(L) Madoka Magica Manga Discussion (may have anime spoilers)

[Snork]

One thing I realized from reading this chapter is that during Sayaka and Kamijou scene, Madoka state that she made it (the event) this way so that she can save Sayaka from turning into a witch. The event that she changed was probably how Kamijou never hurt his hand to begin with and thus making his relationship with Sayaka not happening...

Wait, what? Hanokage's getting ideas again...
I'm used to interpeting Madoka's apology in the anime as not using her wish to save Sayaka (that would destroy ANY kind of future all right, since Madoka would have become Gretchen and we all saw Homura lost the will to make new timelines). Any details referring to Madoka pulling off God-like manipulation of the world break upon a question - how can she do that? She didn't wish to be a goddess and have conscious reality-warping powers, that's for sure.

Of course, there's always the point about acquired powers which are related to the wish made (Homura's time stop, Sayaka's fast recovery, Kyouko's hinted mind control/illusions/whatever). It would be an interesting point to explore regarding Madoka, but I'm notsure where to start. Even her status is abnormal - on one hand, she's a magical girl, on the other hand, she's no longer bound to time and physical matters, and in the mundane universe, her contract has technically expired the moment she turned into a witch.

Sigh, one thing 4chan was right about: Japanese interviewers seem to tiptoe around the show too much. There are many more interesting questions to ask Magica Quartet. Until then, speculah and WMG is our fate. And I'm too cautious about Hanokage's interpretation since she's known to have interpreted things differently from canon already.

[Sixth]

Akemi Homura is so hot..in this manga...especially in chapter 12...

[Riga92]

Chapter 12 is finally out: http://shinitan.wordpress.com/2011/0...ro-vol1-batch/

Pretty much the same as the anime, but with one major difference. The epilogue is different. Instead of Homura continuing to fight the demons in a desert, we see that she finally reunites with Madoka in Magical Girl Heaven. She's back in her Moemura appearance, and she ask Madoka if she's alright with being friends with her. Madoka tells her that they've always been friends, now and forever. And then they walk off into the light.....o god my tears can't stop flowing

The manga makes me wonder what it would be like if this scene was used in the anime instead of the desert scene.

[Snork]

what it would be like if this scene was used in the anime instead of the desert scene.

Don't take it for black humour, but I think Japan would be flooded again - by the audience's tears this time.

[Kagayaki]

See, Gen, that's how you do a heart-warming epilogue

[Scarletknive]

Originally Posted by Snork

Don't take it for black humour, but I think Japan would be flooded again - by the audience's tears this time.

Other country also get affected by the flood because some other people also got watch Madoka...if Gen makes an alternate ending in BD/DVD(meaning 2 episode 12). Then i think...yea.(My house will be greatly flooded, dunno what happen to japan,maybe other countries also, America too)

[MakubeX2]

Just a head's up :-



Vol.1 of the first official authorised oversea-chinese release under publisher Tong Li will be slated to released on August 11th in Taiwan.

Any official English seems unlikely under the current condition of most American's Manga Publisher.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Hagoshod

TV ending rant ahoy:

Spoiler:

When the show's entire point fundamental changes from "All wishes backfire; No exceptions" to "Oh but there's this 'Karmic Destiny' thing we just pulled out of our ass that can create an exception to the rule" in a single line of dialogue, yeah, that's coming out of nowhere.

Spoiler for Argument on wishes; major Madoka spoilers:

But the wishes didn't backfire. They accomplished precisely what the wisher asked for.

1) Mami did get to live a bit longer. That's essentially all she wished for. To be healed from her accident-based mortal wounds. Well, wish accomplished. The wish had nothing to do with Mami getting killed by Charlotte, or with her being lonely prior to that. Losing her parents in that accident was likely the main reason why she was lonely, but that lost had nothing to do with the wish.

2) Kamijo's hand was healed. Legitimately, genuinely healed. No monkey's paw catch whatsoever. The guy has his music career back. This is a point I made over and over again to other viewers who were insistent on the "All wishes backfire; No exceptions" interpretation. The only backfire here is that Sayaka made a dangerous assumption in thinking that healed Kamijo would eventually become her boyfriend. That has nothing to do with the wish system itself, and everything to do with the person making the wish (and keep in mind that I'm writing this as somebody who likes Sayaka a lot). The wish itself was granted perfectly fairly, accomplishing precisely what Sayaka actually asked for explicitly.

3) Kyoko's father did get far more people coming to his church to listen to his sermons. That's basically all that Kyoko wished for. This wish was bound to have negative repercussions because no sincere leader wants literally mindless followers or listeners. Again, the negative repercussions here had nothing to do with the wish system, and everything to do with the person making the wish (i.e. Kyoko wasn't mature enough yet to realize that her father wouldn't want followers at any and all expenses). Edit: Well, it also had to do with Kyoko's father snapping too easily, in fairness.

4) Homura did get multiple opportunities to protect Madoka. She did get to relive her first meeting with Madoka over and over again, until Madoka was successfully "protected", just as Homura wished. Homura protected Madoka from becoming a Puella Magi without knowing the full scope of what the Puella Magi system entails. Homura's wish enabled Madoka to make a fully informed choice. It's like the difference between a person signing a contract without seeing the fine print, and a person being shown the fine print before the contract is signed. In one case, a person is victimized. In the other case, it's a fair deal.

5) And we all know how Madoka's wish played out.


This is what Madoka Magica always said about wishes, right to the end: "Be careful what you wish for".

But that's not the same as "All wishes backfire; No exceptions".

No, it simply means that when and if you choose a wish, you should choose it carefully. It is possible to choose a careful wish, and hence have it pay off for you.

Gen was never implying that it's bad for people to have personal wishes (the obvious thematic conclusion that would arise from 'all wishes backfire, no exceptions'). Just that you have to be crystal clear about what you really want to accomplish with your wish, and then formulate your wish (or, alternatively, your goal) based on what it is that you really want.

[Hagoshod]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

spoilers

Do I really have to point this out?

Spoiler:

1. We don't even know what Mami actually wished for, but in all probability her wish was not "Let me live so a giant monster can bite my head off in an even more horrifying way to die." By the definition of the word "precisely," Mami did not get precisely what she wished for. For that to occur, she would have had to have phrased her wish exactly how it turned out.

2. Sayaka's wish was not "Heal one person's injury so I can turn into an uber demon and bring suffering to countless others in a gross display of unbalanced karma." Sayaka did not get precisely what she wished for.

3. Kyoko's wish was not "Turn everyone in my dad's clergy into mindless followers." You know the rest.

And Kyoko did the whole unique Soul Gem Overload thing and blew herself up in front of Homura... why? From a storytelling standpoint, it seemingly happened in that specific fashion get Homura to say "Hey, there's a method I haven't tried using against Walpurgisnacht yet!" But then Homura never even remotely thinks about it again, allowing Kyoko's sacrifice to fade into utter meaninglessness. derp.

4. Homura's is the easiest one to shred to pieces because she didn't even receive her lopsided half of the bargain. Her exact wish was "Give me the power to protect Madoka so she doesn't have to protect me." This is a clear-cut case of show's system (even for the cruel and twisted thing that it is) failing to reach any sort of logical conclusion. oops?

5. Madoka got exactly what she always intended with no unplanned drawbacks or regrets. Complete and absolute violation of the show's underlying principles.

And then the ending throws the show's other established doctrine of don't listen to Kyubey's advice because he is a direct metaphor for temptation and he will always screw you over out the window. Kyoko is the only one who ever firmly outsmarts the system on her own natural ability. And, no, there is absolutely nothing natural about Madoka "outsmarting" Kyubey when she was only able to do so because a KARMIC DESTINY addendum conveniently came out of nowhere and let her change the fabric of reality however she pleased.

This is what Madoka Magica always said about wishes, right to the end: "Be careful what you wish for".

But then it abruptly swerved into

Spoiler:

Don't be careful what you wish for because GOD will just show up to bail you out.

at the last possible minute.


I swear I'm going to need to watch Pan's Labyrinth like four times before I calm down from this.

[Akashin]

Uh... what?

Originally Posted by Hagoshod

Spoiler:

1. We don't even know what Mami actually wished for, but in all probability her wish was not "Let me live so a giant monster can bite my head off in an even more horrifying way to die." By the definition of the word "precisely," Mami did not get precisely what she wished for.

Spoiler:

So if I was dying and wished for my wounds to be healed, and then died in a completely unrelated incident years down the road, that means my wish backfired?

Unless Mami's wish was, "I don't ever want to die," or something similar (which as you yourself said, we have no way of knowing the exact wording, only the general purpose of the wish), I have no idea why her being killed by Charlotte is a backfiring of her wish.

Spoiler:

2. Sayaka's wish was not "Heal one person's injury so I can turn into an uber demon and bring suffering to countless others in a gross display of unbalanced karma." Sayaka did not get precisely what she wished for.

Spoiler:

Again, how is turning into Oktavia a flaw in her wish? It has absolutely nothing to do with the wish itself, and everything to do with the Puella Magi system itself.

Spoiler:

3. Kyoko's wish was not "Turn everyone into mindless followers." You know the rest.

And Kyoko specifically blew herself up in front of Homura... why? I assumed it was to get Homura to say "Hey, there's a method I haven't tried using against Walpurgisnacht yet!" But then Homura never even remotely thinks about it again, allowing Kyoko's sacrifice to effectively fade into meaninglessness. derp.

Spoiler:

No, that was not Kyoko's wish; that was part of why her lack of understanding made her wish fail. It didn't backfire out of some written law that it had to, it just backfired because she lacked the knowledge to make a more carefully thought out wish.

And what, exactly, was Kyoko's suicide strike supposed to show Homura? That the best way to take out Walpurgisnacht is to throw her life away to do it, and run the risk of it not working/Madoka dying immediately after anyway? Seriously, I don't get where you're going with that.

And for the record, Kyoko didn't suicide attack for Homura's sake. She did it for Sayaka, and a bit for herself.

Spoiler:

4. Homura's is the easiest one to shred to pieces because she didn't even receive her lopsided half of the bargain. Her exact wish was "Give me the power to protect Madoka so she doesn't have to protect me." This is a clear-cut case of show's system (even for the cruel and twisted thing that it is) failing to reach any sort of logical conclusion. oops?

Spoiler:

And she did protect Madoka. Or did you not see the four (seen; Oriko confirms there were indeed more) timelines she spent doing exactly that? Her wish was to redo their meeting, and to protect Madoka; she did both. What happened after that had nothing to do with the wish itself.

Spoiler:

5. Madoka got exactly what she intended with absolutely no unplanned drawbacks or regrets. Complete and absolute violation of the show's underlying principles.

Not to mention, the ending throws the show's other established doctrine of don't listen to Kyubey's advice because he is a direct metaphor for temptation and he will always screw you over out the window.

Spoiler:

And so did everybody else. But if you're going to call events that happened as a indirect result of making a wish a "backfiring", then wouldn't the existence of those demons in her new world count as that as well? Surely if Oktavia qualifies, so do they. =/

And how does the ending go against the idea of listening to Kyubey's advice? I'm seriously lost there.

I get why one might be displeased with the ending; your mileage will definitely vary on that. But to call the ending a complete betrayal of the principles the story had been showing until that point, when in fact the ending was meant to show what happens when you do show proper care for what you wish for, is just wrong.

[Hagoshod]

Let me keep this simple:

Originally Posted by Akashin

But to call the ending a complete betrayal of the principles the story had been showing until that point, when in fact the ending was meant to show what happens when you do show proper care for what you wish for, is just wrong.

Are you suggesting that in the thousands of years the MG system has existed, since the time man has evolved out of his original cave dwelling ways, there hasn't been a single young girl who was as much of a carefully-thinking, self-sacrificing idealist as Madoka? After ages and ages of MG wishes being plagued by monumental injustice, it took a random Japanese schoolgirl somewhere around the span of three weeks to figure out how to revise the system?

Because, if you are, how can you not see how many things are wrong about that conclusion?

And it's not just that. Once again, Madoka is not just a really, really, really careful thinker. By the story's own admission, her wish was only feasible because a bullshit rule change came out of nowhere at the last second and was required to work in tandem with the fact that she's a really, really, really careful thinker.

[Akashin]

Originally Posted by Hagoshod

Are you suggesting that in the thousands of years the MG system has existed, since the time man has evolved out of his original cave dwelling ways, there hasn't been a single young girl who was as much of a carefully-thinking, self-sacrificing idealist as Madoka? After ages and ages of MG wishes being plagued by monumental injustice, it took a random Japanese schoolgirl somewhere around the span of three months to figure out there was a better way?

Because, if you are, how can you not see how many things are wrong about that conclusion?

And it's not just that. Once again, Madoka is not just a really, really, really careful thinker. By the story's own admission, her wish was only feasible because a bullshit rule change came out of nowhere at the last second and was required to work in tandem with the fact that she's a really, really, really careful thinker.

When did I say Madoka was the only person to make a carefully thought out wish? She is the only one we see do so, but I see absolutely no reason to assume that she is the first to do so. But I don't see what point knowing that serves, really.

And the rule change wasn't out of left field; not really, anyway. We got several (two off of the top of my head, maybe more) hints at Madoka's potential being godlike in nature, although she always assumed Kyubey was exaggerating. The only thing that changed was that we learned that she quite literally was godlike in potential (although I never saw any reason to believe Kyubey was at all exaggerating), and we learned why that was. How is that out of nowhere?

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by Hagoshod

Let me keep this simple:



Are you suggesting that in the thousands of years the MG system has existed, since the time man has evolved out of his original cave dwelling ways, there hasn't been a single young girl who was as much of a carefully-thinking, self-sacrificing idealist as Madoka? After ages and ages of MG wishes being plagued by monumental injustice, it took a random Japanese schoolgirl somewhere around the span of three months to figure out there was a better way?

Because, if you are, how can you not see how many things are wrong about that conclusion?

And it's not just that. Once again, Madoka is not just a really, really, really careful thinker. By the story's own admission, her wish was only feasible because a bullshit rule change came out of nowhere at the last second and was required to work in tandem with the fact that she's a really, really, really careful thinker.

Yes? Why not? For one thing, people willing to actually trade their lives for the sake of others, completely selflessly, are actually pretty rare. That kind of sacrifice isn't something to be made flippantly, you know. And the thing is, the reason why Madoka received the unique opportunity to make a carefully worded and thought out wish is because Homura forced her to--by repeatedly interrupting her attempts to contract until Madoka was absolutely damn certain about what she really wanted to do. Your disproportionate sense of disbelief has no basis at all.

[Hagoshod]

Originally Posted by Akashin

When did I say Madoka was the only person to make a carefully thought out wish?

Here:

Originally Posted by Akashin

when in fact the ending was meant to show what happens when you do show proper care for what you wish for, is just wrong.

By saying "when you do show proper care for what you wish for" in this context, you're implying Madoka was the first person in history to ever show proper care for what she wished for.

Originally Posted by Akashin

And the rule change wasn't out of left field; not really, anyway. We got several (two off of the top of my head, maybe more) hints at Madoka's potential being godlike in nature, although she always assumed Kyubey was exaggerating. The only thing that changed was that we learned that she quite literally was godlike in potential (although I never saw any reason to believe Kyubey was at all exaggerating), and we learned why that was. How is that out of nowhere?

It comes out of nowhere because it revolves around Kyubey saying Madoka has God powers. A character saying someone arbitrary has God powers, when nobody else holds this ability and it's never properly explained (turn back a page if you haven't seen me criticize every aspect of episode 10's conclusions), establishes absolutely nothing.

If this had been a brainless Magical Girl series played straight, I wouldn't have a problem with this. Certain female characters possessing unrivaled magical potential "just because" happens all the time in this genre. However, when something is critically acclaimed as a deep and tightly written deconstruction of Magical Girl stories and tries to get away with the same cheesiness, I'm going to have a field day with it.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Yes? Why not? For one thing, people willing to actually trade their lives for the sake of others, completely selflessly, are actually pretty rare. That kind of sacrifice isn't something to be made flippantly, you know.

There's a difference between "rare" and "non-existent until one oddball occurrence in 2011."

And the thing is, the reason why Madoka received the unique opportunity to make a carefully worded and thought out wish is because Homura forced her to--by repeatedly interrupting her attempts to contract until Madoka was absolutely damn certain about what she really wanted to do.

And that was all contingent on a radically new interpretation of the show's rules that came up only 20 minutes before Madoka made her wish.

Homura forced her to do nothing. The only reason Homura didn't just set her clock back and do the same old same old while she was lying there with her ankle buried in rubble was because Kyubey had literally just finished bringing up the "Karmic Destiny" ultimatum out of nowhere to conveniently block that option.

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by Hagoshod

There's a difference between "rare" and "non-existent until one oddball occurrence in 2011."

Why? Even if there happened to be another good-hearted/self-deprecating girl like Madoka in earlier times, it's certainly believable that none of them had the opportunity to fully realize the scope and nature of the mahou shoujo/witch system without the aid of someone like Homura.

And that was all contingent on a radically new interpretation of the show's rules that came up only 20 minutes before Madoka made her wish.

Homura forced her to do nothing. The only reason Homura didn't just set her clock back and do the same old same old while she was lying there with ankle buried in rubble was because Kyubey had literally just finished bringing up the "Karmic Destiny" ultimatum out of nowhere to conveniently block that option.

That's not a rule change, and doesn't have anything to do with anything anyhow. What Kyuubey told Homura wasn't an 'ultimatum', it was just an ugly truth to try to make Homura fall into despair faster. The reason Homura stopped was that she gave up emotionally on saving Madoka; not because continuing on had somehow become automatically bad or no longer possible. The point also being, of course, that in the first place, it must be Madoka who ultimately makes and takes responsibility for her own decisions.

Also, here's a hint: Kyuubey tells every Mahou Shoujo that they can have anything they wish for, not just Madoka. It's not that Madoka has god powers that somehow enable her to wish for things that other Puella Magi couldn't; it's just that Madoka can pour more energy into her wish without burning out her soul gem. Madoka turns into a witch almost immediately after making her wish in both the 'fourth' and 'fifth' timelines, so it's not actually like Madoka's gigantic soul gem ultimately really saved anything; in actuality, it's only the fact that Madoka's wish was itself to prevent the birth of witches that allowed her to work things out in the end.

[Hagoshod]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Why?

Because the notion that it took thousands of years for Einstein x 1000000000 to appear in the form of a single school girl is absolutely ridiculous. That's why.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Even if there happened to be another good-hearted/self-deprecating girl like Madoka in earlier times, it's certainly believable that none of them had the opportunity to fully realize the scope and nature of the mahou shoujo/witch system without the aid of someone like Homura.

Except
1. Most of the ancient Magical Girls Madoka visited were obviously aware they were doomed to become Witches.
2. Homura didn't actually *teach* Madoka anything. Everything Madoka knows came from observing the downfall of Sayaka, a standard Magical Girl from her own universe.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

What Kyuubey told Homura wasn't an 'ultimatum', it was just an ugly truth to try to make Homura fall into despair faster.

An incredibly convenient ugly truth that was dropped into the conversation for the sole purpose of creating an obstacle.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

The reason Homura stopped was that she gave up emotionally on saving Madoka; not because continuing on had somehow become automatically bad or no longer possible.

No. Absolutely and utterly no.

You're either forgetting why Homura is actually in despair in that scene, or you're ignoring it because it contradicts your argument. In any case, please recall that Homura was at first all like "Well this sucks."



And then she thinks to herself, "Psst. Screw it. I'll just go back and try again."



But then she abruptly STOPS! And she does so solely because she feels...





So, yeah, the show's own canon defeats your entire case. The ONLY reason she won't time travel again is because Kyubey gave her a contrived piece of information that forbids her from doing so.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Also, here's a hint: Kyuubey tells every Mahou Shoujo that they can have anything they wish for, not just Madoka. It's not that Madoka has god powers that somehow enable her to wish for things that other Puella Magi couldn't

It's like I'm debating with someone who didn't even watch the show.

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by Hagoshod

Because the notion that it took thousands of years for Einstein x 1000000000 to appear in the form of a single school girl is absolutely ridiculous. That's why.

Madoka is hardly portrayed as an 'Einstein' . As has been said a number of times now, the advantage Madoka was afforded was her circumstances.

Except
1. Most of the ancient Magical Girls Madoka visited were obviously aware they were doomed to become Witches.
2. Homura didn't actually *teach* Madoka anything. Everything Madoka knows came from observing the downfall of Sayaka, a standard Magical Girl from her own universe.

1. Prove this. I've seen nobody else ever make this assumption at all.
2. Sayaka's downfall was unusual in the first place. Not many mahou shoujo are crazy enough to try throwing their Soul Gems off a bridge. Also, it is Kyuubey who provides a fair degree of the information that ultimately led Madoka towards her solution. The only reason Kyuubey ever said so much was precisely because Homura kept warning her, thus forcing Kyuubey to provide ever more information and justifications.

An incredibly convenient ugly truth that was dropped into the conversation for the sole purpose of creating an obstacle.

It's hardly an obstacle. If Homura believed she could ever actually defeat WalpurgisNacht, then Madoka gaining greater magical potential is completely inconsequential.

No. Absolutely and utterly no.

You're either forgetting why Homura is actually in despair in that scene, or you're ignoring it because it contradicts your argument. In any case, please recall that Homura was at first all like "Well this sucks."


And then she thinks to herself, "Psst. Screw it. I'll just go back and try again."


But then she abruptly STOPS! And she does so solely because she feels...


So, yeah, the show's own canon defeats your entire case. The ONLY reason she won't time travel again is because Kyubey gave her a contrived piece of information that forbids her from doing so.

lrn to logic. "Madoka's fate deepens" by itself doesn't have anything to do with anything. The only reason why "Madoka's fate deepens" matters is because "No matter how many times I try, I can't beat it." Because Homura is unable to achieve her desired outcome, that's why continuing on will only make things worse. Once WalpurgisNacht is actually defeated, however, "Madoka's fate deepens" becomes utterly irrelevant. That is why, Homura stopping had everything to do with giving up on defeating WalpurgisNacht, and only tertiarily with Kyuubey's words to her. After all, she did have to be completely beat up and humiliated by WalpurgisNacht before she started entertaining the notion, right? Instead of just diving into despair immediately after Kyuubey gave her his hypothesis. Initially, Homura didn't even care.

Besides, why is this information 'contrived' in the first place? It's perfectly consistent and believable with the rest of the show. Very fitting, you could even say. Wouldn't it make sense that a witch's power, which comes from grief, would be based on the sum of the misfortune they are fated to suffer? There is no need to stretch our suspensions of disbelief at all.

It's like I'm debating with someone who didn't even watch the show.

Have you ever heard Kyuubey say, "Your wish cannot be granted"? Every time a magical girl asks "Is it possible for me to wish for [such and such]" he goes "Your Soul Gem has the power to do so". The effectiveness of Madoka's wish has nothing to do with the size of her soul gem. The only thing the size actually effects is: her power as a magical girl; her power as a witch; and the amount that Kyuubey drools over it.

[Akashin]

Originally Posted by Hagoshod

By saying "when you do show proper care for what you wish for" in this context, you're implying Madoka was the first person in history to ever show proper care for what she wished for.

I don't see how what I said implies anything of the sort. Of the characters in the show, Madoka is the first one we see to be given the time/opportunity to make a carefully thought out wish. Whether anybody before her was lucky enough to get the same chance is entirely irrelevant.

It comes out of nowhere because it revolves around Kyubey saying Madoka has God powers. A character saying someone arbitrary has God powers, when nobody else holds this ability and it's never properly explained (turn back a page if you haven't seen me criticize every aspect of episode 10's conclusions), establishes absolutely nothing.

If this had been a brainless Magical Girl series played straight, I wouldn't have a problem with this. Certain female characters possessing unrivaled magical potential "just because" happens all the time in this genre. However, when something is critically acclaimed as a deep and tightly written deconstruction of Magical Girl stories and tries to get away with the same cheesiness, I'm going to have a field day with it.

Except it wasn't, "Just because." You not being able to buy the explanation they gave isn't the same as there not being an explanation. If you don't like how they explained it, that's perfectly fine; I'm not out to change your opinion, and I doubt I could even if I was trying to do so. But the explanation is there and, as Sol said, it makes sense with the rest of the series.

Anyway, Sol covered everything I didn't. So I'll leave it at this.

[Kimidori]

The series has been licensed in the US by Yen Press, with the first volume being released in May 2012.
Official page for US manga release

[Kirito]

The Puella Magi Madoka Magica franchise is creating another manga series.

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news...a-magica-manga