Japan makes downloading pirated content a prison-worthy offense

[Ithekro]

In many case, it is download it, or never see it at all. Because it is something one would normally just watch on TV once, then never really watch it again. Paying upwards of $700 for a series you plan to watch once on TV because you do not have any other possible access to it, when it is avalible normally on TV in another country, is not a viable model.

There are plenty of TV series (if I still watched television) that I would watch once and probably not watch that episode again. I might still watch the show, I wouldn't need to see the episodes again for any reason. Similar to anime in many cases. If it was possible to see it via normal cable TV, they would be watched once, and maybe not recorded at all (depending on the time the show was on) and then never watched again.

One does not normally buy a series disc by disc as it come out to watch it weekly if one has no intension of keeping it and watching them again. Especially if said discs are high cost plus high shipping.

At least not when there is an alternative. Before the internet was fast enough, there wasn't an option. If you wanted to see an anime, you either needed to know someone, or wait for something to appear in a retail store. Sometimes you would not have even known a show existed at all until you saw it in the Suncoast or Blockbuster or whatever. If it was at a Blockbuster, you could rent it. If it was at Suncoast, you would need to think if it was worth the money to buy it at all. But both options were cheaper than current Japanese BD prices. When those options are not around, then what?

[hyl]

I am not saying that people should not download things at all (since i am playing the devil's advocate here), but i am just disagreeing on you saying that downloading is free and it cannot be compared to stealing (on the first page, which started this argument), despite that animes are not easily accesible to foreign people.

Also lots of people who buy discs in this forum don't actually buy the discs to watch it (my entire blu-ray collection of Mashiro iro symphony is still unopened, also many of my eroge collections are still nicely shrinkwrapped in my closet), but rather as a collection. I think it's in japan probably the same for late night anime shows , although there are people there who buy it for the extras/collectibles inside.

[Ithekro]

I still have the last several episodes of Galaxy Railways in their packaging, as well as the Star Trek Animated Series still wrapped up. For Galaxy Railways I just never got around to watching the rest of it. For Star Trek, I have all of them on VHS already from when they ran on the Sci-fi Channel.

But for things like say Sailor Moon. I watched those once. I've not really gone back to watch them again (save for the SMA group's version of them because its funny). Or Excel Saga for that matter. I watched it all once and never went back. Or probably a dozen or so other series that I saw once in Japanese and never bothered to see again. They didn't warrent owning as I'm not that much of a collector.

I didn't even finish Legend of the Galactic Heroes (long show). I think I made it through three seasons before I stopped.

Azumanga Diaoh got me to buy the manga series in total rather than get the episodes. So each their own I suppose.

But then I don't watch that many new series per season anyway. I think the most I was watching from one season was four. Most of the time it is one or two with maybe an old series or two I find to watch as well. And that is if I even watch any to begin with (I don't think I watch any new shows this last season even though I was going to watch Hyouka, I never go around to it.) Last new series I watch was Mouretsu Pirates and Space Battleship Yamato 2199 (which is still ongoing).

[NinjaRealist]

Originally Posted by Sumeragi

I consider that law to be one of the most responsible ones, and can't really get all the pot-loving.

Not to hijack the thread but, if you think someone deserves to spend years in prison for doing something like drinking a beer, smoking a cigarette, or smoking some pot, then I think you really have a lack of empathy and understanding about the issue. You really ought to do some more research on such a crucial issue as drugs prohibition. (The truth is that the War on Drugs is a lot like the Prohibition of the 1920's, only a lot more people have been killed in the drug war)

I guess your ideal world is one in which governments and corporations can imprison you for doing arbitrary things which only hurt yourself. Well congratulations: this is becoming more and more of a reality.

In reality, piracy is a far worse crime than smoking pot, which is not a crime at all. It only hurts yourself.

[Ithekro]

Thank you for not smoking?

[DonQuigleone]

I'm not really interested in buying DVDs. In fact, I'm not really interested in paying for things that already exist. I would be willing to pay for something that doesn't exist, however.

For instance, if Sunrise said they'd make a new interesting ultra realistic mecha show without teenaged leads, I might be down with giving money to make that happen, say $40.

When you buy a DVD you don't really know how the that money will be spent. I'd like to think it will go towards making more shows like the one on the DVD, but I can't be sure, can I? And of course, they might just put the money towards a sequel, which may not be something I as a consumer desire.

What I'm interested in is paying for new shows, not for shows I've already seen. I'm in to be a patron of the arts, not to waste what limited amounts of space I already have with DVD box sets.

[Random32]

Originally Posted by hyl

To get break-even, around 3-4k discs need to be sold.
If you have seen the disc sales thread
(http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=109699)
then you know that sales are not that high, because they are targeted for a pretty niche martket.

I'm aware of the fact that anime sales are low volume at high prices. I think this makes downloading illegal more justified, there is a lot of merch that is cheaper than a full set of discs, so if you can't buy the discs buy what you can afford instead and just download it and watch it for free.

I have no idea if the japanese people who buys anime, watch them illegally with downloads. Because they actually don't have to , seeing that they can already watch animes legally on their tv's (unless they missed it or want to watch certain animes sooner, because their local tv air that specific anime on a later day)

I think its fairly high,
1. As you mention, anime doesn't air at the same time in every location, thus if you don't want to be late to the party, your options include of moving to wherever your fav anime is being aired first, or pirating. One of the choices is far superior to the other.
2. Also, late night anime tend to air at late hours, hence the name. So you have to record to watch later, or stay up really late, both of which are inconvenient. So pirate instead.

Your interpretation/conclusion is lacking a middle ground.
You make it sound that it's also justified that people may download things on the internet if they can't afford it? >_>

I think people that can't afford things are justified in taking it for free. Digital copies cost nothing, thus should be given away for free. Of course the original costs money to make, and if you can afford it and you want to see more, you should pay. For the creator's sake since they put a lot of hard work into making something you love, and for your own sake, so more things that you want to watch can be made.

And you make it sound justified that you can download things, just because it's not available in your country.

Also justified. Though, if you can afford to import the stuff you like, you should. Just like above.

@Don
Agreed. I would empty a significant portion of my retirement account to see a Katawa Shoujo anime.

[hyl]

Originally Posted by Random32

I'm aware of the fact that anime sales are low volume at high prices. I think this makes downloading illegal more justified, there is a lot of merch that is cheaper than a full set of discs, so if you can't buy the discs buy what you can afford instead and just download it and watch it for free.

Seeing that more people share this opinion, it's no wonder that the anime industry is doing worse lately.

Originally Posted by Random32

I think its fairly high,
1. As you mention, anime doesn't air at the same time in every location, thus if you don't want to be late to the party, your options include of moving to wherever your fav anime is being aired first, or pirating. One of the choices is far superior to the other.
2. Also, late night anime tend to air at late hours, hence the name. So you have to record to watch later, or stay up really late, both of which are inconvenient. So pirate instead.

I said "no idea", because i can't find any graphs or numbers on this. So i don't think either of us is right untill we find something that can be used as proof.

Originally Posted by Random32

I think people that can't afford things are justified in taking it for free. Digital copies cost nothing, thus should be given away for free. Of course the original costs money to make, and if you can afford it and you want to see more, you should pay.

Interesting. So every music, game iso, e-books , movies found downloadable on the internet is in your opinion legal, just because it was (illegally) copied in a digital format.

I think you misunderstand the fact that those "free digitial copies" are in fact not legal, because they are violating copyright laws.

Originally Posted by Random32

For the creator's sake since they put a lot of hard work into making something you love, and for your own sake, so more things that you want to watch can be made.

If they wanted to everyone watch their work, then they would have distributed out their work without any fees themselves >_>
Do you seriously think that that anime producers are philanthropists by investing huge amounts of money (some animes can cost over 11 millions yen per episode) just to entertain a small audience (primarily the otakus)


You are even more extreme on all of this, than a certain anime visual novel blogger that i see on twitter

Originally Posted by DonQuigleone

I'm not really interested in buying DVDs. In fact, I'm not really interested in paying for things that already exist. I would be willing to pay for something that doesn't exist, however.

For instance, if Sunrise said they'd make a new interesting ultra realistic mecha show without teenaged leads, I might be down with giving money to make that happen, say $40.

When you buy a DVD you don't really know how the that money will be spent. I'd like to think it will go towards making more shows like the one on the DVD, but I can't be sure, can I? And of course, they might just put the money towards a sequel, which may not be something I as a consumer desire.

What I'm interested in is paying for new shows, not for shows I've already seen. I'm in to be a patron of the arts, not to waste what limited amounts of space I already have with DVD box sets.

I can't understand what you mean. So you are saying that you don't want to pay for any animes, because you have already seen the and at the same time you want to pay for something that you haven't seen despite not knowing that you will like it or not?
That's like going in a video store and not buying your favorite movie, but blindly picking a random movie that you have not seen yet.

As for paying for new shows, let's wait how this new "Kick-Heart" idea turns out to be.

edit: towards the post below me and since i am not even going to bother making a new post for it

Originally Posted by NinjaRealist

I think that the anime industry just needs to adapt to the new business model that the internet has created.

The only anime and manga I download are things that haven't been released in the US yet. For old stuff that has already been released, I buy manga and I mostly watch anime on websites like netflix, hulu, and crunchyroll.

Websites like Crunchyroll are really the future of anime distribution. You can watch all the anime you want for free and the revenue get back to the production companies via ad revenue. It is annoying to watch ads every five minutes, but it is worth knowing that those ads are supporting the people who create the anime.

In an ideal future, 99% of anime and manga will be available via services like these, which make the anime available at no cost to the viewers other than the time they spend watching the ads but which also adequately compensate the people who create the anime.

There are already threads about this subject somewhere buried in the general anime forums that discuss this matter (in which i also have participated). So try discussing it there and not here, because this thread is slowly getting derailed.

[NinjaRealist]

Originally Posted by hyl

Seeing that more people share this opinion, it's no wonder that the anime industry is doing worse lately.

I think that the anime industry just needs to adapt to the new business model that the internet has created.

The only anime and manga I download are things that haven't been released in the US yet. For old stuff that has already been released, I buy manga and I mostly watch anime on websites like netflix, hulu, and crunchyroll.

Websites like Crunchyroll are really the future of anime distribution. You can watch all the anime you want for free and the revenue get back to the production companies via ad revenue. It is annoying to watch ads every five minutes, but it is worth knowing that those ads are supporting the people who create the anime.

In an ideal future, 99% of anime and manga will be available via services like these, which make the anime available at no cost to the viewers other than the time they spend watching the ads but which also adequately compensate the people who create the anime.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by NinjaRealist

In an ideal future, 99% of anime and manga will be available via services like these...

I think that's basically already the way it is, if you live in the U.S. Last season, I think I counted maybe one or two non-kids shows that were not available for legal streaming in the U.S. Of course, there is still the rest of the world where it's a bit of a mixed bag. But if you say "the anime industry just needs to adapt", I think they have already taken huge steps in that direction.

Originally Posted by Random32

I think people that can't afford things are justified in taking it for free.

This is a really near-sighted argument. People who are in legitimate financial need are one thing, but I know a lot of people who "can't afford things". But they spend many $100s each month on car-related expenses even though they could easily take public transit because they "need a car". But they spend $100s each month on buying new clothes, shoes, and fashion accessories because they "need to look good". But they spend $1000s each year getting the latest smartphone, the latest TV, and the latest computer and computer upgrades, because they "need better gear". But they spend $1000s of dollars each year on vices (drinking, smoking, gambling, etc.), eating out at fancy restaurants, and taking fancy vacations because they "need to enjoy life". So then, after they spend all their money on all these other things that they "need", of course they "can't afford things" like anime.

Most people can so "afford things"; they've just decided to take them for free because they'd rather use their money on things they can't just take. The people who choose to spend their money on anime aren't just floating in cash they have no idea how to use; they simply "can't afford" other things that they might want instead. If I wanted to, I could very easily make it so that I "can't afford" anime just like everyone else. But I don't think that justifies using illegal channels to take it for free. Piracy has no justification, only rationalisation.

(Thankfully, because of what I said above, this sort of rationalisation is ostensibly less necessary now that many shows are being made available for legal streaming, at least in certain countries.)

[Random32]

Originally Posted by hyl

Seeing that more people share this opinion, it's no wonder that the anime industry is doing worse lately.

More people sharing this opinion would only increase sales... Do you understand my stance on this?

If you like it and can afford it buy, if it fails to meet those two requirements, pirate.
1. If people don't like something, they won't buy it anyways, regardless of whether they pirate it or not.
2. If people can't afford something, they won't buy it anyways, regardless of whether they pirate it or not.

My stance has a zero to positive impact on sales.

Interesting. So every music, game iso, e-books , movies found downloadable on the internet is in your opinion legal, just because it was (illegally) copied in a digital format.

I think you misunderstand the fact that those "free digitial copies" are in fact not legal, because they are violating copyright laws.

Not saying they are legal. It is not correct to pirate things, there are laws about that, like the one that started this thread, but it is not wrong under many circumstances imho.

Please understand the difference between right and correct.

If they wanted to everyone watch their work, then they would have distributed out their work without any fees themselves >_>
Do you seriously think that that anime producers are philanthropists by investing huge amounts of money (some animes can cost over 11 millions yen per episode) just to entertain a small audience (primarily the otakus)

They aren't philanthropists. Where am I suggesting they are? They make anime in exchange for money. If you like them and can afford to pay them, please do, if you didn't like their work, or can't afford to pay, then don't. This is the way things have always worked.

This is a really near-sighted argument. People who are in legitimate financial need are one thing, but I know a lot of people who "can't afford things". But they spend $100s each month on car-related expenses even though they could easily take public transit because they "need a car". But they spend $100s each month on buying new clothes, shoes, and fashion because they "need to look good". But they spend $1000s each year getting the latest smartphone, the latest TV, and the latest computer and computer upgrades, because they "need better gear". But they spend $1000s of dollars each year on vices (drinking, smoking, gambling, etc.), eating out at fancy restaurants, and taking fancy vacations because they "need to enjoy life". So then, after they spend all their money on all these other things that they "need", of course they "can't afford things" like anime.

Most people can so "afford things"; they've just decided to take them for free because they'd rather use their money on things they can't just take. The people who choose to spend their money on anime aren't just floating in cash they have no idea how to use; they simply "can't afford" other things that they might want instead. If I wanted to, I could very easily make it so that I "can't afford" anime just like everyone else. But I don't think that justifies taking it for free. Piracy has no justification, only rationalisation.

Those people can obviously afford anime and aren't paying for it, I don't think they are justified in taking it for free. I think I should have made clear what "can't afford" is. I was more thinking teenagers with zero income, people in poorer countries, people without jobs and can barely afford rent/utilities/food, etc. than people that just spend their money on other things and suddenly "can't afford" anime.

Maybe instead of "can't afford anime," I should have said "without enough disposable income to afford anime" or something like that since it would exclude the people who could afford anime if they didn't spend it on other non-essential things.

EDIT: Thinking about the point I'm trying to make more, and this sums it up pretty well
Imagine if you couldn't get anime-you-want x for free, would you buy it?
If Yes, then the right thing to do is to buy it, despite the fact that it is available for free
If No, then just pirate

[NinjaRealist]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

I think that's basically already the way it is, if you live in the U.S. Last season, I think I counted maybe one or two non-kids shows that were not available for legal streaming in the U.S. Of course, there is still the rest of the world where it's a bit of a mixed bag. But if you say "the anime industry just needs to adapt", I think they have already taken huge steps in that direction.

It's true that they are doing a lot better and most new series are available on legal streaming websites. But they could do a much better job when it comes to older series, IMO.

Netflix does have a lot of older series, but it is a very spotty collection and they are all dubs. I don't hate dubs categorically, but there are many dubs that are totally unbearable.

But yeah, with the amount of free, legal, anime on the internet, it is surprising that there are still people who rely primarily on torrents.

As far as manga goes, I find most legal online manga databases to be pretty poor options, both in terms of cost and usefulness. But that's jut me.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Random32

Please understand the difference between right and correct.

There is no difference between "right" and "correct" here, except the difference you are trying to impart.

It's always illegal. The question is whether you consider it unethical or immoral. You have some very specific criteria that draw the line to you, but I don't think very many people follow even your criteria. Do you...?

Originally Posted by Random32

EDIT: Thinking about the point I'm trying to make more, and this sums it up pretty well
Imagine if you couldn't get anime-you-want x for free, would you buy it?
If Yes, then the right thing to do is to buy it, despite the fact that it is available for free
If No, then just pirate

I think this is still short-sighted and unrealistic. People who pirate and buy usually use their viewing experience to help determine if they want to buy it. So if the answer to "if I couldn't watch it for free, would I buy it" is the key factor, the answer may always be no -- if they didn't see it first, they may not know if they like it! Plus, your entire system depends on people "doing the right thing", and excuses not purchasing for a number of potentially arbitrary reasons (if "liking something" ethically obligates me to a $600+ purchase, then I think I can become pretty good at rationalising that I didn't really really like it).

In the end, I'm not trying to make some super-broad statement about piracy being completely unethical, inexcusable, and always Wrong. But I think your rationalisation framework is rather weak if you try to pitch it as some sort ethical justification for piracy because the unspoken option here is "If I can't afford it, I'll just have to go without". The "nothing lost, nothing gained" argument is based on the "zero-cost" of a digital copy, but it implies that the actual anime itself has no value except when converted to a physical good. I think the chain reaction implications of this are incredibly complicated and potentially-troubling when you extrapolate to a large scale.



All this said, I don't think that this law is necessarily the right way to handle this, but at the same time I think we as a global society have a long ways to go before we've fully come to terms with the many foundation-shaking things the Internet allows us to do. I expect a lot more such turbulence while the many forces in society struggle to figure things out.

[NoemiChan]

Downloading for commercial purposes to earn cash is illegal.

[Random32]

Okay then, what I intended to write wasn't the same thing that got across in the stuff that I wrote, so lets try anime buying guidelines revision 3.
1. Download and watch it before any money is spent, no point in buying blind.
2. Let's pretend you saw this on TV or something, do you like it enough that if in that case, you would buy it?
3. If you would buy it in that scenario, you should buy it now, the fact that you can just keep it for free doesn't matter. If you wouldn't buy it that scenario, don't buy it now.
4. But the fact that digital copies cost nothing introduces a small twist, you can just keep it on your hard drive without buying the discs, and buy something that costs less than a full set of discs, or maybe just not buy anything at all depending on how much you like it.

btw, on the topic of me following my guidelines. I try to, but it's not a perfect guideline and sometimes I feel justified to violate it, but I try to make sure that my money gets to deserving creators.

In the end, I'm not trying to make some super-broad statement about piracy being completely unethical, inexcusable, and always Wrong. But I think your rationalisation framework is rather weak if you try to pitch it as some sort ethical justification for piracy because the unspoken option here is "If I can't afford it, I'll just have to go without". The "nothing lost, nothing gained" argument is based on the "zero-cost" of a digital copy, but it implies that the actual anime itself has no value except when converted to a physical good. I think the chain reaction implications of this are incredibly complicated and potentially-troubling when you extrapolate to a large scale.

I can see your concerns and I was probably wrong to say it's a framework to say what is ethically right or not, but I think its a decent decision making tool for what I should buy and what I shouldn't. I think its a decent set of guidelines that people should try and follow.

As for "If I can't afford it, I'll just have to go without," I don't think that has to exist in a world where copies are free. If you can't afford it, don't pay for it and take it for free, just make sure you don't take things for free just because you can get them for free.

[darktruth]

Originally Posted by hyl

In all seriousness while we are talking about animes in japan, how many people in this forum actually buy discs of their favorite series from japan?

Originally Posted by Sumeragi

How many people CAN buy without paying prohibitively high transportation costs?

Originally Posted by Random32

Does anyone here have the money to buy anime from Japan blindly?

*Raises hand*

Not going to go into a huge post explaining why as I've already done that on my blog. I will say that I have blind buy/imported anime from Japan and that slowly became more common within the past year or so as I hardly ever watch fansubs anymore. Most recent example is Ano Natsu and to some point Fate/ZERO as well. Guess I'm probably one of the rare few who does this but then again like relentlessflame has pretty much said it with this post below.

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

People who are in legitimate financial need are one thing, but I know a lot of people who "can't afford things". But they spend many $100s each month on car-related expenses even though they could easily take public transit because they "need a car". But they spend $100s each month on buying new clothes, shoes, and fashion accessories because they "need to look good". But they spend $1000s each year getting the latest smartphone, the latest TV, and the latest computer and computer upgrades, because they "need better gear". But they spend $1000s of dollars each year on vices (drinking, smoking, gambling, etc.), eating out at fancy restaurants, and taking fancy vacations because they "need to enjoy life". So then, after they spend all their money on all these other things that they "need", of course they "can't afford things" like anime.

In terms of being able to afford to buy anime that is as I don't really spend much money on other things that he mentioned.

[NoemiChan]

1. Download and watch it before any money is spent, no point in buying blind.

Internet connections ain't free.

2. Let's pretend you saw this on TV or something, do you like it enough that if in that case, you would buy it?

Yup. That's why I keep a "Must Buy List"

3. If you would buy it in that scenario, you should buy it now, the fact that you can just keep it for free doesn't matter. If you wouldn't buy it that scenario, don't buy it now.

I'll keep it temporarily but deletes it afterwards when I get my DVd to save disc space...

4. But the fact that digital copies cost nothing introduces a small twist, you can just keep it on your hard drive without buying the discs, and buy something that costs less than a full set of discs, or maybe just not buy anything at all depending on how much you like it.

Small twist? For an otaku fan... it's all worth it... Plus high quality....

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Random32

As for "If I can't afford it, I'll just have to go without," I don't think that has to exist in a world where copies are free. If you can't afford it, don't pay for it and take it for free, just make sure you don't take things for free just because you can get them for free.

Even better, don't take it for free if you have a legitimate legal option to watch the content. This is increasingly the case now anyway.

We've lived in a world where copies are at least "cheap" for a long time: photocopiers, tape decks, VCRs, PVRs, and so on. The legal frameworks for personal copying exceptions have generally revolved around whether you had a legal ability to access the content in the first place, or the fact that you were actually making the copy yourself for personal use. So I'm not too sure that the fact that copying is now "free" (needed: Internet connection) should really completely change the game. I don't think we would have considered it okay if someone bought a $100 book, photocopied it, and started either giving the copies away to his friends to save them from having to pay the $100 fee, even though it may have cost him a few dollars to make each copy. We certainly wouldn't consider it okay if he started selling his copies for $25 and undercut the legitimate publisher. It may be true that not everyone who gets the copy would have bought the book in the first place (or paid the full price), but I'm not convinced that saying it's okay to take anything and relying entirely on people's "good will" to "pay if they can" is completely honest or sustainable either. I'm not convinced that most people are honest, and in practice it just seems to mean that those of us who are willing to pay have to pay a lot more.

I think there needs to be another answer.

Originally Posted by darktruth

Guess I'm probably one of the rare few who does this...

Well, yeah -- I've blind-bought JP anime Blu-Rays as well; I blind-bought Ano Natsu, along with Madoka Magica (among others). I also bought the full series for a lot of shows after only watching the first one or two episodes. So yeah... you're not the only one! And yeah, the other paragraph was definitely from personal experience. I've had to give up a lot of things I've wanted so that I can afford to buy anime instead, but I do it because it's important to me. I think a lot of people consider anime very important to them -- they may even consider it their main or most important hobby -- but they're not willing to sacrifice anything for it, even the obvious luxuries. Equal investment is obviously impossible (we all live different lives), but there's something to be said for an equal sense of sacrifice.

[Ithekro]

For books there are things know as Libraries for that sort of thing. I seem to recall that finding anime in a public library in the United States (of the kind typically being discussed around here) to be fairly rare.

[Xenio]

it also depend on which country you living in, for example in a developing country like my country, an anime BD can cost almost half of a month income for a high-paying job here.