Gundam Seed/Seed Destiny General Discussion Thread

[rakusukira]

Lacus is a complex character. it's hard to actually predict what she is thinking. but her development in seed was something i really like. she was presented to us as an airhead.. but actually, she is feigning ignorance. she surely knows her strength and limitations and uses them to her advantage. you can say she can be manipulative in a good way.

meeting Kira was a turning point in her personality. It was Kira's kindness that drove Lacus to also fight for her own beliefs. You can say that Kira was influenced by Lacus but Lacus was also influenced by Kira.

She was willing to make it work between her and Athrun, but it was plainly obvious that Athrun was pushing her away. He probably only saw her naivety and never looked deeper. He alwasy thought Lacus didn't understand anything about wars. but when Lacus actually saved Athrun and started a faction of her own, that was the time Athrun was proved wrong.

Cagalli: "Isn't she your fiance?"
Athrun: "Ex-fiance... because I was a fool..."

and perhaps Athrun did actually "love" her

[winter45]

Originally Posted by Kusa-San

In reality she's really smart. That's why she's a good politician.

Not to burst your bubble but ive met some really dumb politicians in my tour of duty, so high intelligence isnt always a politician win trait. Manipulation, presumptuous, self righteousness and personal agenda's, are some traits i see common in politic.... OH WAIT!!!!

Originally Posted by Kusa-San

Lacus doesn't need more development. She's great as she is....

Your definition of great is different to mine so ill leave it as it is.

Originally Posted by Kusa-San

We don't need another usual relationship with drama and all. The appeal in her relationship with Kira is that their bond is stronger than anything, their love is stronger than anything. Their bond will never be broken. They know that. This kind of relationship is really rare and that's why it's great. .

Id rather see an intersting relationship than your version of great.

Originally Posted by Kusa-San

If you want your usual relationship, you have many other pairing like that in GS and GSD.

Who says that usual relationships cannot be great?



@rakusukira
For the most part i dont think lacus is thinking, to me its more of re-acting/responding to situations.

To your comment "He probably only saw her naivety and never looked deeper." How is he suppose to look deeper if she hasnt showed him her other traits and characteristics? Does he have to pass some stupid test?

Guess he has to be a mind reader

[Kusa-San]

It seems you misunderstood me : of course an usual relationship can be great. I like them too ! But, the reason that I like so much Kira and Lacus pairing it's because it's rare.

[winter45]

@kusa-san

That is fine

if you use the word *rare* instead of *great* I would of understood your pov much clearer.

[Faerie]

Kusa-san, would you mind to elaborate what you mean when you say she doesn't need development and is fine the way she is? I'm interested because I, after initially liking her was disappointed later.
If a character is presented to me as an "airhead" in the beginning, and a political figure later on, I would like some reasons why and how they got there, and it is for this reason (not even her relationship, I'm fine with that) imo she's not "great as she is" without further development.

This point becomes quite obvious, when you compare her to another character in a similar setting, such as Relena. Similar function, but executed so much better.

[monster]

Originally Posted by SkullFaerie

If a character is presented to me as an "airhead" in the beginning, and a political figure later on, I would like some reasons why and how they got there

I thought it was pretty self-explanatory: Lacus is not an "airhead," she simply acts disarmingly when she wants to be or when she feels the need to be, such as when finding herself to be inside an AF warship filled with naturals who might be antagonized enough as it is by her genetic heritage.

[winter45]

@skullfaerie

Even tho i reluctantly agree with Monster, from a character creation standpoint i believe the aim was to make the viewers be more sympathetic with the character lacus from the get go. So when her transition from *cute* to *strong* and back, Viewers will easily define her character as monster last reply.

Going to take a guess that your take of the character lacus is like an alarm bells ringing, warning you that she may be deceptive.

[Faerie]

@monster: not my words, I was quoting Kusa-san . I am aware of what you said, but it's not what I meant. You're talking about why she acted that way, and I'm talking about her nature (as shown when she's at her home) and how she got from being a normal girl like that to what she is.


@winter 45 no, actually, funnily I didn't get any of those deceptive vibes from her. I figured she was genuinely good-hearted. Possibly it would cross my mind nowadays, because there's a lot of deconstruction going on what with shows like Madoka and Mirai Nikki taking traditionally cute and good characters apart.
But I know that others brought up the idea that Lacus could be evil it's an interesting idea actually...

I agree about her friendly nature being interpreted as a protective measure, but again, I was talking about her transition not being explained.
She was a girl that talks to robots, willing to wed Athrun, living in a mansion. Maybe she was politically minded then already, but why? Basically in comparison to Relena: she was also smart from the beginning, but she had to work her way to understanding how stuff works and what she really wants. Lacus just was perfect from the start, and that makes for a less realistic character.

[Washu-Chan]

It's known that Lacus was CE's equivalent of Relena, but what other characters in Gundam (or outside of it) wuold Lacus be based on? Here's what's known so far:

• MSG: Lalah
• Wing: Relena
• Turn A: Dianna
• Macross: Lynn Minmay
• Oh My Goddess: Belldandy

Fukuda claimed that Turn A was one of his favorite Gundam works. Here are some of the Turn A references in GS and GSD?

• Kira = Loran
• Lacus = Dianna
• Fllay = Sochie
• Kira's romance angle is almost similar to Loran's (mixed-race relationship [Kira/Fllay similar to Loran/Sochie], chastity relationship [Kira/Lacus similar to Loran/Dianna])
• Copernicus City is designed after one of the cities in Turn A
• Appearance of a space whale
• Lacus drew a Turn A-like mustache on her navy-blue Haro

[Znozzy]

How is Lacus similar to Lalah, Relena, Dianna or even Lynn minmay?

i don't see any connection, minus that both Minmay and Lacus are idols, she isnt a prostitute like Lalah, nor is she a Newtype, or ends up dead, a motherfigure for the Orphans? sure, that's true, but other than that? can't see her being similar to any of the other characters you mentioned

Mind elaborating on what you find similar in those characters compared to Lacus?

[Kusa-San]

Originally Posted by SkullFaerie

Kusa-san, would you mind to elaborate what you mean when you say she doesn't need development and is fine the way she is? I'm interested because I, after initially liking her was disappointed later.
If a character is presented to me as an "airhead" in the beginning, and a political figure later on, I would like some reasons why and how they got there, and it is for this reason (not even her relationship, I'm fine with that) imo she's not "great as she is" without further development.

This point becomes quite obvious, when you compare her to another character in a similar setting, such as Relena. Similar function, but executed so much better.

As I said in my previous post, Lacus has always been protrayed as a girl who is smart and know how to use her influence (GS 12/13). It's not surprising since her father is "smart" and a politician. About the character development : Character development =! great character and of course, character development != bad character. It's not because a character doesn't have character development that he's bad. I like Lacus because of her personnality, behaviour, design and her song.


PS : Your avatar is great ! (Zessica <3 )

[monster]

Originally Posted by SkullFaerie

@monster: not my words, I was quoting Kusa-san . I am aware of what you said, but it's not what I meant. You're talking about why she acted that way, and I'm talking about her nature (as shown when she's at her home) and how she got from being a normal girl like that to what she is.

What about her nature? When she's at home, Lacus is relaxed and happy, when she's in command of a battleship, she's more serious. There's nothing abnormal about that.

Originally Posted by SkullFaerie

Basically in comparison to Relena: she was also smart from the beginning, but she had to work her way to understanding how stuff works and what she really wants. Lacus just was perfect from the start, and that makes for a less realistic character.

It's their settings.

Lacus grew up as a coordinator and it's normal for other coordinators her age (as of the time of SEED) to take more responsibilities, such as fighting as soldiers in wars. Her engagement to Athrun may be seen as part of the same rules that affected Gilbert and Talia in Destiny, or it may just be for political purposes. Either way, Lacus has some sort of involvement in the political aspects of her country.

In comparison, Relena grew up for the most part as an ordinary rich girl going to an ordinary rich school in a time of relative peace, as far as I remember.

You might think Relena's case is more realistic, but as far as their respective settings are concerned, I think they both fit in just the same.

[Arya]

I have the same idea of Kusa-San and rakusukira on Lacus. From my point of view what I like and liked about her character is that she grown along the show. First time we saw her she was presented as an air-head girl, but in retrospect from her position, captive on an enemy ship, that was a smart play, better than state I'm Lacus Clyne, don't you know who my father is? Even in early Atrhun interactions, it was not so strange that she showed him a mask and not who she truly was. Why would she had to? For what we know Atrhun was simply a fiancee. Neither his lover, nor a close friend. Plus her father and his father weren't in good terms. And I don't go with further implications related to internal politic.
The writers so kept her in the shadows in the early episodes. At first I didn't like her so much, i don't like airhead characters usually. But when she met with Kira she started to show her true nature. Kind and resolute. Just only this, let her true self emerge, showed me how her feeling toward Kira were genuine and strong (Obviously giving him a gundam was such a big move that looks "a bit" out of proportions. I'm not stating there are no flows here and there. I'm trying to explain why I like her and the Kira/Lacus couple). Then we got the Athrun confrontation at the theater. Where she showed us that she can raise her voice too
either being showed as a fine politician at the end is not so strange. If we assume that she was a bit smart in the first place, counting that his father was a great politician, I see nothing wrong for her to excelling in it in her way. But you need to revise things in retrospect.

So you could say she didn't grow at all because she was smart from the start. But the result is the same, I started thinking we were dealing with some airhead and finished with the exact opposite. And it wasn't that we discovered it at the last episode. I.e. on the archangel she opened a locked door, quite good for an airhead girl.
From my point of view it was and it is quite refreshing.

From the couple prospective I'll add that usually in anime is not such a big mystery guessing the pairing and what I get usually from characters in shows are people with their defined character and a defined person they are meant to be with. Especially in action anime series. In GS, we have to remember it is a show from 10 years ago, we got even a twist in the middle of the show, predictable or not, when Kira seemed to be involved first with Cagalli (let me pass this) then with Fllay for real, having Lacus pledged to Kira's best friend. Not so simple as a situation.
Again, I started with a kind of setting and finished with something else. It would have been easy to fall to a simple harem like sub-plot but they didn't.
I'm supposed to be watching a mecha anime, so what I'm looking for is entertainment first. And much more back in 2002. So such a plot was something I really enjoyed. More because it was not the main focus, so it could have flaws, b/c in the meanwhile they were fighting a global war

I like when they change things along the road in a good way. Obviously I liked Fllay more it would be another story.

To close, the fact that she (them) has such a short time on screen is good or bad, because it all up to us to decide how things has gone off screen. As my signature says, the meaning of things lies not in the things themselves but in our attitude towards them. And it is more true in these cases. You can see what you want to see. And probably it is one of the reasons she/them are so loved (and hated).

Now you could start nitpicking

[winter45]

@SkullFaerie

With the deception reply

Ive done basic Psych courses while in service. In alot of cases, for someone with lacus background to play air-head/ditz/loon normally would give signs of playing Dumb which is deceptive by nature. She may have her reasons why but the action itself is deceptive. But there is a possibility her air-haired part is of a non deliberate nature she has, but im not buying it.

Later we are shown is that she acts with different traits. I would even go so far to say that she may change her actions of behavior due to plot and story over character reasoning. This could explain the *Bi-polar see-saw* traits she has.

I made that point in the *lacus the plothole character thread.* Unfortunately as years went by, i wouldn't know exactly where.


In regards of lacus being evil, really its not so much in that way of thinking. Posters such as myself fall in the category and generalizing here that her actions and incentives are more selfish and self righteous. Enforcing her sides justice by violence. In short ill just label her as *Bitch*

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by winter45

Later we are shown is that she acts with different traits. I would even go so far to say that she may change her actions of behavior due to plot and story over character reasoning. This could explain the *Bi-polar see-saw* traits she has.

You’re right. A lot of characters’ flaws in SEED & Destiny is due to the lackluster script. In fact, lots of human inner conflicts and social issues in SEED & Destiny are often simplified very much or abandoned altogether in order to move the story forward. One major example is how on earth a (supposedly advanced, strong and first-world) country like ORB allows a guy like Yuna Roma Seiran to be in full charge of the whole nation? Seriously, not even a developing country like mine will be fool enough to have a president like him .

With a lacking script like that, It surprises me that people can go this far discussing some characters' logic/feelings/reasoning/thinking in these shows. And no, I'm not blaming or dissing those who discuss/argue about characters in this thread. I still blame the script .

Originally Posted by winter45

In regards of lacus being evil, really its not so much in that way of thinking. Posters such as myself fall in the category and generalizing here that her actions and incentives are more selfish and self righteous. Enforcing her sides justice by violence. In short ill just label her as *Bitch*

Your statement is right in a way. Still, would you call Lacus who wanted to stop the EA from bombarding her homeland with nukes selfish? How about when she begged Patrick Zala’s faction not to vaporize the earth before taking desperate measure? Is that self-righteous bitchness? I don’t think so. Destroying a planet with its people (that’s billions of innocent lives) is just crazy and must be stopped (just like Char in CCA). Also, (from what was shown in the anime) Lacus never forced anyone on her side to follow her nor does she uses deception like Durandal’s sweet words. She told them (either by herself or through Kira, Andrew, Murrue) the reality of the situation that she knows without hiding anything.

As for Lacus in Destiny, I never really care about her characterization in that series coz the script/plot is worse than in SEED. So, it goes without saying that her character and some others (Cagalli, anyone?) became worse than before .

[Bonta Kun]

Watching this series again just reminded me that I still have this thing for Murrue
And actually same can be said for Natarle as well(it's her bitchy attitude I actually quite like)
Guess my thing for the more mature woman played strong here in regards to SEED

I still stand by this being a rather mediocre anime overall but yet I do like it alot, it has that undescribable entertainment factor to it.
It clickes despite it's so-so production values

[Ledgem]

Originally Posted by winter45

Ive done basic Psych courses while in service. In alot of cases, for someone with lacus background to play air-head/ditz/loon normally would give signs of playing Dumb which is deceptive by nature. She may have her reasons why but the action itself is deceptive. But there is a possibility her air-haired part is of a non deliberate nature she has, but im not buying it.

You have to suspend some sense of reality with these characters... but honestly, doesn't that apply to nearly all anime? After going on a 2-3 year anime hiatus, I tried to get back into watching series and felt as if I was viewing interactions between mental institution escapees who were off their medications. Gundam Seed has more believable characters, as far as anime series go... but if a number of these characters could be drawn into real life, they'd still come off as very strange.

Originally Posted by winter45

Later we are shown is that she acts with different traits. I would even go so far to say that she may change her actions of behavior due to plot and story over character reasoning. This could explain the *Bi-polar see-saw* traits she has.

I found this particular aspect of Lacus believable. When we first meet her, she's somewhat care-free and unburdened by responsibility. She knows her status and the importance that goes with it, and knows how to play the part, but it isn't who she is. With the death of her father, she's forced to take on more responsibility. The happy, care-free Lacus of the beginning of the series largely disappears, perhaps out of circumstance or necessity.

Originally Posted by winter45

In regards of lacus being evil, really its not so much in that way of thinking. Posters such as myself fall in the category and generalizing here that her actions and incentives are more selfish and self righteous. Enforcing her sides justice by violence. In short ill just label her as *Bitch*

I think this raises an interesting moral/ethical thought line. I felt that Lacus was trying to fight for peace; basically, she was for the "greater good." That was the angle that the series tried to present, I thought. Of course, whenever fighting is involved, and whenever you're trying to change something that will affect many people, things are never quite as clear-cut.

While Gundam Seed was fairly straight-forward about defining a good and bad side based on what each was fighting for (peace vs. genocide), I felt that Gundam Seed Destiny wasn't as straight-forward. Dullindal was clearly cast as the villain, but the Destiny plan wasn't outwardly evil. In fact, such a thing might have been beneficial. Even though I far preferred Seed to Destiny, I liked that thought-provoking aspect of the series.

[winter45]

@Obelisk ze Tormentor

To your second part of your post.

Some of those examples you gave were not the target points i was aiming at even tho as stated i am generalizing so forgive me from being not direct which examples.

Her general approach to getting things done has rarely been Un-violent solutions. She inserts her own reasoning and ignores long term projections. AS like anime most cases everything works out without in depth explanation, now my angle is that when she steps in causing military and political disruptions she is disrupting lives at the risk of others instead of dealing her pov perpetrators she has issues with.

Certainly she cannot just upright go to patrick or gilert upfront but her actions/decisions still stands how she deals with her dilemma.




@Ledgem

First point

We do need from time to time to use RL as a guide to understand anime characters or the show itself. Not that im disagreeing with you just wanted to point out its a valid method to when necessarily to dissect aspects of a show.


@2nd point.

Problem i had with lacus in many ways is that there is little transition between her character personality. It does feel knee-jerk to many viewers including myself. To me tho it comes off as viewers have to Analyse her limited responses and draw an explanation instead the show showing us the explanation. But this debate itself has been going for years. This is my take on it and not that im trying to convince anyone to jump over to the other side.


@3rd point

Would love to discuss ethical/moraility on general levels but its a topic that will have no end. But i do like your post in regarding this.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by winter45

Certainly she cannot just upright go to patrick or gilert upfront but her actions/decisions still stands how she deals with her dilemma.

You have a point there. In short, "not everybody can be Gandhi", right? Of course, if we have Gandhi-like Lacus, all those Gundams and Astrays she had under her command would just be marching into space and become martyrs.

[monster]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

In fact, lots of human inner conflicts and social issues in SEED & Destiny are often simplified very much or abandoned altogether in order to move the story forward. One major example is how on earth a (supposedly advanced, strong and first-world) country like ORB allows a guy like Yuna Roma Seiran to be in full charge of the whole nation? Seriously, not even a developing country like mine will be fool enough to have a president like him .

Yuna was never "in full charge of the whole nation."

I'll just quote GundamOfficial on this:

"In Orb's complex political system, power is shared between an elected assembly and representatives of the five noble families who originally ruled over the islands."