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Old 2021-03-01, 13:48   Link #8721
kagato3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kari-no-sugata II View Post
^ The System still has anti-god parts to it. They seem to have been used when the old Hero and old Demon King tries to kill Gyurie (and Sariel re-directed it to attack D).

So in theory Shun could trigger those against Gyurie or Shiro (or Sariel or D) but if he did he'd almost certainly die and it would also almost certainly doom the planet.
And it is debatable if it would do much to Shiro as the last time it was used with the demonlords power added in it did nothing to D
Quote:
Originally Posted by heroeric View Post
I think the issue with replacing Sariel with Kuro is that Kuro is a much weaker god. So he wouldn't be able to last as a core of the system for very long. It's already questionable if Kuro would be able to last long enough for the planet to recover. If they cut that amount of time even more by letting Sariel be replaced early then the chance of the planet being recovered would be even lower.
Replacing the core also does not adress the real problem, all the souls in the system are on the verge of collapse and they will only get worse if they remain in the system.
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Old 2021-03-01, 14:09   Link #8722
tsunade666
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Kuro doesn't plan to replace sariel to support the system. To kuro, who lost sariel, the planet is useless. He just wants to expand all his energy and use it to try to fix the planet. He plans to sacrifice himself. He doesn't plans to stay that long and just go die after using all his energy.
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Old 2021-03-01, 14:54   Link #8723
kari-no-sugata II
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Originally Posted by kagato3 View Post
And it is debatable if it would do much to Shiro as the last time it was used with the demonlords power added in it did nothing to D
Umm... but well... D's... D. There was a lot of energy in that attack. I dunno what would have happened if D hadn't blocked it. Maybe Japan would have been wiped off the face of the Earth. Or worse.

I'm not saying that such a thing would kill Shiro either, given her hivemind nature. But it would almost certainly cause a lot of negative side effects.


Quote:
Replacing the core also does not adress the real problem, all the souls in the system are on the verge of collapse and they will only get worse if they remain in the system.
Some souls are have already collapsed. Which is why the birth rate is already falling. Which is also why it's actually better for people with a lot of skills to die now - their souls are more likely to survive this way. It's also why Sariel is almost dead and rapidly declining. So yeah, the situation is so bad that many people are literally better off dead, if they value their souls more than their current life.


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Originally Posted by tsunade666 View Post
Kuro doesn't plan to replace sariel to support the system. To kuro, who lost sariel, the planet is useless. He just wants to expand all his energy and use it to try to fix the planet. He plans to sacrifice himself. He doesn't plans to stay that long and just go die after using all his energy.
One thing that seems a bit unclear to me is that Gyurie and Dustin seem to assume that Sariel can hang on for long enough for the planet to be almost fully repaired, allowing Gyurie to do just the last little bit. But Sariel seems to have very little time left so this doesn't seem viable to me. If that's the case then that'll be a much much worse outcome than Shiro's plan.
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Old 2021-03-01, 16:01   Link #8724
erneiz_hyde
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kari-no-sugata II View Post
One thing that seems a bit unclear to me is that Gyurie and Dustin seem to assume that Sariel can hang on for long enough for the planet to be almost fully repaired, allowing Gyurie to do just the last little bit. But Sariel seems to have very little time left so this doesn't seem viable to me. If that's the case then that'll be a much much worse outcome than Shiro's plan.
I don't understand what you mean by this. If they are seeking to replace Sariel why do they need her to hang around any longer? Surely removing her ASAP would be preferable? I don't understand how Kuro replacing Sariel could be bad (assuming Sariel can be removed from the system without destroying her soul), him being there providing energy means less people need to die to safely shut the system down. Shiro needs to kill less and she doesn't need to fight Kuro, then she just needs to deal with Dustin's tantrums when she goes off on her genocide spree but surely she can deal with that better than fighting Kuro.

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Originally Posted by kari-no-sugata II View Post
Some souls are have already collapsed. Which is why the birth rate is already falling. Which is also why it's actually better for people with a lot of skills to die now - their souls are more likely to survive this way. It's also why Sariel is almost dead and rapidly declining. So yeah, the situation is so bad that many people are literally better off dead, if they value their souls more than their current life.
Soul damage happens when they die. If some souls are already at their limit that this is their last chance at life, then they are literally better off staying alive for as long as possible. In this case it's only right to kill the ones that can actually endure the process through reincarnation.

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Originally Posted by sierra117 View Post
Not a chance, Shu’s greatest power is a system-bounded plot-armor, while Shiro(half way through mastering her godly powers) had already stand outside the system and stated that she is invincible against anyone within the system
Something else that is also on my mind is the earthlings's original soul quality. A freaking spider from Earth have enough soul tenacity to it that she can become god (granted, she's part D, but even D is suprised at Kumoko's growth). Could it be that the system is actually holding back the earthlings normal aptitude in magic? Maybe when the system is shut down it is revealed that Shun, as per usual in Narou novels, turns out to be even more of a genius in magic than Shiro is. Who knows, maybe it will then be revealed Earth is where old weary gods have their quiet retirement away from magic and godly stuff or some sort of prison colony for defeated gods and D is their warden.
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Old 2021-03-01, 16:47   Link #8725
heroeric
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Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
I don't understand what you mean by this. If they are seeking to replace Sariel why do they need her to hang around any longer? Surely removing her ASAP would be preferable? I don't understand how Kuro replacing Sariel could be bad (assuming Sariel can be removed from the system without destroying her soul), him being there providing energy means less people need to die to safely shut the system down. Shiro needs to kill less and she doesn't need to fight Kuro, then she just needs to deal with Dustin's tantrums when she goes off on her genocide spree but surely she can deal with that better than fighting Kuro.



Soul damage happens when they die. If some souls are already at their limit that this is their last chance at life, then they are literally better off staying alive for as long as possible. In this case it's only right to kill the ones that can actually endure the process through reincarnation.
Like I said earlier. Kuro wouldn't last very long as a core of the system because he is much weaker the Sariel. And it is already questionable if they keep Sariel till she reaches her limit and then replace her with Kuro if Kuro would last long enough for the system to repair the planet.



The damage to the soul is greater when they forcibly lose their skills when the system shuts down then when they die normally. So the chance of their souls collapsing is lower if they die now then if they are still alive when the system collapses.


Reincarnators have superior souls because they haven't been worn down by repeatedly being reincarnated in a world with the system. Shiro becoming a god is due to a few factors such as her being a genius and have a small part of D soul. It was also speculated that the system was actually an experiment to see if people could become gods.

Last edited by heroeric; 2021-03-01 at 16:59.
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Old 2021-03-01, 16:56   Link #8726
erneiz_hyde
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Originally Posted by heroeric View Post
Like I said earlier. Kuro wouldn't last very long as a core of the system because he is much weaker the Sariel. And it is already questionable if they keep Sariel till she reaches her limit and then replace her with Kuro if Kuro would last long enough for the system to repair the planet.
I'm not sure about that, if Shiro's plan can work with dying Sariel still acting as core all while planet is being repaired surely a fully healthy Kuro even if weaker than Sariel should also be enough to hold it together for a while.
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Old 2021-03-01, 17:04   Link #8727
heroeric
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Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
I'm not sure about that, if Shiro's plan can work with dying Sariel still acting as core all while planet is being repaired surely a fully healthy Kuro even if weaker than Sariel should also be enough to hold it together for a while.
Because Shiro plan is to use all the energy normally used to maintain the system to repair the planet. While the plan to have Kuro replace Sariel is to slowing gather up that energy through normal system operation.
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Old 2021-03-01, 17:21   Link #8728
erneiz_hyde
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Originally Posted by heroeric View Post
Because Shiro plan is to use all the energy normally used to maintain the system to repair the planet. While the plan to have Kuro replace Sariel is to slowing gather up that energy through normal system operation.
That's Dustin's plan. I'm saying combine Shiro's, Dustin's, and Kuro's plan together.
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Old 2021-03-01, 17:40   Link #8729
heroeric
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Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
That's Dustin's plan. I'm saying combine Shiro's, Dustin's, and Kuro's plan together.
I don't think that's possible. Shiro plans is to dismantle the system and use that energy to restore the planet. There no need for anything else. Besides killing off those who have a high chance of their souls collapsing or setting things up for afterwards it's more advantageous to dismantle the system as soon possible since the overall deuteration of souls in the system would increase over time.
Dustin is against dismantling the system because it would cause a large number of people would die which is the core part of Shiro's plan.
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Old 2021-03-01, 17:53   Link #8730
erneiz_hyde
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Originally Posted by heroeric View Post
I don't think that's possible. Shiro plans is to dismantle the system and use that energy to restore the planet. There no need for anything else. Besides killing off those who have a high chance of their souls collapsing or setting things up for afterwards it's more advantageous to dismantle the system as soon possible since the overall deuteration of souls in the system would increase over time.
Dustin is against dismantling the system because it would cause a large number of people would die which is the core part of Shiro's plan.
As kagato above said before, dismantling the system is only to free Sariel after everything else is done. Shiro apparently can damage the system enough that the only part functioning is the planet restoring function. Shiro needs the system to run long enough for the planet to repair itself regardless.
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Old 2021-03-01, 18:02   Link #8731
heroeric
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Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
As kagato above said before, dismantling the system is only to free Sariel after everything else is done. Shiro apparently can damage the system enough that the only part functioning is the planet restoring function. Shiro needs the system to run long enough for the planet to repair itself regardless.
Whether she get freed before or after the system repaired the world doesn't really matter.
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Old 2021-03-01, 18:05   Link #8732
erneiz_hyde
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Originally Posted by heroeric View Post
Whether she get freed before or after the system repaired the world doesn't really matter.
What are you saying? Of course it matters, she's the core, without her the system won't function, and the planet won't get repaired.
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Old 2021-03-01, 18:39   Link #8733
heroeric
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Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
What are you saying? Of course it matters, she's the core, without her the system won't function, and the planet won't get repaired.
But if we go with Shiro's plan there's no need to replace Sariel with Kuro before the system is fully dismantled. Because it won't make any real difference.
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Old 2021-03-01, 18:45   Link #8734
Rasty
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This discussion is tiring to read.

So for a few clarifications. Shiro is much nicer than she shows at first glance, however as a god she has a different viewpoint. She sees people's identity as their souls, not current lives, so she takes death much less seriously, but much more seriously the soul death that some people there disregard. Death is from her view like an injury and short sleep, but soul collapse is the final true death.

D is vastly more powerful than all the other characters in the book combined (and even a fragment of her soul is OP by itself, thus giving Shiro's soul the strength to survive growing into a god), Sariel is a league below, but it would still take dozens/hundreds of Kuro's to match her power/energy. On the other hand, Shiro became god simply by absorbing the stored power in one Potima's facility, which means sacrificing her and Kuro (who has about the same) would not do much.

The reason to dismantle the system is to use in one burst all of the power used to maintain it to mostly heal the planet. And by the way, despite Potimas screwing things up the planet is still in much better shape than when the system started and half of it was straight up missing (it was collapsing as a celestial body, not just being a dried-up desert).

Also if Sariel is removed from the system now she will die, but her soul won't collapse.
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Old 2021-03-01, 19:08   Link #8735
erneiz_hyde
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Originally Posted by heroeric View Post
But if we go with Shiro's plan there's no need to replace Sariel with Kuro before the system is fully dismantled. Because it won't make any real difference.
It would give more time for Ariel to be together with Sariel, satisfy Kuro's desire to die for Sariel, and save a few million people from being killed by Shiro. Quite the difference I'd say.

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Originally Posted by Rasty View Post
...Death is from her view like an injury and short sleep, but soul collapse is the final true death.

...

On the other hand, Shiro became god simply by absorbing the stored power in one Potima's facility, which means sacrificing her and Kuro (who has about the same) would not do much.
That "not much" is still worth millions of lives not having to die as fuel for the system. And if she's not that averse to death then she really needs to contribute to this herself, otherwise she's just a hypocrite. Kuro in this regards is much better.

Quote:
The reason to dismantle the system is to use in one burst all of the power used to maintain it to mostly heal the planet. .
I see that even people that are still currently following this understand things differently, because what you and kagato said are different. Kagato said Shiro will leave the planet function intact, while dismantling the system to burst heal the planet means you don't actually need the system to heal the planet, the planet will heal itself as long as there is energy laying around. So which is it exactly?
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Old 2021-03-01, 19:33   Link #8736
heroeric
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Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
It would give more time for Ariel to be together with Sariel, satisfy Kuro's desire to die for Sariel, and save a few million people from being killed by Shiro. Quite the difference I'd say.


That "not much" is still worth millions of lives not having to die as fuel for the system. And if she's not that averse to death then she really needs to contribute to this herself, otherwise she's just a hypocrite. Kuro in this regards is much better.



I see that even people that are still currently following this understand things differently, because what you and kagato said are different. Kagato said Shiro will leave the planet function intact, while dismantling the system to burst heal the planet means you don't actually need the system to heal the planet, the planet will heal itself as long as there is energy laying around. So which is it exactly?
It won't save more people because the main cause of death is from people forcibly losing their skills. It doesn't matter if the system has more energy when this happens because those people are still going to die. Sariel has already reached the point where she won't survive. So she will still die even if she is taken out a bit earlier.

If Shiro sacrifices herself her soul would die which would mean real death. How does that make her a hypocrite,
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Old 2021-03-01, 20:43   Link #8737
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Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
As kagato above said before, dismantling the system is only to free Sariel after everything else is done. Shiro apparently can damage the system enough that the only part functioning is the planet restoring function. Shiro needs the system to run long enough for the planet to repair itself regardless.
Ok I understand where your misunderstanding is. Once Shiro breaks the system everyone's removed from it the system killing a bunch of people (many by soul collapse ) and it stops being able to gather energy and all the energy in it is immediately used to fix the planet because all the other functions of it are no longer working. This is what Dustin does not want to do. Once it's broken there's no need for it to exist as it can't gain more energy so it can be dismantled to free Sariel.

There is one being in the books stronger than D, Meido the maid (named after the Buddhist underworld)
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Old 2021-03-02, 02:40   Link #8738
erneiz_hyde
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Originally Posted by heroeric View Post
If Shiro sacrifices herself her soul would die which would mean real death. How does that make her a hypocrite,
Why exactly is her death a real death but not her victims? Sariel apparently can still reincarnate, why not Shiro?

But okay, apparently the majority of death will be from the system shut down? Then yeah, Shiro shouldn't stop at just killing most of them, she should just kill every single living being. If you're going to inflict soul death anyway then at least have the galls to do it by your own hands instead of letting the system crash do it. If the people loses the system on top of being significantly reduced in number while still having to defend themselves against monsters, they are all going to die eventually anyways especially if Shiro washes her hands cleans after that.
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Old 2021-03-02, 02:50   Link #8739
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Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
Why exactly is her death a real death but not her victims? Sariel apparently can still reincarnate, why not Shiro?

But okay, apparently the majority of death will be from the system shut down? Then yeah, Shiro shouldn't stop at just killing most of them, she should just kill every single living being. If you're going to inflict soul death anyway then at least have the galls to do it by your own hands instead of letting the system crash do it. If the people loses the system on top of being significantly reduced in number while still having to defend themselves against monsters, they are all going to die eventually anyways especially if Shiro washes her hands cleans after that.
Because she doesn’t need to?
Unlike Sariel, Shiro hold no affection for this world people aside from some selected few, she has no reason to give up her life for a bunch of strangers, the fact that she go out of her ways to ensure that not all of them are permanently death should be good enough
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Old 2021-03-02, 03:41   Link #8740
Huh...?
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Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
Why exactly is her death a real death but not her victims? Sariel apparently can still reincarnate, why not Shiro?
Because her "SOUL" would die.
Same in the case of Sariel as well. If things are allowed to continue as they are and Dustin's plan is used, Sariel would not only die physical but her "SOUL" would die as well.

And if a "SOUL" dies, then there is no chance of a Reincarnation.

What Shiro is trying to achieve here is to stop the "SOUL DEATH" of as many people as possible.
But Shun is trying to save the current Living, which would probably result in the death of their Soul eventually (what's the use of saving the living, if they won't have the option of every reincarnating again).

Aka., Shun is stuck at the present and the "material" aspect, while Shiro is thinking somewhat of the future and the "spiritual" aspect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
But okay, apparently the majority of death will be from the system shut down? Then yeah, Shiro shouldn't stop at just killing most of them, she should just kill every single living being. If you're going to inflict soul death anyway then at least have the galls to do it by your own hands instead of letting the system crash do it. If the people loses the system on top of being significantly reduced in number while still having to defend themselves against monsters, they are all going to die eventually anyways especially if Shiro washes her hands cleans after that.
Its not that majority of the Soul's would die because of the System being Shutdown.
They would die when the System tries to take the energy (by taking the Skills) from them. Because forcefully taking the energy (aka., skills) from the Soul's damages them. And many Soul's are already on the verge of collapse already (and many have collapsed already).

What Shiro is trying to do is kill as many people a possible at once to overload the System with enough power that makes it shutdown its "forced immediate reincarnation" function (which is damaging the Souls), while keeping the "World Repair" function of intact (though this act would make some souls to go through Soul Death, as they were already on the brink of being destroyed and wouldn't have survived even if they had died normally).
And once the "forced immediate reincarnation" function shuts down, the excess energy in the System would get automatically diverted to the "World Repair" function, and once the World is repaired, Shiro would break the System, to make the World free from it.

Sariel could be taken out of the System anytime possible. But she is currently connected to that World, so if they take out Sariel before fixing the collapse issue of the World; Sariel who is on the verge of death would die and not be able to reincarnate (since the place she was supposed to reincarnate doesn't exists anymore).
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