyde
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So now Shun is the one in Ariel's position of being weak and young. Imagine Shun surviving and becoming the next Maou for the next generation of living beings.
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Old 2021-03-01, 03:31   Link #8703
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Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
So now Shun is the one in Ariel's position of being weak and young. Imagine Shun surviving and becoming the next Maou for the next generation of living beings.
Only if Shiro's plan doesn't work, and D's system still keeps working, while every strong one currently alive die.

From what i understand, the title of "Maou" is given to the current strongest living being (who isn't an Admin) as per D's system, and even Ariel i think got the "Maou" title after the previous one died (which i think was the reason behind the death of those students on Earth, because of D's presences).

So, for Shun to become a "Maou", he would first have to attain long lifespan while changing his race, and then be the strongest living being, which considering his current power level, i doubt he would become anytime soon.
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Old 2021-03-01, 03:35   Link #8704
shmaster
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
So now Shun is the one in Ariel's position of being weak and young. Imagine Shun surviving and becoming the next Maou for the next generation of living beings.
To Ariel, Potimas and the unthankful humanity existed for her to exact her vengeance on.
But what's left for Shun to revenge against? Shiro? He might has a slight chance perhaps. But he has absolutely zero chance against D, the true master mind that got him involved in all this.
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Old 2021-03-01, 04:34   Link #8705
erneiz_hyde
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I meant Maou as a more generic term. And going after Shiro would be good enough for him I think, she's the one that's going to personally murder millions, and I would root for him unironically. Though of course, the story won't be going that way, just a thought exercise.

I do wonder though, if Shiro should just kill everyone instead of just most of them. Maybe her calculations are off and had to kill more than expected, and depending on how many are left alive the resulting condition might just be a slow but certain death for the survivors, especially since she planned to wash her hands clean after all this. If she succeeded in dismantling the system and keeping Sariel alive, Sariel might just risk her life again to try to save everyone left. And then there were none and Shiro leave Sariel and Ariel alone in the whole planet and the story just goes to a higher plane of existence where Shiro now deals with other gods.
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Old 2021-03-01, 04:38   Link #8706
heroeric
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Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
What's our timeline again? A couple decades? or was it a few centuries?
Why was murder necessary again? What's wrong with letting the humans die of old age?
What's stopping a Madoka program (from Madoka Magica) to work? ie. Shiro or anyone else hijacking the system or planting babies in every living being and only taking their lives when they are about to die.
Previously getting a large number of people killed was necessary because the system had a critically low amount of energy and they needed get a large amount of energy in a short amount of time.
A large amount of people dying when the system get shut down is simply due their souls collapsing due to suddenly their losing their skills.
Conflict in general in encouraged by the system because it encourages people to get stronger. And stronger people tend to give the system more energy when they die.
The issue with planting babies would be where the babies come from. Souls already in the system are reaching their limit more people being born would just cause souls to collapse more quickly. If they come from outside the system then you would need to kidnap people from other planets which I would imagine would cause conflict with the people living there such as their gods. I would also imagine that the number of people you would need would be fairly large being in the millions or greater. Also those people won't naturally be part of the system.
Also there wouldn't be a need to kill people when they are about to die since the system should get energy from them regardless of how they die.
I'm not sure what you mean by hijacking the system.


Quote:
Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
I meant Maou as a more generic term. And going after Shiro would be good enough for him I think, she's the one that's going to personally murder millions, and I would root for him unironically. Though of course, the story won't be going that way, just a thought exercise.

I do wonder though, if Shiro should just kill everyone instead of just most of them. Maybe her calculations are off and had to kill more than expected, and depending on how many are left alive the resulting condition might just be a slow but certain death for the survivors, especially since she planned to wash her hands clean after all this. If she succeeded in dismantling the system and keeping Sariel alive, Sariel might just risk her life again to try to save everyone left. And then there were none and Shiro leave Sariel and Ariel alone in the whole planet and the story just goes to a higher plane of existence where Shiro now deals with other gods.
I don't think the plan is to keep Sariel alive. Her soul is already so badly damaged that that's not possible anymore. The goal was prevent it from getting even more damaged to that Sariel can at least reincarnate.
I don't think Ariel will survive much longer after the system end either. Her soul is already reaching her limit. And her body can't naturally survive in a world without the system since it produces toxins that the system naturally removes.

Last edited by heroeric; 2021-03-01 at 04:52.
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Old 2021-03-01, 04:57   Link #8707
erneiz_hyde
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heroeric View Post
Previously getting a large number of people killed was necessary because the system had a critically low amount of energy and they needed get a large amount of energy in a short amount of time.
A large amount of people dying when the system get shut down is simply due their souls collapsing due to suddenly their losing their skills.
Conflict in general in encouraged by the system because it encourages people to get stronger. And stronger people tend to give the system more energy when they die.
The issue with planting babies would be where the babies come from. Souls already in the system are reaching their limit more people being born would just cause souls to collapse more quickly. If they come from outside the system then you would need to kidnap people from other planets which I would imagine would cause conflict with the people living there such as their gods. I would also imagine that the number of people you would need would be fairly large being in the millions or greater. Also those people won't naturally be part of the system.
Also there wouldn't be a need to kill people when they are about to die since the system should get energy from them regardless of how they die.
I'm not sure what you mean by hijacking the system.
removes.
Ah, I meant babies as in Shiro's babies, her little spiderlings. You do know what I meant by Madoka system right? Spoiler, but your own fault for not watching if you haven't already, but Madoka in the end of the anime became a god that visits every single magical girl right before they die and harvest their souls, so they die in peace rather than turning into a monstrous witch. The idea here is the same, Shiro harvest the souls of everyone right before they die (using her babies) so their souls go to her rather than back to the system, effectively hijacking it. But as stated, since our timeline is in months, this idea is scrapped.
But wait, regardless of how they die? I thought people dying and being reborn by the system is what's draining the energy?
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Old 2021-03-01, 05:09   Link #8708
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Ok to be clear the system has a set amount of souls in it. Every time someone dies the soul is damaged by the skills being ripped out of them. This adds energy to the system. The only way to heal the souls is to have them not to incarnate for a time to recover. The system pretty much prevents this by forcing souls to reincanate with little rest. Those from earth are not bound to the system they are only able to interact with it because D created the %I=W skill.

Shiro's plan is to break the system so that the only part that still functions is the part that fixes the planet. It will free all the souls and finally allow those that don't collapse surfing the process to have time to heal. But once the system is broken it can't gain more energy so it must have enough before it is done or planet and everyone on it dies.

If the system is fixed by replacing Sariel then it's a slow death as everyone suffers soul death.

Dismantling the system as is will still cause just as many soul deaths as Shiro's plan but cause all living people to die with the planet.
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Old 2021-03-01, 05:31   Link #8709
erneiz_hyde
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Originally Posted by heroeric View Post
I don't think the plan is to keep Sariel alive. Her soul is already so badly damaged that that's not possible anymore. The goal was prevent it from getting even more damaged to that Sariel can at least reincarnate.
Wait what? if keeping Sariel alive is impossible then we get back to why aren't they helping Dustin with his plans? How can anything Dustin do inconvenience them if Sariel's going to die anyways?
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Old 2021-03-01, 06:18   Link #8710
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Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
Wait what? if keeping Sariel alive is impossible then we get back to why aren't they helping Dustin with his plans? How can anything Dustin do inconvenience them if Sariel's going to die anyways?
From what i understood from the conversation until now, the problem is that Shiro & Ariel want to remove Sariel (who would eventually die) from the Systems influence, so that once the System is fixed, Sariel's soul would eventually have the chance to reincarnate again (once it heals itself over time).

But Dustin's method probably makes it so that Sariel is completely destroyed with no chance of reincarnation.

The problem here is that while Shiro's method seems to be creating a genocide, but in the end, her method would protect the soul of those dead people, and once the system is fixed and the soul's recover their strength, they could be used to reincarnate again.
Waiting for too long or letting the Soul's to die, would just make it that even if the system is fixed, many soul's won't have a chance to reincarnate ever again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shmaster View Post
We don't know what is Dustin's alternative in solving the soul collapse issue.
Ariel isn't liking this, as she suspect Dustin's alternative is going to be something extremely unfavorable towards her or Shiro.
By the way, does Dustin knows about the existence of other World's like Earth, or the fact that Shun and many others have reincarnated from there to here?
Because, i thought that maybe the alternative solution that Dustin might have is actually the sacrifice of another world to restore the energy of this world.
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Old 2021-03-01, 07:29   Link #8711
erneiz_hyde
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Originally Posted by kagato3 View Post
Ok to be clear the system has a set amount of souls in it. Every time someone dies the soul is damaged by the skills being ripped out of them. This adds energy to the system. The only way to heal the souls is to have them not to incarnate for a time to recover. The system pretty much prevents this by forcing souls to reincanate with little rest. Those from earth are not bound to the system they are only able to interact with it because D created the %I=W skill.
Ah right, it's not that their soul is continually getting eroded as long as they are in the system, but that the longer they live the more they get skills so when they die the more their souls get damaged. It's a discrete event rather than continuous. Though this means the immediate danger is not soul death but the planet getting destroyed, because that happens within months.

Is the system not the one managing the reincarnation cycle? If you dismantle it how will the souls reincarnate? Is Shiro making an effort in choosing who she kills because if she kills a soul that is already in their limits then the soul's gone for good right? Or are these souls a lost cause anyway because they wouldn't survive the system shut down? Why did the system need to be shut down completely again? Shiro needs the system to fix the planet right? I assume that takes a while, so all this while Shiro will have to hack the system to prevent it forcibly reincarnating souls she killed? Or is it this hacking that is the partial system shut down which will result in souls collapsing anyway?

I'm starting to think that a revised Dustin plan combined with the Madoka program would be the best of both worlds. Painlessly switch Sariel to Kuro (iirc didn't Kuro want to do this anyway but chose not to out of respect of Sariel's wishes? Why was he called hetare again?), and with immediate planet destruction avoided have Shiro act as the Madoka add-on program so any dying soul rests within her first before going back into the system.
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Old 2021-03-01, 08:50   Link #8712
kagato3
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Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
Ah right, it's not that their soul is continually getting eroded as long as they are in the system, but that the longer they live the more they get skills so when they die the more their souls get damaged. It's a discrete event rather than continuous. Though this means the immediate danger is not soul death but the planet getting destroyed, because that happens within months.

Is the system not the one managing the reincarnation cycle? If you dismantle it how will the souls reincarnate? Is Shiro making an effort in choosing who she kills because if she kills a soul that is already in their limits then the soul's gone for good right? Or are these souls a lost cause anyway because they wouldn't survive the system shut down? Why did the system need to be shut down completely again? Shiro needs the system to fix the planet right? I assume that takes a while, so all this while Shiro will have to hack the system to prevent it forcibly reincarnating souls she killed? Or is it this hacking that is the partial system shut down which will result in souls collapsing anyway?

I'm starting to think that a revised Dustin plan combined with the Madoka program would be the best of both worlds. Painlessly switch Sariel to Kuro (iirc didn't Kuro want to do this anyway but chose not to out of respect of Sariel's wishes? Why was he called hetare again?), and with immediate planet destruction avoided have Shiro act as the Madoka add-on program so any dying soul rests within her first before going back into the system.
the system is forcing the souls in it to unnaturally continually reincarnate on the planet normally souls are reincarnated between all the worlds and there is time between doing so. It also is grinding the souls down as everyone gets skills. Having few skills limits the damage but unless they die as babies there is still some damage. The system needs to be stopped because within a few more incarnations everyone's soul will die. Shiro's plan is to disable all of the system but the part that fixes the planet. It's basically a one shot use as all energy in the system will go to fix the planet and once that's done it's no longer able to gain more energy. So step 1 cause a war to fill up the system. Step 2 break the system so it only has the parts that fix the planet. Step 3 dismantle the system completely. Unfortunately there are a considerable number of souls that are too damaged and would likely collapse if removed from the system this way but it is a bit of a catch 22 as the only way to heal them is to remove them from the system.
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Old 2021-03-01, 08:57   Link #8713
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first and foremost. Shiro doesn't care for the people of the world so why would she care for the souls of the people of that world? Shiro won't go kamidoka on those people. So that plan is impossible. Plus Shiro is just a newbie god. She doesn't know much of the soul to thinker with it. She is just using what's already installed there.

The soul reincarnation is already part of the world before the system is introduced. The system is just using the soul reincarnation process to get the energy needed to fix the world. So even if the system is shut down. The reincarnation process would still works.

Shiro is making an effort to support the souls of the reincarnation because why not? she can and she is supposedly a classmate of them. even if she isn't really. She can spare some of her energy to do so but supporting more of them would just a waste of energy.

Kyouya already question her there when they are revealing all the secrets remain. Shiro can spare some energy for the reincarnation but not for everyone because it would need a huge amount of energy. energy that is needed to fix the planet. Your getting your priorities wrong if you choose the people before the planet because even if massive amount of casualties was done to the people, they would still have a home/planet to return if the planet is fix.

as for the reason on why shiro plan is bad. its not because of the massive death rate. kyouya accepted it. but the problem is the souls of the people are waaaaaaaaaaaaaay to tired that if they ended up dying again without a rest for the souls. they are done for. their souls would collapse. which is why guriguri had made a secret city behind the mountain pass, which was protected by the ice dragon. the people there are the people that had their souls, way to tired to reincarnate again.

again just to make a point. trying to house and save those souls would need a huge amount of energy. and the planet need a huge amount of energy to be fixed. So get the priorities right of fixing the planet before the residents.

again, just to make a point. shiro doesn't care for the residents of that world. heck, she hates them. she is just sparing some energy to house the reincarnates. that's all.

The energy that would fix the planet comes from the system when it would be removed.
but then again, it won't be a enough to be a complete fix, probably. just enough to stop its destruction. you would need a lot of energy for a complete fix and with how much damage the planet had accumulated. it was hard to fix it all.

When shiro had shown the planet to kyouya and vampire girl, in outerspace view. the only portion shown where the people can reside is just only a small portion of it. the other part is barren wasteland or just plain death/desert with lots of cracks in it.

The size of the planet wasn't specially specified on how huge or how small the portion where people can live but just imagine a dead planet.

now the system that D installed should jump start the planet's restoration but it didn't manage to do so.

why?

because of potimas. even if the world is already in a brink of destruction. potimas is still draining the MA energy of the planet.

this disgusting elf had made a barrier around his homebase which was powered by MA energy. Its beyond anyone from the system to be destroyed.

When shiro saw it from afar, she knew it can't be destroyed by anyone aside from gods but when she came close to it, when she is destroying it, she notice how much energy it's been using. she said with how much energy its been using, the world would probably be fix twice over from what I remember.

and guriguri should have seen that barrier but he didn't do anything.

aside from the barrier, the robot army that potimas had created are also made from MA energy. And he created lots of them. Specially the ones meant to kill gods. They would cost a lot more energy.

Energy that should be been used to fix the planet.

Yes. blame potipoti on why the world isn't being fixed.

Lets blame useless guriguri/kuro too on why its still operating.

In the WN, Potimas hidden labs are still running around and still absorbing MA energy. and Kuro didn't even notice. He went and go around destroying it. In LN there where still labs hidden around by potimas and one of those labs have still been operational.

that should say how much energy the world is still being consumed by potimas.

the planet is abused and the residents have also been abused to reincarnate again and again without rest, just to fix the planet.

the planet shouldn't be that damage if guriguri had done his works but he stay behind and respect Sariel, the goddess, wish. he had just become a useless observer.

Now onto Sariel. Just to make a point again. Shiro doesn't care for the residents of that world. Well aside from granny maou. and Sariel should be specially mentioned because Shiro HATES her.

Shiro is just saving her because Maou Ariel wants to save her. Her soul is already damage and she can't reincarnate anymore but she still wish to save her with her dying will/soul. With Ariel caring and taking care of shiro through their travel. Shiro came to care for granny maou too and with her wish saving the goddess. Shiro made plans to save her. And that plan is to destroy the system that she is supporting.

Just to make a point again. Shiro doesn't care for the residents of that world.

Shiro is saving the goddess by removing the system.

but by removing the system, it would take all the skills back to it.

those who have few skills won't feel much when the system is removed from them but to those who had lots of skills. they would die.

if they die, they would reincarnate again but there is the problems of those souls that where too tired to reincarnate. Those who can't reincarnate would just have their souls be destroyed with the system being removed.

Kyouya my man. badass oni that had a respectful ending.
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Old 2021-03-01, 09:30   Link #8714
erneiz_hyde
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Originally Posted by kagato3 View Post
So step 1 cause a war to fill up the system. Step 2 break the system so it only has the parts that fix the planet. Step 3 dismantle the system completely. Unfortunately there are a considerable number of souls that are too damaged and would likely collapse if removed from the system this way but it is a bit of a catch 22 as the only way to heal them is to remove them from the system.
Here, I still don't remember why step 3 is still needed after that step 2.
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Old 2021-03-01, 09:33   Link #8715
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Here, I still don't remember why step 3 is still needed after that step 2.
to free Sariel. The system is useless after step 2 as the planet fix is a 1 and done thing.
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Old 2021-03-01, 10:02   Link #8716
erneiz_hyde
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Ah right, and we assumed Dustin replacing Sariel with Kuro is going to destroy her soul is because of the premise that Sariel will die anyways even when freed from the system. Because if her soul would be safe even when she's going to die anyways, Shiro could just kill her and let her reincarnate immediately and let Kuro take over the system. Chances are changing cores like that wouldn't normally destroy her soul if she willingly step down, but she doesn't want that and that's why they destroy the system. Makes sense, and I was reminded why my impression from when I last left this story was that everyone is a selfish bastard.
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Old 2021-03-01, 10:15   Link #8717
sierra117
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Originally Posted by shmaster View Post
To Ariel, Potimas and the unthankful humanity existed for her to exact her vengeance on.
But what's left for Shun to revenge against? Shiro? He might has a slight chance perhaps.
Not a chance, Shu’s greatest power is a system-bounded plot-armor, while Shiro(half way through mastering her godly powers) had already stand outside the system and stated that she is invincible against anyone within the system
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Old 2021-03-01, 11:19   Link #8718
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Old 2021-03-01, 11:55   Link #8719
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^ The System still has anti-god parts to it. They seem to have been used when the old Hero and old Demon King tries to kill Gyurie (and Sariel re-directed it to attack D).

So in theory Shun could trigger those against Gyurie or Shiro (or Sariel or D) but if he did he'd almost certainly die and it would also almost certainly doom the planet.
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Old 2021-03-01, 13:00   Link #8720
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Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
Ah right, and we assumed Dustin replacing Sariel with Kuro is going to destroy her soul is because of the premise that Sariel will die anyways even when freed from the system. Because if her soul would be safe even when she's going to die anyways, Shiro could just kill her and let her reincarnate immediately and let Kuro take over the system. Chances are changing cores like that wouldn't normally destroy her soul if she willingly step down, but she doesn't want that and that's why they destroy the system. Makes sense, and I was reminded why my impression from when I last left this story was that everyone is a selfish bastard.
I think the issue with replacing Sariel with Kuro is that Kuro is a much weaker god. So he wouldn't be able to last as a core of the system for very long. It's already questionable if Kuro would be able to last long enough for the planet to recover. If they cut that amount of time even more by letting Sariel be replaced early then the chance of the planet being recovered would be even lower.
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