Chapter 363 Discussion

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by Sazelyt

You are saying it would have been stated, but I don't really think that has to be the case. Isn't it possible that our dear mangaka has forgotten that, and will include that in the volume release? Anyways, that is not the main concern here (I just wanted to criticize him, once more). What Kishi drew there, a straight 25-30 meter line, cannot be explained using another means. And, Sasuke doing a few meters chakra sword in non-CS2 mode suddenly doing a few times more than that in CS2 mode is all within the possibilities.

Whereas he stated the max distance in the very same chapter? Not really no.
I wasn't saying Sasuke elongating is sword in CS2 is impossible (and the answer holds no importance to our current discussion anyway) I'm just saying that when characters explain what happened during a previous action it is unlikely that they let aside the most important part of said action. Here Sasuke increasing the range of his sword would clearly be more important than gaining 1m with his sword and a few more with his wing.
On a side note I think 25-30m is a great exageration anyway, look at the size of his Chidori sword meant to be 5m at the beginning of the chapter, the one he uses against the dragon seems twice as long at best.

I agree that, and would have agreed wholeheartedly till the end, if I hadn't seen Sasuke in that kind of fatigued state, not being able to stand up or keep sharingan on.

While I agree about the standing part (I just think it was a red herring I don't think it was the case for the Sharingan : Sasuke kept it "on" even after his last Chidori Nagashi, Sasuke put it "off" only several pages later after Deidara's speech about those annoying eyes and even after that Deidara saw this as Sasuke underestimating him (ie he thought he had won) and not his usual assumption that Sasuke was out of chakra.

When he punched Deidara he seemed to barely stand, he was shaking, breating heavily, etc. but he seemed to recover after a few seconds. After the Chidori Nagashi the same thing happened and a simple explanation would be that he took his second breath again after a few second.
Or he just went CS1 to force his body to create chakra and increase his speed.

What do you mean I was wrong? Isn't 2 the information that is mentioned in the prepublication version?

I wasn't talking about the 2 times / 4 times, I was talking how you presented Naruto regular state as twice as much as Kakashi whereas twice as much is only when Yamato is actively suppressing the Kyubi. Naruto has regulary about 100 fold more chakra than Kakashi, that's why he can spam Rasengan and Kage Bunshin in the first place.

I don't know why you want to defend Kishi, but, changing that information gives a lot of hints on how Kishi forced the things with Sasuke, considering that, to him and to many Uchiha fans, Sasuke shouldn't be behind Naruto to keep the things in balance (as if that can be achieved with just the chakra).

I don't even want to particulary defend Kishimoto, I just consider this as near-paranoiac behavior on your part. This information was changed almost a year ago, this has nothing to do with Sasuke, Kishimoto probably just changed his mind about the amount of chakra Naruto is meant to have when the Kyubi is suppressed.

I can still claim that is not the case with the boss summons, meaning the amount of chakra required and the summon called the delay might change (proof summoning of Gamabunta).

You can also say the moon is a triangle, it will not make it true. Don't you see what you are doing? Of course you can claim that suddenly you can't summon almost instantaneously when it's a boss summon based on one (very arguable) example but it's ridiculous, it's like arguing Naruto can't summon Gamabunta against Gaara despite the fact that he did.
We know you can summon almost instantaneously and we know Sasuke had to summon Manda almost instantaneously hence we know you can summon Godzilla class creature instantaneously and that's all there is to it.

You take as premise to all your reasonning that the situation has to be illogical and try to stick to this premise but it doesn't make any sense. Using the same kind of reasonning you can arg that summoning isn't possible at all and the events where it happened are just ridiculous to begin with because Kishimoto loves Jiraiya/Orochimaru/Naruto/etc.

I can still claim that the moment Jiraiya summoned was much earlier than we are shown the summon. We haven't seen Jiraiya doing his summoning jutsu there. I can further say that at that time Kisame's sword was moving backward (the image doesn't say anything).

What? The summon is still surrounded by smoke with the sfx of summoning apparition and the image also has directional speelines around the swrod so yeah the image does say everything. But really look at the kind of argument you are forced to make : I mean "Kisame's sword was moving backward"?
I can't believe you believe that yourself.

And I can still say that Kisame was not swinging his sword fast enough. I can still claim that Jiraiya's summon at that exact location, with that exact goal is not something normal, and it is a forced scene. And even if I accept that is the case, by keeping those in mind, I can still claim that Jiraiya's summon was not a typical summon, or even summoned before but transferred there at the right moment. Do we have any proof to invalidate that? As far as I know, we don't.

Same than above, Kisame swinging is sword sloooowly in seconds, summoning being suddenly abnormal for unknown reason or previous scene being also illogical if they aren't contradicting a future scene you deem contraditory (which destroy your point that it's particulary illogical compared from previous scenes anyway), etc. Do you really believe what you are writting?

[quote]Are you sure I am the one who needs proof, especially when you have none at the moment to show that you have the upperhand? Actually, you are the one who puts them in the same place, as if they are the same, and I am saying not because of not having anything to support that, so, I think you should be the one to show any kind of proof. (/quote]
The upperhand? We know for a fact the examples I used are Summoning jutsu and listed/named as such in the Data Book and the manga, you came with the allegation that they are different so the burden of proof is yours.

I mean come on, what about I start to say this summoning from Sasuke was different than the other and didn't require any chakra? And then when people start asking me some proofs I just dodge the question and say they are the one who have to prove me wrong? It's a logical fallacy.

Are you trying to steal my role from the Itachi-clan destruction discussion? Anyway, just to keep things simple, I will only tell you the last example. Manda's summoning. If Sasuke were to not transferred to another dimension and stay in the current world, Suigetsu wouldn't have a need for calling him, in the first place. And considering the time-dimensional jutsus floating around even (Kakashi telling that specifically), it is only safe to say that the summons (the animals bound by kuchiyose jutsu) are called from another dimension (or other dimensions, they do not even have to reside on the same one). So, yes, if that is indeed the case, and if sending humans would be possible, seeing that first time from Sasuke, whereas it could have been mentioned or used by others before at least once, the thing with Sasuke is problematic on the basis. And, so, I have also a problem with that (and it is not gonna change).

You mean am I inventing actions happening off screen to make a point like you did? No I'm doing the opposite : you are the one coming with theories about how Kichiyose works and I'm asking you where did you get this knowledge.
My questions were mainly : How do you know a summon can't be teleported if he isn't in his original plan? How do you know all teleporting jutsu do not require the existence of this "summon dimenssion" as a space-time shortcut between two places on the regular dimenssion? And generally how do you know how they work?
And the answer to all of those question are : you don't have the slightest clue.

And whose chakra was used to summon Iruka with the scrolls? Certainely not Team 7's. So Iruka's? Or was the chakra used by the man who made the scroll when he created it?
Given this situation is it possible Suigetsu summoned Manda from the chakra previously stored into the scroll? Since we know for a fact that chakra can be stored into scroll/tattoo could this work for Sasuke/Orochimaru's tattoo as well?

And I find particulary ironic your comparison with Kabuto using his own strength to summon Manda whereas the guy was bleeding, unable to stand and from his own thought out of chakra just before he finally found the strength to quickly jump toward Oro, too his blood and summoned Manda in barely any time.

To keep it simple, even Itachi seems mortal compared to Sasuke, right now. I guess this would clarify my views on that.

Itachi received more hype with the double spread showing him standing between the statue of two gods representing his eyes than Sasuke in 20 chapters.
At this point Itachi already defeated the opponents Sasuke faced this arc except he defeated them when he was about 11 years old and with ease.

Even before Naruto did try summoning, Jiraiya didn't believe for a second that he could have summoned with his own chakra, even if he had perfect chakra control. Why else would he make him understand that he has to use Kyuubi's chakra to summon? And, it is not even for Gamabunta, but, possibly a lower level one.

Lower one like Tayuya's, Temari's, Kakashi's, Gai's, etc.? I guess they are all Jinchuuriki then.
It's irrelevant to the point I was making anyway, we know Naruto used way too much chakra than necessary, we know he had no talent for this jutsu and we know he used all the chakra the Kyubi gave to him to summon Gamabunta which however certainely doesn't mean the entirety of this chakra was necessary to summon him.
Hence we don't know in comparison how much chakra Sasuke needs to summon Manda. Much chakra yes, but how much? We don't know.

Crystal ball could have been used to find out about Oro and Sand's war plans. Instead of letting ANBU search, our crystal ball might have shown the truth Konoha has needed. Yet, it was not used. You can even make examples yourself, so, I don't think it was unnecessary. Is it really that hard to admit that it is one of Kishi's mistakes, and that is why he stopped using it? And, if that is the case, saying the same for Sasuke going to Manda's dimension is only natural...

Well you're doing it again, what is the range of the crystal ball? How does it work? Does it focus immediately on what you want or do you have to search?
And honestly so what anyway? Does it matter? Kishimoto once draw a gun in one of his panel. What a mistake! The story is destroyed!

Redundant? can you imagine what a person can do if he goes to another dimension, that might allow him to go beyond the contract. And, that is, for me, a really big problem for the story, at the level of contradicting by itself.

Yes I can, that would be a new use, and possibly an interesting one at that. I don't see any contradiction with any known previous fact however.

I only complain, when there is visible problems with what is going on, when the things are forced beyond the acceptable level. You see, you want to assume everything is correct, while I do consider the possiblity that the mangaka can make mistakes intentionally (because he cannot think of anything better, in the way he desires) or unintentionally.[/spoiler]

I'm not even going to comment again of your double standard about seeing visible problems. I do not assume everything is correct : the story is full of holes, like I said it's originally just a story for kids.
I do find however more amusing to find some logic in what happen instead of complaining perpetually about petty stuffs.
What you are doing right now is the exact opposite of what you say I'm doing : you want to assume everything is incorrect.
If for that Kisame's sword has to move backward then so be it.

[Sazelyt]

Originally Posted by Hunter

On a side note I think 25-30m is a great exageration anyway, look at the size of his Chidori sword meant to be 5m at the beginning of the chapter, the one he uses against the dragon seems twice as long at best.

Well, it was mentioned by another poster, so 20m is a reasonable length based on the picture...

While I agree about the standing part (I just think it was a red herring I don't think it was the case for the Sharingan : Sasuke kept it "on" even after his last Chidori Nagashi, Sasuke put it "off" only several pages later after Deidara's speech about those annoying eyes and even after that Deidara saw this as Sasuke underestimating him (ie he thought he had won) and not his usual assumption that Sasuke was out of chakra.

I would have agreed to that, if when Deidara decided to do something crazy, after it was obvious that the negotiations (Sasuke was assuming to happen) went down, Sasuke would have activated his eyes. He didn't not until the time it was about to explode. You must know as well, with his Sharingan, Sasuke would have stopped Deidara, by putting him into genjutsu and capture him to question him later. At Deidara's state it shouldn't be that difficult. But, it didn't happen. And, there is no explanation here other than he couldn't keep it on.

I wasn't talking about the 2 times / 4 times, I was talking how you presented Naruto regular state as twice as much as Kakashi whereas twice as much is only when Yamato is actively suppressing the Kyubi. Naruto has regulary about 100 fold more chakra than Kakashi, that's why he can spam Rasengan and Kage Bunshin in the first place.

Yamato actively suppressing Naruto does equal to Naruto intentionally not borrowing any additional power from Kyuubi. So, they seem to refer to the same thing.

This information was changed almost a year ago, this has nothing to do with Sasuke, Kishimoto probably just changed his mind about the amount of chakra Naruto is meant to have when the Kyubi is suppressed.

We don't know about that. I think he should at least have some idea on what he was planning about Sasuke - beating Oro - beating Deidara or other possible Akatsuki opponents, soon after he departs. Limiting Naruto to 2 means, he should limit Sasuke as well, which may limit his flexibilities a lot. So, yes, I believe, he had Sasuke in mind when increasing that amount for Naruto. You should know Naruto having 2 or 4 doesn't mean much as long as he borrows chakra from Kyuubi, but that means a lot if he were to be compared to someone at his age...

Of course you can claim that suddenly you can't summon almost instantaneously when it's a boss summon based on one (very arguable) example but it's ridiculous, it's like arguing Naruto can't summon Gamabunta against Gaara despite the fact that he did.

If the summon would have come immediately, Naruto wouldn't have appeared on his head that comfortably. At least, the pressure would have thrown Naruto quite far away.

We know you can summon almost instantaneously and we know Sasuke had to summon Manda almost instantaneously hence we know you can summon Godzilla class creature instantaneously and that's all there is to it.

Or, the easiest, he cannot, but for the sake of Sasuke, let's keep it under the carpet, and the base of our readers will not even question about that.

You take as premise to all your reasonning that the situation has to be illogical and try to stick to this premise but it doesn't make any sense. Using the same kind of reasonning you can arg that summoning isn't possible at all and the events where it happened are just ridiculous to begin with because Kishimoto loves Jiraiya/Orochimaru/Naruto/etc.

I try to compare it to other things that happen or that hadn't happened. If it happens only for Sasuke, doesn't that look strange for you? For me, it looks, and it doesn't take a lot to think that it is an extremely forced way of moving things. And, that path can easily lead to what I was saying.

What? The summon is still surrounded by smoke with the sfx of summoning apparition and the image also has directional speelines around the swrod so yeah the image does say everything. But really look at the kind of argument you are forced to make : I mean "Kisame's sword was moving backward"?
I can't believe you believe that yourself.

Didn't it come strange to you that this summon appeared in front of Naruto in the way Jiraiya desired? It is like I can summon, but let's send the summon 100 meters away. Isn't it easier to assume that he did summon, and let is reach Naruto afterwards. Just because I see smoke, which can be created by many things, I cannot erase what I think about the scene, including the summon being a special kind just like the easily accessible snakes.

Same than above, Kisame swinging is sword sloooowly in seconds, summoning being suddenly abnormal for unknown reason or previous scene being also illogical if they aren't contradicting a future scene you deem contraditory (which destroy your point that it's particulary illogical compared from previous scenes anyway), etc. Do you really believe what you are writting?

I am giving you what might have happened. Kisame is not intelligent but I don't think his idiocy is at the level of risking Naruto's death in a wild swing. And ,what was I contradicting. Did Kisame try to attack someone with goal of making him survive? Which scene I should compare to? An epxlosion flashing 100 times before exploding? Which one?

The upperhand? We know for a fact the examples I used are Summoning jutsu and listed/named as such in the Data Book and the manga, you came with the allegation that they are different so the burden of proof is yours.

Are you sure about that? The summon appearing time being proportional to its size is a reasonable explanation. It doesn't have to make the summoning jutsu different for each summon, it just makes it happen in a more natural way.

I mean come on, what about I start to say this summoning from Sasuke was different than the other and didn't require any chakra? And then when people start asking me some proofs I just dodge the question and say they are the one who have to prove me wrong? It's a logical fallacy.

As long as Kuchiyose jutsu is involved (as we see in Manda's summoning by Sasuke, and by Suigetsu), it has to include the usage of chakra. There is no other explanation. Have you ever seen a ninjutsu technique that doesn't require chakra from the user. Well, if you want to claim that, go ahead, it will only make Kishi's writing more contradictory.

How do you know a summon can't be teleported if he isn't in his original plan?

What do you mean, it can't be teleported. It was summoned using Kuchiyose jutsu, so it has to come from its original dimension. Are you trying to create another dimension to save the argument? And, the unsummon happened after Sasuke entered Manda's mouth. So, I highly doubt, it was Sasuke who did the teleport, otherwise he could have for himself without summoning Manda. And, it was Manda's unsomming, so naturally it should appear in its own dimension. Anyway, this didn't happen before for anyone, even with someone that has highly reasonable summons. It has never been mentioned, despite that we see a lot of summoning related talks and actions. Suigetsu made a mention that it is not something that you can see from other (he made a very surprised expression). And, it was one of his plans, considering that Suigetsu did also say something like "he did it".

How do you know all teleporting jutsu do not require the existence of this "summon dimenssion" as a space-time shortcut between two places on the regular dimenssion?

If it is Manda who do the unsummon, it shouldn't go anywhere other than the dimension he usually goes. I think it really doesn't work by making the teleport jutsu a train ride. It should go to one place and come from one place, at least for the Kuchiyose jutsu. Do you see what you are trying to do here? You are trying to explain something that doesn't even have a mention of it before, while I was trying to combine what we are given before.

And generally how do you know how they work?
And the answer to all of those question are : you don't have the slightest clue.

We have clues that this is something that is only achieved by Sasuke, and it is only be allowed for Sasuke. It is strange, very very strange...

Given this situation is it possible Suigetsu summoned Manda from the chakra previously stored into the scroll? Since we know for a fact that chakra can be stored into scroll/tattoo could this work for Sasuke/Orochimaru's tattoo as well?

Suigetsu used Kuchiyose on the ground, and we haven't seen any kind of chakra transfer between them. As long as someone uses the jutsu himself, it should be his chakra that would do the summoning, unless there is an obvious chakra transfer there (which is something you can argue in Kabuto's case, but in Sasuke's case, Sasuke was absent, nothing happened that suggests what you think of).

And I find particulary ironic your comparison with Kabuto using his own strength to summon Manda whereas the guy was bleeding, unable to stand and from his own thought out of chakra just before he finally found the strength to quickly jump toward Oro, too his blood and summoned Manda in barely any time.

Yes, I do indeed find it strange. But, as I said many times before (which can be used for Kakashi, Deidara, etc.), I don't mind a single chakra consuming jutsu to take place when the person is at the verge of deplete. In our case, it was allowed for Manda summoning, not the things coming after that. And, by the way, my main concern was not the summoning of Manda, but the things appearing after that, including, Manda appearing immediately, both Manda and Sasuke eating some explosion, and it is enough to kill Manda, who might be hundreds or thousands times more durable than Sasuke, but still, that explosion is not enough for Sasuke to die.

Itachi received more hype with the double spread showing him standing between the statue of two gods representing his eyes than Sasuke in 20 chapters.
At this point Itachi already defeated the opponents Sasuke faced this arc except he defeated them when he was about 11 years old and with ease.

Oh, yes Itachi beat those using what Sasuke exactly could do. But, Sasuke also did what Itachi couldn't do, including mind reading, Kyuubi suppressing, dimensional crossing.

Lower one like Tayuya's, Temari's, Kakashi's, Gai's, etc.? I guess they are all Jinchuuriki then.

Who knows, maybe yes.

It's irrelevant to the point I was making anyway, we know Naruto used way too much chakra than necessary, we know he had no talent for this jutsu and we know he used all the chakra the Kyubi gave to him to summon Gamabunta which however certainely doesn't mean the entirety of this chakra was necessary to summon him.

Hence we don't know in comparison how much chakra Sasuke needs to summon Manda. Much chakra yes, but how much? We don't know.

A summon is only valuable if you can bring something valuable in back. Many of Jiraiya's summons are big, bigger, and biggest frogs. So, maybe Jiraiya didn't assume Naruto had enough chakra for that. I don't find it illogical. But, for boss summons, it should be much larger than what you require for others. I am not going to lower the chakra requirement for that just to save Sasuke's a..

Well you're doing it again, what is the range of the crystal ball? How does it work? Does it focus immediately on what you want or do you have to search?

It does work around the forests in Konoha, so, it has a reasonable range, enough to track any kind of movement around. The point is it was something beyond the story, so it was ignored, just like the jutsu Sasuke used. It is disposable, because it is indeed out of story's context, it was used to save someone, nothing more.

What you are doing right now is the exact opposite of what you say I'm doing : you want to assume everything is incorrect.
If for that Kisame's sword has to move backward then so be it.

No, I try to understand something, whether it has some consistency problems based on what we are shown before, or not. Kisame's sword moving backward is more logical than what happened with the jutsu of the Akatsuki leader that is used to create a double of Kisame in addition to a perfect clone of his almost living sword.