[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[turlingdrome]

jjblue1, it sounds like you're ignoring that Natsuhi didn't know about the trouble the other siblings were in. That part of the plan, Krauss was very careful to keep hidden from her in all the games. He claimed it was because he didn't want to cause her stress, but most likely he realized that her sense of honor would make her despise using such tactics. Especially considering how pissed off she was when she heard about how they had gotten into debt.

From Natsuhi's perspective, this isn't a "they go poor or we go poor" issue. Outside their short-term issues, the businesses of the other siblings are supposedly doing great.

What you're asking her to do is put her husband in jail, live poor for the rest of her life, destroy her daughter's future, put an end to the Ushiromiya family line, sell off Kinzo's castle for a penny, and disgrace the Ushiromiya name publicly. And the only benefit to literally anyone in the world is that the other siblings get their inheritance slightly faster, though even they will get a far smaller share than they deserve.


As for Battler's capacity for cruelty, there's a huge difference in both kind and degree. According to Erika's theory, Battler was the one making the phone call containing sexual threats to Natsuhi. That goes way beyond not getting involved in decisions made by other people. And no, George did not convince Battler that Rosa hitting Maria was justified, only that it wasn't their place to get involved. And in the study scene, Battler was faced with the possibility of eminent death, and had apparently absolute proof that one in that group was culpable. And he didn't chase them out of the room to punish them, but purely to protect the innocent.


Edit: Also, Battler's refusal to deny Erika's theory is proof that it's true? Doesn't that situation remind you of anything?

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by turlingdrome

jjblue1, it sounds like you've forgotten that Natsuhi didn't know about the trouble the other siblings were in. That part of the plan, Krauss was very careful to keep hidden from her in all the games. He claimed it was because he didn't want to cause her stress, but most likely he realized that her sense of honor would make her despise using such tactics. Especially considering how pissed off she was when she heard about how they had gotten into debt.

From Natsuhi's perspective, this isn't a "they go poor or we go poor" issue. Outside their short-term issues, the businesses of the other siblings are supposedly doing great.

What you're asking her to do is put her husband in jail, live poor for the rest of her life, destroy her daughter's future, put an end to the Ushiromiya family line, sell off Kinzo's castle for a penny, and disgrace the Ushiromiya name publicly. And the only benefit to literally anyone in the world is that the other siblings get their inheritance slightly faster, though even they will get a far smaller share than they deserve.

Honestly I don't see what you're trying to prove.
I understand that Natsuhi wants to protect her husband and that she's willing to commit crimes for that... but because she's willing to commit crimes for that she's not innocent anymore.

She's still stealing and since her situation is so desperate, very likely she would do the same even if she were to know the truth. Because her family is in danger and she's willing to put in danger a child of nine to make sure her daughter is safe.

There's no way to make her actions better from the siblings' perspective.

Even if they had tons of money... Krauss and Natsuhi still wouldn't have the right to steal from them and then spat on the siblings when the siblings ask to have their money back.

As sad as it is, Krauss committed a crime and deserves to go to jail. And I find this even sadder and totally unfair but since he's Jessica's father, Jessica will have to pay the consequences of Krauss' actions. But it won't be so bad as you picture it because if Natsuhi divorces from Krauss, Krauss has saved for her compensation money so that she and Jessica can keep on living freely.

Now, Natsuhi loves Krauss and she doesn't want to divorce from him nor let him go to jail... but this doesn't make her actions right. They're human, they're understable but they aren't right. They're a crime.

Originally Posted by turlingdrome

As for Battler's capacity for cruelty, there's a huge difference in both kind and degree. According to Erika's theory, Battler was the one making the phone call containing sexual threats to Natsuhi. That goes way beyond not getting involved in decisions made by other people.

Did we read the same manga? Because Natsuhi never received a phone call in which sexual threats were made to her.

Harass in that case don't refers to sexual harassment but to "to disturb persistently; torment, as with troubles or cares; bother continually; pester; persecute. " (I quote the dictionary as English isn't my main language)

And as I told you you should have kept on reading the manga. Battler will deny in red making a phonecall to Natsuhi. And that's the trap Erika set for him because she figured out it was the true culprit and was waiting for him to just push her into revealing the culprit's name.

I think before trying to reason further, you've to make sure you've all the info.
Please, read Ep 8. The whole of it. There's plenty of extra info you didn't find in the VN.

Originally Posted by turlingdrome

And no, George did not convince Battler that Rosa hitting Maria was justified, only that it wasn't their place to get involved.

It wasn't their place to get involved not only because it was a matter between a parent and a child but because Rosa was rightfully correcting Maria, according to George, as Maria couldn't keep acting like that. Basically, he told him Rosa's actions are right as she's Maria's mother and knows what to do.

Actually Battler would be quite a jerk if he were to think Rosa is abusing Maria but, hey, it's not his business to get in between... and we're actually told that Battler hadn't been raised to be such a jerk.

Battler: ......I knew that problems between parent and child were none of my business as an outsider. But I wasn't brought up to just silently observe something like this... (From Ep 1)

Battler will try to stop Rosa FOUR times. Then George will persuade him that Rosa is doing the right thing and that she's worrying for Maria's future and Battler will desist.

Originally Posted by turlingdrome

And in the study scene, Battler was faced with the possibility of eminent death, and had apparently absolute proof that one in that group was culpable. And he didn't chase them out of the room to punish them, but purely to protect the innocent.

And, if one of them was culpable and the other 3 innocent, the culprit would kill the other 3... and among those other 3 there was his cousin of 9...

And Battler didn't chase them out. It was Natsuhi. Battler merely didn't oppose. Same as he didn't oppose when his parents, in order not to go bankrupted, let Natsuhi believe her daughter was killed... which is horrible... but wouldn't kill her... while in Ep 1 Maria could have very well gotten killed.

Battler is a nice kid... but he's still a kid who can't do all he wants. Sometimes he has to do what he's told to do even when it's umpleasant. Sometimes, he ends up letting others persuade him that something wrong is actually right. He's not perfect.

Originally Posted by turlingdrome

Edit: Also, Battler's refusal to deny Erika's theory is proof that it's true? Doesn't that situation remind you of anything?

Yes, that you're trying to deny a canon solution as many others.
Ryukishi isn't trying to offer us new mysteries by creating extra content. He's giving us the solution. We lack of love toward him if we can't believe him.

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by turlingdrome

What you're asking her to do is put her husband in jail, live poor for the rest of her life, destroy her daughter's future, put an end to the Ushiromiya family line, sell off Kinzo's castle for a penny, and disgrace the Ushiromiya name publicly.

Her option could have also been to confide in the siblings and put an end to the charade. She IS shoveling her own grave with her actions, since to an outsider her actions can only be perceived as malice. She IS putting herself on a pedestal with her actions and claims, especially when it comes to talking about the Ushiromiya family honour. While Eva's comeback in EP1 towards her was cruel and calculated, it wasn't completely unbased. Natsuhi does claim to speak not only for the family but as an extension of the family head, when she is not.

According to Erika's theory, Battler was the one making the phone call containing sexual threats to Natsuhi. That goes way beyond not getting involved in decisions made by other people.

You should really go and read the EP8 manga from start to finish (or at least from the Halloween party onwards, because that is where changes really started kicking in).
Not only does Battler constantly say that he is unable to find a gap in Erika's reasoning even though he desperately needs one (proving that her theory is true), he also shows a look of utter despair. Concerning the call, he tries his last move to get her with exactly what you mentioned in chapter 21:

In the 5th game...it was not Battler who did the call to Natsuhi on the morning of the 5th. A telephone threat was certainly carried out...but the caller at this point is not Kinzo, Krauss, Natsuhi, Eva, Hideyoshi, Rudolph, Kyrie, Rosa, Jessica, George, Battler, Maria, Nanjo, Genji, Shannon, Kanon, Kumasawa, Gohda, any of these 18. And of course it is not Furudo Erika!

Of course Erika shoots it down and Battler is defeated by her.

[turlingdrome]

Yes, that last red of Erika's. Unfortunately, Battler overestimated her, and that's why she didn't even hesitate. Because she totally should have.

First off, Battler already knows she has the name game figured out. What else was she doing all that time before? So it's crazy to think Battler would've expected anything other than what actually happened...on the surface. Also, when he said that line, he used 18名 instead of 18人. I'm not sure what was used in the manga's red text, but the original game always used 人 as a counter. Pretty sure they mean the same thing in Japanese, though 名 is a bit more formal. Beyond that though, 人 is the kanji for people, while 名 is the kanji for names. So taken literally, Battler is openly saying "it wasn't done by any of these 18 names".

Secondly...don't you find it strange that he specifically mentions the call on the morning of the 5th? That's just the 3rd phone call. Why would he limit it to that one?

Take a look back at that section of the game, and you'll see why Erika should at least have hesitated. And in fact, I don't see how Yasu could possibly have made that phone call.

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by turlingdrome

Take a look back at that section of the game, and you'll see why Erika should at least have hesitated. And in fact, I don't see how Yasu could possibly have made that phone call.

Please tell me what I am supposed to see.
During the first call Erika hasn't even arrived on the island yet and during the second call she is sitting in the guest house talking to Nanjo and Gohda, very far away from the events. During the third call Battler is in the guesthouse, Erika is in the neighbouring room, and "X and Kanon" are in the mansion.

I think it would be very helpful if you would spell out your ideas, instead of vaguely hinting at something that you believe to have seen at some obscure point. Since most of us are in the "the manga is canon" camp, you will have to give it a little more effort.

[Mali]

Hu? Kanon and Godha knocked on the door of Natsuhi's room and called her while Natsuhi was being called. I don't believe they had a wireless phone or Kanon running like crazy from a nearby phone and to the door. And back...of course.

The telephone had a service that let it automatically call the phone in Natsuhi's room if the line was busy. Battler made the prank call...and Shannon or Kanon used this service... the phone would tried to call Natshi's phone. But if the phone was disconnected from the internal line before Batller ended the call and connected aferwards in the morning, then the phone made the call for real. No Use of a extra person.

I think if the manga displayed a such red with poor background, Ryukishi should have sticked with the lixAxil fight, this is my opinion.

[jjblue1]

In the manga the scene in which Natsuhi is called by the servants is removed and the phonecall is implied to take place much before the servants knew that someone died... so even if Gohda and Kanon had been the ones who went to call her, they would have gone much after the phonecall ended.

In short there's no way to question the scene in the manga as it didn't exist and if it took place and wasn't represented it happened much later.

Interesting enough that's not the only difference from the VN. In the Vn as Natsuhi wakes up she's greeted by Lucifer who claims to have bad news to give to her but that she'll do it after Natsuhi will answer to the phonecall.

In the manga Natsuhi won't see Lucifer when she wakes up but will directly answer to the phonecall. After she has done Lucifer will show up and inform her about the murders.

Now... why Lucifer both in the VN and the manga? It can be a fantasy scene added at random or a hint that the report of the deaths done to Natsuhi has some fantasy elements in it, namely that Kanon wasn't present.


But now let's use the VN only and see who can testify that Kanon was present.

Kanon. His testimoniance is, of course, not reliable.

Gohda. Sayo's bribed accomplice, also not reliable.

Natsuhi. Let's assume Natsuhi is reliable for the start.

What can Natsuhi testify if her testimoniance is reliable? That she heard out of the room a 'Kanon's voice' and that Gohda claimed Kanon was with him. Kanon's voice can be faked by Gohda. Ep 5 loved to discuss how voices can be altered so they'll sound like other people's voices. Gohda's talking through a door so Natsuhi shouldn't hear him perfectly. It's not so difficult to trick her.

Did Natsuhi saw Kanon out of the door?

We don't know. The scene isn't included in the VN. Natsuhi is still in her night clothes. We know she is very proper and normally don't wanted around in them in her house. It's entirely possible she didn't feel confortable opening up the door to Gohda and Kanon so she hear their report through it.

Or she made them wait. In this case when she opened the door after she dressed up Gohda could claim Kanon left for... doing something different.

On the other side it could entirely be that Natsuhi's testimoniance isn't reliable.

She believes Kanon to be one of her accomplices.
If she's tricked into thinking that Kanon being there to call her can be useful to her, she'll lie.

So we can't even be sure that Natsuhi's testimoniance would be reliable or that she'll have something reliable beyond I think I've heard Kanon's voice out of my door to testify.

Did Natsuhi ever had to testify something in this regard?

Nope. Never. The whole being called wasn't investigated. Natsuhi didn't have to testify she was called by Gohda and Kanon in the same way as she didn't have to testify she talked with Lucifer. We just know that the narrative when she's involved can lie... and it likely did to create the illusion of an alibi for Kanon for a VN reader. Personally though I would have preferred for the call to be done by Genji in the VN as he's an accomplice, he's currently missing and he can strangle Krauss just as well.

Not that it was relevant as in the VN is perfectly possible to suspect of Battler, Genji or whoever else as the bit in red about him or anyone else never calling is never stated... while in the manga as Kanon is never shown going to call Natsuhi he was without an alibi.

In short the manga solution can work even in the VN even if there's a simpler solution in the VN for it while in the manga it cames out as a smooth solution as some part from the VN weren't included.

[Mali]

Hi jj,

Of course it can be one of the "high risk, high reward situation" or roulette scene here.
I CANNOT speak about the manga (sorry!) so please let me avoid this.
But this scene is a whole cat box. You can also be right!
jaja I like to make alternate theories:
Kanon might used the neighbouring room to call Natshui and shout out of the room or hallway. Godha simply made the knock.

Even if EP5 want to make clear that some scenes even didn't happen, some can be explained as if they really happened like the letter ( to my dismay I cannot explain the knocking sound ): Simply switch 24:00 to 00:00 and the placement of the letter has no time restriction anymore.

[turlingdrome]

Hmm, okay. But that still leaves the problem that Erika didn't respond to Battler's red correctly.

If "Yasu" made the call, and we're shown Shannon and Kanon in the list of cleared suspects, then it would be incorrect to say that Yasu made the phone call. You would have to say "the man from 19 years ago" made the call, with that being one of Yasu's personas, the false characters she created that are a combination of a lie and her own emotions.

However, we were able to tie the Shannon and Kanon personas to Yasu based on evidence throughout the series. And at this point, I think it's safe to say there's no proof that Yasu made the calls. In fact, just a few minutes before this red, Erika made a theory that Battler was the voice.

In other words, following the logic of the series, Battler's final line of red text proves nothing. It only tells us that the call came from someone playing the persona called "the man from 19 years ago", a fact we already knew. And Erika's response means she's still capable of making mistakes.

[RandomUser]

Wow a battle of blue statment and red truth, it's been a while since I last saw those.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Mali

Hi jj,

Of course it can be one of the "high risk, high reward situation" or roulette scene here.
I CANNOT speak about the manga (sorry!) so please let me avoid this.
But this scene is a whole cat box. You can also be right!
jaja I like to make alternate theories:
Kanon might used the neighbouring room to call Natshui and shout out of the room or hallway. Godha simply made the knock.

Even if EP5 want to make clear that some scenes even didn't happen, some can be explained as if they really happened like the letter ( to my dismay I cannot explain the knocking sound ): Simply switch 24:00 to 00:00 and the placement of the letter has no time restriction anymore.

I've considered your alternate theory and I liked it... but then stumbled upon the problem that Krauss was killed just after the phone call. In order to kill him Kanon should have kept him in the next room... and then move him or Erika, while ispecting all the rooms, would have found him. Which is a possible but complicate solution. An alternative is that Krauss was in the underground tunnel with Genji who killed him at a designated time... Natsuhi never heard Krauss' true voice but a recordered one so Kanon didn't need to be with Krauss. The designated time was studied carefully so that it would match the time after the phone call ended.
Again, it's possible but more complicate.

The fact it's complicate for Umineko isn't really a problem, Ryukishi more than once shoce the complicate solution when there was a simple one available... so they're both possible... and I guess some more solutions can be thoughts.

As I've said in the past not all the mysteries of Umineko have a confirmed solution, just the main ones so discussing them is still possible.

Originally Posted by turlingdrome

Hmm, okay. But that still leaves the problem that Erika didn't respond to Battler's red correctly.

If "Yasu" made the call, and we're shown Shannon and Kanon in the list of cleared suspects, then it would be incorrect to say that Yasu made the phone call. You would have to say "the man from 19 years ago" made the call, with that being one of Yasu's personas, the false characters she created that are a combination of a lie and her own emotions.

However, we were able to tie the Shannon and Kanon personas to Yasu based on evidence throughout the series. And at this point, I think it's safe to say there's no proof that Yasu made the calls. In fact, just a few minutes before this red, Erika made a theory that Battler was the voice.

In other words, following the logic of the series, Battler's final line of red text proves nothing. It only tells us that the call came from someone playing the persona called "the man from 19 years ago", a fact we already knew. And Erika's response means she's still capable of making mistakes.

Nope. Erika didn't answered in a wrong way, she just didn't finish her answer. What's missing is the name of the owner of the body, who's neither Kanon nor Shannon as they're just personas the culprit discharded when the phonecall was made.

In the contest the situation is as following.

Erika was sent by Bern to stop Battler from reaching Ange and started fighting with him with this purpose.

In fact Erika's blue truth, instead than cutting through Battler as Battler's blue truth did with Beato in Ep 4, traps Battler. This can work because the blue truth also gives the obligation to answer to it.

Anyway in her blue reasoning, among other things, claimed the one calling himself 'the man from 19 years ago' and doing the phonecalls to Natsuhi was Battler, although she recognized he wasn't the culprit just an accomplice. Basically she made Battler as the one who was carrying two names, along with the culprit (and other characters in Umineko, really).

Erika very likely likes that reasoning as she loves revealing the worse sides of people and, if he had made the phone calls, Battler would reveal himself as a jerk... and we can see she taunts him about it.

Anyway her blue reasoning traps Battler and stops him from going to Ange.

Beato loses against Ange who gains the book of the one truth. Desperate, Battler makes a final attempt to get free and steal Erika's key.

Erika, who has solved Ep 6 already, can very well read through his attempt, but he doesn't need to stop her forever, just to free himself that much he need to grab the key.

Therefore he attacks the only wrong point in Erika's reasoning... even though by claiming he was innocent, he further exposes Beato as the culprit.

Battler though, hopes to catch her on surprise as previously it was made clear that Erika hated revising theories she liked.

So it's not like Erika can't cut through his red... he just hopes she won't be fast enough in doing it.

Turns out he's wrong and Erika was basically waiting him to do so because, although for Erika is pleasurable to blame Battler of a crime he didn't do, to her it's a lot much more pleasurable to force him to do something that basically will cause Beatrice's identity to be exposed.

The battle though ends with Erika not revealing the culprit's identity. Her blue truth, though logic, is unfinished. She never delivers the fatal blow. Her blue truth won't pierce through Battler as she won't toss it against him. She has however said to him enough to make him sure she knows the truth in details.

Erika didn't really care about piercing through Battler, she just wanted to see his face when he realized she has unveiled the truth.

She's saving the truth for later on, when she'll toss it against Beato in one of the most epic battles that are in the manga.

So no, her blue isn't wrong, it's purposely left incomplete, Erika leaves before using it, but for a reader who has solved Umineko is pretty easy to complete it in the same way as it's easy to guess about who's she's talking when she keeps on saying "X and Kanon".




Now... back to Battler's red.

Battler's red doesn't deny the fact that the call was made by 'the man from 19 years ago', just that he' isn't the one doing the call.

All people can only use their own names

The call was made by 'the man from 19 years ago'.

If Battler is not the caller, he's not 'the man from 19 years ago'.

During the trial we were told that Krauss died just after that call. So who can be the caller? Not one of those who thought it was a fake murder to assault Natsuhi. This leaves only the culprit, whose identity Erika has implied she has already figured out.

So who's the owner of the body carrying also the name 'the man from 19 years ago' as that's what the riddle is asking you to guess? Not Shannon or Kanon as whose are just aliases, personas, that were discharged when the culprit made that call (and then killed Krauss), names the body carries.

The true culprit was Yasuda Sayo. That's the part that's missing to Erika's blue... but she's saving it for a future chapter. Still Battler, from her words, figured out she knew and that therefore he has lost.

I hope this clears things up.

Originally Posted by RandomUser

Wow a battle of blue statment and red truth, it's been a while since I last saw those.

LOL, in a way it's a pity there aren't more of them as there are still unsolved riddles that could be discussed... but somehow discussions tend to focus on the ones who are already officially solved instead...

[RandomUser]

Who remembers the mystery of the letter at the sixth gameboard?

I don't remember the exact details of that situation, just that I didn't solve it.

[AuraTwilight]

Battler put it there.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by RandomUser

Who remembers the mystery of the letter at the sixth gameboard?

I don't remember the exact details of that situation, just that I didn't solve it.

Well, once you accept that Battler or Sayo could leave the room they were in you can claim one of the two placed the letter.

[Mali]

Originally Posted by jjblue1

I've considered your alternate theory and I liked it... but then stumbled upon the problem that Krauss was killed just after the phone call. In order to kill him Kanon should have kept him in the next room... and then move him or Erika, while ispecting all the rooms, would have found him. Which is a possible but complicate solution. An alternative is that Krauss was in the underground tunnel with Genji who killed him at a designated time... Natsuhi never heard Krauss' true voice but a recordered one so Kanon didn't need to be with Krauss. The designated time was studied carefully so that it would match the time after the phone call ended.
Again, it's possible but more complicate.

The fact it's complicate for Umineko isn't really a problem, Ryukishi more than once shoce the complicate solution when there was a simple one available... so they're both possible... and I guess some more solutions can be thoughts.

As I've said in the past not all the mysteries of Umineko have a confirmed solution, just the main ones so discussing them is still possible.

Your thoughts were well chosen.
But I think the Stakes stated that all six people weren't moved after their death. And Krauss might be not instantly killed...
Mmmh this discussion make me think why Battler did not chose the "witch" way in EP5 since many of Erika's reasoning...was pointless, she broke Knox, ignored red...it can be denied or questioned in many ways.

[RandomUser]

My mistake. I was talking about the letter in the fifth gameboard not the sixth.

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by jjblue1

All people can only use their own names

The call was made by 'the man from 19 years ago'.

We also know by EP7 that the man from 19 years ago does exist. His name is Ushiromiya Lion, a name given to him by his father but never used outside of very few occasions since his identity was hidden. But you can argue that the murderer in EP5 was the angry Ushiromiya Lion who was robbed of his inheritance, his life, any chance at happiness, by a woman with psychological problems.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by RandomUser

My mistake. I was talking about the letter in the fifth gameboard not the sixth.

The solution of the trick is 'revealed' in "Forgery no.XXX" were they basically use the same trick.

“And don't forget this.“
“......I will take care of it.“
“Tonight, when the grandfather clock in the grand hall strikes midnight, you will deliver this to the family members in the dining room. You will tell them, that there was a knock at the door of the servant's room ...... and when you stepped out into the corridor this was lying on the floor.“
“....I understand.“

Switch 'servant room' with Dining room and 'Kanon' with 'Kanon and the siblings' and you've the solution.

Basically the adults just lied. There was no knock nor the letter was found on the ground. Likely Shannon or Kanon handed it to them and they just agreed to tell that someone knocked and delivered it without being seen.

Originally Posted by haguruma

We also know by EP7 that the man from 19 years ago does exist. His name is Ushiromiya Lion, a name given to him by his father but never used outside of very few occasions since his identity was hidden. But you can argue that the murderer in EP5 was the angry Ushiromiya Lion who was robbed of his inheritance, his life, any chance at happiness, by a woman with psychological problems.

Yes, but I think it's a little unfair to ask Erika to guess the name's Ushiromiya Lion because, apart from whose who Requiem/Confession, there's no one else out of the small circle of people involved that would know of such name.

Of course it can be that Erika was allowed to read Requiem... and had gained that info. However in the contrary case, unless something in the Japanese test can hint at it, it'll be hard to figure that Kinzo's child was called as such.

One can find Shannon's true name as she attended school or, likely, through the Fukuin shool (Erika perlustrated all the place so she might have found it written somewhere) but for Lion... the ones who knew about him should be all dead.

[RandomUser]

Thanks for the answer of the letter, but what was the reason for lying about the letter? My memories of the EP5 are really blurry.
I should read it again.

[Mali]

There isn't a real reason. The letter was handed directly from Shannon or Kanon.
I think the letter or the ring wasn't even mentioned after the morning.