(CR) Holmes at Kyoto Teramachi Sanjō

[SilverGlavenus]

Ha! Take that, you cheating, opportunistic fuckers.

Edit: Just when I thought that the ex-boyfriend/girlfriend thing is going for too long, they took care of it in one episode, and even set up for Holmes and Aoi. Really nice.

[orion]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Yeah, the high schoolers are more forgivable for reasons of youth, but still. I'm glad Holmes was able to use his looks and charisma to make them eat their hearts out.

Well...Holmes is the better "catch". Looks, education, charisma, wealth and actually cares and has Aoi's back.

The only down-side is that he reads her like a book.

[BWTraveller]

I feel just a little more compassion for Sanae than Katsumi. Yes, they're both real pieces of work who didn't really demonstrate remorse for their actions. But Sanae seemed to get closer to it and I think she realized a bit of their hypocrisy when Katsumi started to angrily tell Aoi the very things she'd wanted to tell them. I'd say Katsumi's a total lost cause, but with a little time and work Sanae might actually have a chance at legitimate contrition and maybe even redemption.

[orion]

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

I feel just a little more compassion for Sanae than Katsumi. Yes, they're both real pieces of work who didn't really demonstrate remorse for their actions. But Sanae seemed to get closer to it and I think she realized a bit of their hypocrisy when Katsumi started to angrily tell Aoi the very things she'd wanted to tell them. I'd say Katsumi's a total lost cause, but with a little time and work Sanae might actually have a chance at legitimate contrition and maybe even redemption.

I suspect that Sanae is probably not "wired" like that. If a girl is going to "take" another girl's boyfriend, she usually doesn't feel sorry about it. The whole drama was just for "show" only.

Prob someone else in the group (not the actual couple) had an issue.

But yeah! College guys always trumps high school guys!

[FlareKnight]

I'm impressed at how utterly despicable they made both the couple and their friends. Really wonder if there was a single person in that group that actually cared about and respected Aoi as a person. I know she left the area, but seriously the lack of anyone who thought "wow this is pretty scummy" is impressive. It does make Katsumi and Sanae easy to hate. Both are terrible people.

Oh well at least that should make it easier for Aoi to move on. Sure it hurts horribly, but at least she doesn't have anything tying her back to them. They didn't care about her in the slightest and simply wanted to smooth over any feelings of guilt that were bothering them.

Now can get the ball rolling on the obvious and eventual pairing of Holmes and Aoi.

[SilverGlavenus]

^Meh, even in real life, you can't know what people say behind your backs. What made me surprised is how blatant these friends are covering up for each other. And the ex boyfriend was the epitome of hypocrisy.

Holmes' ex-girlfriend is also opportunistic and manipulative. She could not look past Holmes' respect for her and his wish to keep their relationship healthy, even though he is somewhat preservative in his ways. Obviously when things started to go sideways, she started to compare Holmes to her husband and began to regret. At least Holmes did not fall for that, as he knows he deserves someone better. That's how you make a manly character, polite yet at the same time decisive.

Now what I'm curious about is whether they will go all the way with Holmes x Aoi ship. I seriously don't like having an open ending.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

I feel just a little more compassion for Sanae than Katsumi. Yes, they're both real pieces of work who didn't really demonstrate remorse for their actions. But Sanae seemed to get closer to it and I think she realized a bit of their hypocrisy when Katsumi started to angrily tell Aoi the very things she'd wanted to tell them. I'd say Katsumi's a total lost cause, but with a little time and work Sanae might actually have a chance at legitimate contrition and maybe even redemption.

I think that was just jealousy. She didn't like the idea Katsumi still had enough lingering feelings to get upset over Aoi "getting a new boyfriend".

I also think that if anyone convinced Aoi's "girl friends" to pressure her into "forgiving" them, it would have been Sanae. Katsumi would have less pull with them.

[SeijiSensei]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

I think that was just jealousy. She didn't like the idea Katsumi still had enough lingering feelings to get upset over Aoi "getting a new boyfriend".

That was my take on the scene as well. Sanae didn't take too well to seeing Katsumi have a jealousy fit over Aoi possibly dating someone new.

[orion]

Originally Posted by SeijiSensei

That was my take on the scene as well. Sanae didn't take too well to seeing Katsumi have a jealousy fit over Aoi possibly dating someone new.

I agree also. Katsumi got jelly over Holmes and got whacked.

Sanae needs to find someone better. He's not reliable.

Originally Posted by SilverGlavenus

<snip>
Now what I'm curious about is whether they will go all the way with Holmes x Aoi ship. I seriously don't like having an open ending.

I'd love to see how far the ship sails too now that there aren't any obstructions left. We already know that he's running the store in his future, but Aoi is full of lots of potential opportunities. Will she major in antiquities and help run the business? Will she do something else?

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by orion

I agree also. Katsumi got jelly over Holmes and got whacked.

Sanae needs to find someone better. He's not reliable.

Eh. I'd say they deserve each other. Same thing for Holmes' ex and her husband.

[BWTraveller]

I only spoke of possibility, that her deep bow and desperate apology, along with her anger at his reaction, suggests simply a possibility that she might have some little kernel of heart within her that actually realizes what she'd done and how horrible her actions now are. And therefore, if that seed could grow, I see a potential for eventual redemption in the distant future. For now, yeah she's a real piece of work and undeserving of Aoi's forgiveness. After a few years, who knows. Can't see Katsumi redeeming himself after that stupid outburst, but at least perhaps Sanae can. Like maybe after college when she's finally had a few years to mature.

[Guardian Enzo]

Originally Posted by orion

I agree also. Katsumi got jelly over Holmes and got whacked.

Sanae needs to find someone better. He's not reliable.

And she is??

I'd say they both got exactly who they deserve. As did Kiyotaka's old girlfriend.

[Cloudedmind]

I do kind of wish the situations with Kiyotaka's ex, and Aoi's ex's (friend and boyfriend) had been given more complexity then just they're pretty much bad people because they left a couple of "nice guys", and got what they deserve. But that's asking to much for a show such as this.

[Guardian Enzo]

That kind of thing does happen an awful lot in RL though, in my experience.

[Cloudedmind]

If you mean people leaving someone to be with someone else, then yeah it does. What I meant by complexity was how the whole situation was painted with a very shallow brush. The notion that leaving someone to be with or find someone else who gives you what you want is bad. People have all kinds of needs and wants, and someone deciding that the person they're with just isn't giving them what they want and would rather find someone who does isn't a bad thing in itself in my opinion.

A 16 year deciding that he'd rather be with a girlfriend he can actually hang out with and breaking up with the one he can't shouldn't need to be viewed as villainous. A grown woman deciding she'd rather be in a relationship with someone she can be intimate with (Kiyotaka mentioned them remaining chaste, and pure because of his family name, so my assumption is her decision was partly based on sex or sexual things in nature) and break up with the one she can't be intimate with, doesn't make her a slut or a hoe.

Of course the fact that they both seemed to do these things behind Aoi's and Kiyotaka's back is a problem, but the show could have been less black and white and more grey (like the ex's actually being up front and discussing things with Aoi and Kiyotaka) in regards to how everything could have been portrayed, at least that's how I feel.

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by Cloudedmind

If you mean people leaving someone to be with someone else, then yeah it does. What I meant by complexity was how the whole situation was painted with a very shallow brush. The notion that leaving someone to be with or find someone else who gives you what you want is bad. People have all kinds of needs and wants, and someone deciding that the person they're with just isn't giving them what they want and would rather find someone who does isn't a bad thing in itself in my opinion.

A 16 year deciding that he'd rather be with a girlfriend he can actually hang out with and breaking up with the one he can't shouldn't need to be viewed as villainous. A grown woman deciding she'd rather be in a relationship with someone she can be intimate with (Kiyotaka mentioned them remaining chaste, and pure because of his family name, so my assumption is her decision was partly based on sex or sexual things in nature) and break up with the one she can't be intimate with, doesn't make her a slut or a hoe.

Of course the fact that they both seemed to do these things behind Aoi's and Kiyotaka's back is a problem, but the show could have been less black and white and more grey (like the ex's actually being up front and discussing things with Aoi and Kiyotaka) in regards to how everything could have been portrayed, at least that's how I feel.

The reason it was treated as shallow wasn't because the person moved on and found someone else, it's because the person jumped to someone else and is implied to have done so very quickly. Dumping a person because of issues and then a bit later later taking a relationship with someone else is not necessarily shallow, but it's another story if you specifically dump someone FOR someone else as is implied here. It suggests that the relationship they had meant little if anything to them. Especially if the new love is someone who's more looks and style than substance as with Kiyotaka's ex, or if the existing relationships are so close that a moment's thought would make it clear that this would seriously hurt the ex as is the case with Aoi. And this too happens, far too often.

As far as the sex, the way I remember it he didn't say he was remaining chaste for reputation, but rather on account of their upcoming exams and studies. I got the impression he wanted them to wait until they had more freedom to be with one another, and she wasn't willing to wait the relatively short period. He only seemed to bring up reputation when it came to the new, shallow proposition, and yeah I too would be worried about hits to mine and my family's reputation if I was caught with a married woman. And I agree that feeling lonely over lack of intimacy doesn't necessarily make a woman or man a bad person or anything. Refusing to accept a reasonable and temporary hold on some acts when one's partner takes the effort to make one's feelings clear on the other hand is something I'd be a little annoyed with. I've heard a number of people who were committed to only having sex after marriage and were upfront about this, and took effort to make it clear to their beloved that their love was true and deep, and still their partner dumped them claiming that their failure to go back on their own conviction meant they didn't love them. You don't need sex to be intimate after all.

[Cloudedmind]

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

The reason it was treated as shallow wasn't because the person moved on and found someone else, it's because the person jumped to someone else and is implied to have done so very quickly. Dumping a person because of issues and then a bit later later taking a relationship with someone else is not necessarily shallow, but it's another story if you specifically dump someone FOR someone else as is implied here. It suggests that the relationship they had meant little if anything to them. Especially if the new love is someone who's more looks and style than substance as with Kiyotaka's ex, or if the existing relationships are so close that a moment's thought would make it clear that this would seriously hurt the ex as is the case with Aoi. And this too happens, far too often.

As far as the sex, the way I remember it he didn't say he was remaining chaste for reputation, but rather on account of their upcoming exams and studies. I got the impression he wanted them to wait until they had more freedom to be with one another, and she wasn't willing to wait the relatively short period. He only seemed to bring up reputation when it came to the new, shallow proposition, and yeah I too would be worried about hits to mine and my family's reputation if I was caught with a married woman. And I agree that feeling lonely over lack of intimacy doesn't necessarily make a woman or man a bad person or anything. Refusing to accept a reasonable and temporary hold on some acts when one's partner takes the effort to make one's feelings clear on the other hand is something I'd be a little annoyed with. I've heard a number of people who were committed to only having sex after marriage and were upfront about this, and took effort to make it clear to their beloved that their love was true and deep, and still their partner dumped them claiming that their failure to go back on their own conviction meant they didn't love them. You don't need sex to be intimate after all.

I get that, and that's my point (Although I disagree that dumping someone for someone else is necessarily a bad thing. Better to sever the relationship then to cheat if you're finding your heart is swayed in another direction.) the show specifically paints a black and white situation, thus making both events shallow, so we feel even sorrier for Aoi and Kiyokata. Instead it could have used situations that could be seen as more grey, where all individuals positions could be seen as valid or understandable. Perhaps regrettable, but at least understandable. The show choose to go the shallow route, and that's my particular criticism (although in the grand scheme of things it's mostly minor) here.

Also, it was both in regards to Kiyotaka, he wanted to wait until after exams were over as well as uphold his family name. He says this in the conversation he has with Aoi back in episode three, not four when his ex shows up now married. So, that chaste and pure statement had nothing to do with her being married. I do find it interesting that she dumps him shortly after they start college. Japanese college entrance exams happen around January/February, the start of a new school year, which would include most Japanese colleges is in April. So, how long after exams was she supposed to wait? While I certainly wouldn't expect him to jump right to it right after putting the pencil down, it looks like even two or so months later he still hadn't done anything, at least not to her liking or satisfaction.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with someone wanting to wait until after marriage to have sex, but there's also nothing wrong with someone deciding even perhaps later down the road, that no, they really can't or don't want to wait. Neither person should try to force or guilt trip the other. Saying, "If you really loved me you'll wait", or saying "If you really loved me you'll just have sex", is equally wrong if you ask me. While you can be intimate without sex, plenty of people, at least many of whom I've talked to or have heard speak on the subject consider sexual compatibility important for a good relationship. Not the most important thing, but important. Once you get married it's a little to late to learn one partner only wants to do it missionary while the other wants to try doggy style.

Anyway mild jokes aside, what she wanted could have been more benign then sex. I just used sex because of the word choices (chaste and pure) for the translation.

[Guardian Enzo]

Originally Posted by Cloudedmind

If you mean people leaving someone to be with someone else, then yeah it does. What I meant by complexity was how the whole situation was painted with a very shallow brush. The notion that leaving someone to be with or find someone else who gives you what you want is bad. People have all kinds of needs and wants, and someone deciding that the person they're with just isn't giving them what they want and would rather find someone who does isn't a bad thing in itself in my opinion.

Well, what I meant was more or less nice people getting dumped for flashier people.

[orion]

Originally Posted by Cloudedmind

I get that, and that's my point (Although I disagree that dumping someone for someone else is necessarily a bad thing. Better to sever the relationship then to cheat if you're finding your heart is swayed in another direction.) the show specifically paints a black and white situation, thus making both events shallow, so we feel even sorrier for Aoi and Kiyokata. Instead it could have used situations that could be seen as more grey, where all individuals positions could be seen as valid or understandable. Perhaps regrettable, but at least understandable. The show choose to go the shallow route, and that's my particular criticism (although in the grand scheme of things it's mostly minor) here.

Also, it was both in regards to Kiyotaka, he wanted to wait until after exams were over as well as uphold his family name. He says this in the conversation he has with Aoi back in episode three, not four when his ex shows up now married. So, that chaste and pure statement had nothing to do with her being married. I do find it interesting that she dumps him shortly after they start college. Japanese college entrance exams happen around January/February, the start of a new school year, which would include most Japanese colleges is in April. So, how long after exams was she supposed to wait? While I certainly wouldn't expect him to jump right to it right after putting the pencil down, it looks like even two or so months later he still hadn't done anything, at least not to her liking or satisfaction.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with someone wanting to wait until after marriage to have sex, but there's also nothing wrong with someone deciding even perhaps later down the road, that no, they really can't or don't want to wait. Neither person should try to force or guilt trip the other. Saying, "If you really loved me you'll wait", or saying "If you really loved me you'll just have sex", is equally wrong if you ask me. While you can be intimate without sex, plenty of people, at least many of whom I've talked to or have heard speak on the subject consider sexual compatibility important for a good relationship. Not the most important thing, but important. Once you get married it's a little to late to learn one partner only wants to do it missionary while the other wants to try doggy style.

Anyway mild jokes aside, what she wanted could have been more benign then sex. I just used sex because of the word choices (chaste and pure) for the translation.

I agree with what you're saying but I think you put more thought into those relationships than what we were prob meant to.

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by Cloudedmind

I get that, and that's my point (Although I disagree that dumping someone for someone else is necessarily a bad thing. Better to sever the relationship then to cheat if you're finding your heart is swayed in another direction.) the show specifically paints a black and white situation, thus making both events shallow, so we feel even sorrier for Aoi and Kiyokata. Instead it could have used situations that could be seen as more grey, where all individuals positions could be seen as valid or understandable. Perhaps regrettable, but at least understandable. The show choose to go the shallow route, and that's my particular criticism (although in the grand scheme of things it's mostly minor) here.

While it certainly is better than cheating, it's still pretty low IMHO to dump someone and immediately pick up with someone else. It somehow feels insulting, like declaring that the former love meant nothing at all. Like you just got tired of them and traded them in for a new model. I do agree that it might have done better to do things in a less callous, shallow way; perhaps have both parties break up and spend some time uninvolved, letting things cool down before approaching new love. Even be upfront about it, like maybe Katsumi or Sanae actually telling Aoi how they felt and apologizing before pursuing a relationship. It'd still hurt a lot and may make her feel pressured to give her blessing, but that's part of the reason a cool-off period would be crucial. In short, the author did a good job making the characters' actions shallow and cruel as you said. And yeah it might have been interesting to make them better, to have the MCs not have fallen for such worthless creatures, but sadly there are far too many legitimate break-ups like this. It would be true to reality to have them show some kindness and compassion, but it's also too true to reality for them to be the bastards they were.

Also, it was both in regards to Kiyotaka, he wanted to wait until after exams were over as well as uphold his family name. He says this in the conversation he has with Aoi back in episode three, not four when his ex shows up now married. So, that chaste and pure statement had nothing to do with her being married. I do find it interesting that she dumps him shortly after they start college. Japanese college entrance exams happen around January/February, the start of a new school year, which would include most Japanese colleges is in April. So, how long after exams was she supposed to wait? While I certainly wouldn't expect him to jump right to it right after putting the pencil down, it looks like even two or so months later he still hadn't done anything, at least not to her liking or satisfaction.

I know he said nothing about marriage. What he said certainly made it sound like he had a specific timeframe for a temporary chastity, as I suggested perhaps until things had gotten settled (like maybe after they'd gotten used to their classes and college life), and she wasn't able to wait that long. Though it sounds like this is largely his excuse, as he seems to just state it as his opinion, while what we do know is they went to college and an arrogant, shallow bastard started hitting on her, and she almost immediately fell for him.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with someone wanting to wait until after marriage to have sex, but there's also nothing wrong with someone deciding even perhaps later down the road, that no, they really can't or don't want to wait. Neither person should try to force or guilt trip the other. Saying, "If you really loved me you'll wait", or saying "If you really loved me you'll just have sex", is equally wrong if you ask me. While you can be intimate without sex, plenty of people, at least many of whom I've talked to or have heard speak on the subject consider sexual compatibility important for a good relationship. Not the most important thing, but important. Once you get married it's a little to late to learn one partner only wants to do it missionary while the other wants to try doggy style.

You can easily find people on either side of the matter. Very many of the happiest marriages I've seen were between people who remained chaste until marriage. They both learn together and are concerned about the other's feelings and pleasing the other, and they thus learn to make things work. Perhaps they just got lucky, but as I said it's easy to find arguments on either side. Only person I ever knew who had a problem on account of not having tested first discovered a medical condition that made it unbearably painful under any circumstances. But anyway, I think I'll leave it here. If we start trying to define the positives and negatives of sexuality at different stages of relationships it'll easily go crazy, with either walls of text (my forte, by stubbornness and verbosity rather than anything positive) or flames. This is hardly the place for such things.

Anyway mild jokes aside, what she wanted could have been more benign then sex. I just used sex because of the word choices (chaste and pure) for the translation.

Hard to say. It certainly seemed to imply sexual intimacy. Could have been that he meant reducing it to conversations and tea, without even kissing and hand-holding, but I suspect that he was talking about the most obvious definition.