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Old 2020-09-23, 18:36   Link #321
Frontier
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tokkan View Post
Spoiler for The other 2 witches:
I honestly thought for sure Carmilla was Ai Kayano using her cutesy little girl voice, even though I've been hearing Manaka Iwami every Monday as Tohru Honda
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Originally Posted by Kakurin View Post
Two minor points I found to be interesting:

1) The scene showing the continuation of the scenario where Subaru got killed by Rem in the mansion was actually Rem ending Subaru's suffering after he got poisoned.
Yeah, I think that was his second death in that arc? Where he stumbles out of bed from the poison and I think we see a glimpse of Rem's mace through his blurred vision.

I don't think we saw the one where Rem tortures him and Ram puts him out of his misery, unless I missed it.
Quote:
2) Subaru seeing Carmilla as Rem because deep down he wanted so.
Probably a lot of ways to look at it, like deep down Subaru looks to Rem for comfort and support more than he does Emilia because she helped rebuild him from back up from zero or just seeing Rem again in the visions kept her on his mind.
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Old 2020-09-23, 18:55   Link #322
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"You're a witch!"

Hmm, maybe work on your insults a little, Subaru?

Seeing what possibly happened in the worlds Subaru left behind was interesting, too bad we'll probably never find out whether they really exist or not. If Subaru were to find out that they kept existing, he'd probably be unable to move forward, as he'd be reluctant to experiment.

I'm not sure why the other witches didn't crash the tea party until now. Were they just not interested enough? Anyway, witch of wrath is becoming a favorite of mine. Really saved Subaru's butt here. I can't believe he was actually going to go through with the contract without asking about the cons.

Loved Echidna's face when Satella showed up. I hope she'll be able to hold a conversation this time. Next episode could be quite the milestone if so.
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Old 2020-09-23, 19:10   Link #323
Frontier
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanon View Post
"You're a witch!"

Hmm, maybe work on your insults a little, Subaru?
This time he means it .
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Seeing what possibly happened in the worlds Subaru left behind was interesting, too bad we'll probably never find out whether they really exist or not. If Subaru were to find out that they kept existing, he'd probably be unable to move forward, as he'd be reluctant to experiment.
Well, Echidna said the only one who could answer for sure is Satella herself, and she's right there .

But I'm more willing to believe it's not true because the Trial is ultimately just a farbrication from his memories made to make him feel guilty rather than be factual. Which does make me wonder how he passes the second trial. Does he just bear it until it's done showing him the slideshow of his deaths .
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I'm not sure why the other witches didn't crash the tea party until now. Were they just not interested enough? Anyway, witch of wrath is becoming a favorite of mine. Really saved Subaru's butt here. I can't believe he was actually going to go through with the contract without asking about the cons.
I think there's definitely something about the dynamic with the witch's that we don't know about, especially since they apparently never needed to just possess Echidna to appear before Subaru .
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Old 2020-09-23, 20:24   Link #324
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kakurin View Post
2) Subaru seeing Carmilla as Rem because deep down he wanted so.
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Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
Probably a lot of ways to look at it, like deep down Subaru looks to Rem for comfort and support more than he does Emilia because she helped rebuild him from back up from zero or just seeing Rem again in the visions kept her on his mind.
Remember that Subaru said he has a number one and number two in his heart and earlier this season he said that Rem was just as important to him as Emilia.
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Old 2020-09-23, 21:11   Link #325
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Well if Umineko is anything to go by, when all the witches have a tea party, it means things are gonna get really bloody here.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
I honestly thought for sure Carmilla was Ai Kayano using her cutesy little girl voice, even though I've been hearing Manaka Iwami every Monday as Tohru Honda
And here I was thinking it was Kana Hanazawa.
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Old 2020-09-23, 21:38   Link #326
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Wow, this episode was great treat. I was always curious about the reactions of the worlds Subaru left behind after each death, just being able to see seconds or minutes of what they showed us was delicious. Wish there was just one volume of aftermath after each death to just show what him dying at that time affects.
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Old 2020-09-24, 04:14   Link #327
moridin84
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Uwah. First thing he does is check that his eye is okay.

Woah, all progress is entirely reset.

Ah, so trials are a past, present and future thing.

Echinda not having anyone in mind at all in regards to Beatrice's "that person" is just lulz.

It's strange that Subaru tells Echidna that she is "incapable of understanding how anyone feels" when she has been sympathizing with him for this entire time. Plus, She seems to have manipulated him really well to get him to this point, where he would accept her contract without thinking about it.

I think the deal itself is a lot better than I thought it would be. There isn't really a "trap" there. Well, the real trap is that with Echinda's personality, Subaru would end up dying thousands of times. So it's quite clever. The issue is the difference between the perspectives of Subaru and Echinda.

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Originally Posted by FlameSparkZ View Post
That contract sounded way too convenient. Borrow Echidna's knowledge to solve whatever obstacles that stand in the way...at the price of sharing with her what Subaru experiences in each attempt to solve a loop.
Sure, it sounds good and all, but that basically means no privacy for Subaru as he'd always have Echidna giving her opinion on the matter and suggesting way to tackle an issue...he'd literally have no peace of mind.
You know, I'm pretty sure there is a bunch of isekai where the MC starts with someone like that. I don't think it's that big a deal.

Honestly, I think he would be pretty happy with that. If you ignore the 10,000 deaths thing.
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Old 2020-09-24, 04:32   Link #328
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kakurin View Post
1) The scene showing the continuation of the scenario where Subaru got killed by Rem in the mansion was actually Rem ending Subaru's suffering after he got poisoned.
It is worth noting that it is the same type of loop where Rem is suspecting Subaru to be part of the witch cult, while Subaru is indulging himself in the mansion by doing things he wasn't supposed to know. Furthermore, the way how Rem explained herself didn't really ring true even if you consider Rem prior going full dere mode for him.
As far as it goes, Rem used Subaru's curse as the perfect chance to kill him. The fact she used her spiked ball and killed him that way hardly count as a mercy kill, moreso it wasn't a clean and painless attempt, even though Subaru was barely moving and not even aware of her presence.
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Originally Posted by moridin84 View Post
It's strange that Subaru tells Echidna that she is "incapable of understanding how anyone feels" when she has been sympathizing with him for this entire time. Plus, She seems to have manipulated him really well to get him to this point, where he would accept her contract without thinking about it.
This is because Subaru realized that every single emotion Echidna expressed towards him was fake. Simply put, Subaru figured out Echidna cannot compute people's suffering considering how she is so hellbend about RbD and how she left Beatrice to rot in the library for centuries without any hint of sympathy, pity or regret, which is why Subaru stated her answer to that question would make him up his mind.
This also means Echidna is merely acting based on "what people are supposed to do" thanks to her knowledge, but that doesn't mean she genuinely feel that way. That's the very reason why Subaru called her a witch: not based on her status or abilities, but her own existence. A monster that isn't anything close to humane.

EDIT: I've checked Tappei's twitter and he actually confirmed my thoughts about that:
Quote:
『強欲の魔女』エキドナは、感情の理解できない魔女です。これまでの態度の数々は、「そういうもの」「お約 束」といったものをなぞったテンプレートです。 それがスバルにどういう印象を与えるか、を深くまでは考えていない。ので、ああいう態度になってしまいます 。
"The Witch of Greed, Echidna, is a witch who is unable to understand emotions. Her attitude thus far was merely a template traced according to how things are supposed to be or are destined to be. She didn't give any deep thought about the impressions she gave to Subaru up to now. That's why she is acting that way now."
Quote:
I think the deal itself is a lot better than I thought it would be. There isn't really a "trap" there. Well, the real trap is that with Echinda's personality, Subaru would end up dying thousands of times. So it's quite clever. The issue is the difference between the perspectives of Subaru and Echinda.
It is actually an awful deal because Subaru would have to go through RbD indefinitely until Echidna's curiosity for possible outcome is sated so she would look forward to the true end. Considering the butterfly effect + all the possible choices to be made, it would literally take millions of death for him to actually reach his goal AND knowing sacrifices could have to be done if Echidna dictate it is necessary, similarly how RbD doesn't care about sacrifices to be made so Subaru could escape a dead end.
So instead of trying to clear a game blind, it is like he has to charter every single bad end of a sandbox game with limitless way to die thanks to the fantasy setting. And unlike the blind option, fate (as in Echidna) would direct him to all of the bad ends first. If anything, one could argue that Subaru has higher chance to overcome his ordeal without her since he wouldn't be fed false information that would lead to undesired outcome.

And to make things worse, he knows full well Echidna doesn't care about him or the people he loves and wants to help. Knowing that, his only solace about RbD, as in having a kindred spirit, literally vanished. That's basically knowing your own executioner throwing you to the slaughter over and over just for their amusement and curiosity.
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Old 2020-09-24, 05:02   Link #329
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It is actually an awful deal because Subaru would have to go through RbD indefinitely until Echidna's curiosity for possible outcome is sated so she would look forward to the true end. Considering the butterfly effect + all the possible choices to be made, it would literally take millions of death for him to actually reach his goal AND knowing sacrifices could have to be done if Echidna dictate it is necessary, similarly how RbD doesn't care about sacrifices to be made so Subaru could escape a dead end.
Normally with these kinds of deals, the person never gets what they really want. Either get nothing due to a trick in the contract, or they only get "the letter" of what they want, or perhaps there are too many sacrifices.

Here Subaru will get a ideal result he wants the problem is the "process". He'll have to die thousands of times and not because it is nesscary but purely to satisfy her "greed".
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Old 2020-09-24, 05:15   Link #330
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The process itself is enough to break someone's soul with "merely" few attempts. Even if you are promised what you want, being forced to repeat failures over and over without any rhyme or reason will obviously take its toll sooner or later.
Let's imagine Dark Souls where the game force you to go through the start to the last dungeon while dying to every single enemy and boss encounter multiple times and differently to "experiment" all the pattern and death possibilities, and also try every single death by environement hazard in every possible location at different time of your progress. Then repeat that process for every single story choices, attributes choices and gear choices, while being denied any shortcut or save point (unless forced by RbD), meaning you have to do the exact same things knowing full well they will lead to your demise.
That kind of process is not only longwinded but strictly pointless by its nature.

Subaru's case is much more insidious because he still feels pain every time he dies and he vividly remembers every death after each loop. He is not allowed to share his suffering either, except for Echidna (and probably the other witches) who are bunch of nutjobs. And finally, he is not promised that Echidna will be satisfied in a "timely manner". This also means she could effectively not fulfill the end of the bargain if Subaru's spirit breaks before she finally is satisfied by his ordeal.

A contract is all about semantics. It is quite obvious when you see how Beatrice's contract was done: she has to wait for someone, yet Echidna doesn't even know if that person exist or will ever exist and never told Beatrice that she will have to make that choice.
This effectively means that Beatrice's contract could have been prolonged forever. Likewise, if we stretch Subaru's contract semantics, this means that his contract could be prolonged the very moment Echidna observes a new possibility in his path and wants to try that (which also include every single alternative path/actions/result to that). It is simply boundless and could force Subaru to do heinous act just for sake of experimentation. And should Subaru refuse to do them, then it would definitely not satisfy Echidna, thus leading them to a stalemate. Also, as pointed out by Subaru and Echidna, the contract doesn't even consider the "best path" to reach that end, so this also means there is absolutely no guarantee anyone will be spared by a certain degree of atrocity, not even Emilia "as long the end matches what Subaru desires, everything else is irrelevant".

In other words, the promise of a good end (not even perfect end) is only confirmed on paper but is hardly possible in reality since it isn't even guaranteed by the contract.
It is basically abusing of his unique advantage and turns it into a cesspool of suffering porn "just because". There is no way anyone would be sane enough to accept that knowing there is potentially no end in sight while they almost gave up halfway even though it didn't even amount more than 10-20 deaths. That's basically saying "you can have what you want, but you gotta wait for the end of the time, which is infinity -1 and I can't guarantee you won't give up halfway nor you won't be spared seeing people you love suffer as much or worse than you do. Oh and you might lose some people along the way, but as long Emilia and some of your friends are alive (not necessarily fine and well, mind you!), that's fine right?".
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Old 2020-09-24, 05:47   Link #331
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I've always found it odd why Puck wants to destroy the world after Emilia dies, but now I think I've had the answer.
He is basically committing suicide by forcing Reinhart to kill him.
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Old 2020-09-24, 06:34   Link #332
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Apparently, Tappei wrote IF stories for several branching points in Subaru's journey, each labelled under a deadly sin. They're not exactly canon, but contain spoilers for future arcs, so I haven't read them aside from a rough summary of what happens in those alternate routes.

The situation we witnessed in this episode is also one of those branching points, where Subaru chooses to from a contract with Echidna.
It's called Greed IF: Kasaneru (meaning "overlap/pile up/add up/repeat") and let's just say that......it's not pretty.

Other branching points that have passed are:
Spoiler for Other IFs:


Like I said, most of these contain spoilers, so I've only read a basic summary of them...but still interesting to see what could've happened had Subaru chosen differently.
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Old 2020-09-24, 09:11   Link #333
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I don't think Echidna lied when she said Subaru would get the best possible result, otherwise she would have also lied when Subaru asked if she would do so by taking the best possible path.

The way I interpret this is that if Subaru accepts the contract he would indeed end up with the best possible scenario for everyone, in other words everyone is alive and happy (as long as the probability isn't zero), well, everyone except possibly himself.

Echidna would however want to explore every single "what if" scenario, which would require Subaru to die multiple times, a lot more than it would be needed for him to just solve the problems by himself. There is some logic in that. How exactly can you be sure which is the best possible resolution if you don't try them all before? Subaru might get a positive resolution by himself, but that doesn't mean it will be the best. In fact last time he failed to keep Rem completely safe.

It would take a lot of time before every possible path is explored, but there has to be an end, otherwise Echidna would have lied. The problem is if Subaru can endure that and to that Echidna reminded him that he swore to be ready to make any sacrifice to achieve his goal.

But that being said, I'm not convinced that the contract would create some form of compulsion on Subaru. Wouldn't he still be free to ignore Echidna's directions when they blatantly don't lead to a positive result? In the end there was no compulsion on Beatrice's either, just a deceit. Beatrice could have resolved her contract at any time, she just needed to choose someone as "that person".

Still I suppose that if Subaru refuses to listen to Echidna it would be meaningless anyway. So, yeah, he really needs to be absolutely desperate, he must end believing he can't possibly solve a certain situation alone before accepting the deal.
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Old 2020-09-24, 09:36   Link #334
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But now that Satella appeared, there's no way she'll let Subaru form a contract with Echidna. Not to mention he already decided he'll save Beatrice.

And regarding Satella's appearance at the tea party, the other witches weren't that worried about her...except Echidna, she was clearly angry. Can't blame her though, she was killed while in the middle of an experiment to gain immortality, anyone in that situation would hold a grudge
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Old 2020-09-24, 09:49   Link #335
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Ah, so trials are a past, present and future thing.
This makes me wonder what the third trial is going to be like. Forcing Subaru to witness future's where he wasn't able to accomplish anything or save anyone? What the future could've been like if he'd made different choices ?
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And regarding Satella's appearance at the tea party, the other witches weren't that worried about her...except Echidna, she was clearly angry. Can't blame her though, she was killed while in the middle of an experiment to gain immortality, anyone in that situation would hold a grudge
It could be their personalities or it could be that they're not worried because they're already dead, so it's not like Satella can perma-kill them again (I assume).

Echidna went to the trouble of creating a realm where she assumed Satella couldn't break through and they were safe, and now she just comes strutting in like it was no big deal. I guess that's what you get when you try and take away Satella's man .
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Old 2020-09-24, 11:16   Link #336
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I don't think Echidna lied when she said Subaru would get the best possible result, otherwise she would have also lied when Subaru asked if she would do so by taking the best possible path.
Echidna definitely doesn't lie but offers half baked explanation leading to loopholes, which is why Sekhmet and Camilla called her out.
She doesn't understand people's emotions, which means that she will most likely see things in a very objective manner. This also means that the terms of the contract can be extremely detrimental to Subaru regardless of the number of attemps he would have to go through.

For instance, what is the definition of "happiness" Subaru will have to employ to make Echidna understand the happy ending he wishes for? Assuming Subaru doesn't give that definition, Echidna is free to conclude that "as long Emilia's camp members are alive and Emilia is crowned Queen of the kingdom, it Subaru's victory", which disregard everyone mental state, nor does it insure the situation is good enough.

Morale questions aside, Echidna's inability to understand people emotions would greatly pose problem to Subaru, which is very likely why she couldn't affirm it will be the "best path" for him. The fact Beatrice wanted to die because of her contract was a byproduct of the experiment and Echidna was pleased by that even if it wasn't what she expected at first, not understanding her plight. So in Subaru's case, you bet the best ending would take a while since she herself wouldn't even comprehend the definition of it.
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Old 2020-09-24, 11:47   Link #337
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Speaking of Echidna, Tappei Nagatsuki revealed on twitter that Maaya Sakamoto was able to do her big speech in this episode all in one take.

Sasuga Sakamoto-sama .
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Old 2020-09-24, 15:14   Link #338
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And regarding Satella's appearance at the tea party, the other witches weren't that worried about her...except Echidna, she was clearly angry. Can't blame her though, she was killed while in the middle of an experiment to gain immortality, anyone in that situation would hold a grudge
I get them not being too worried, since they're already dead and all. But the one... Pride I think it was. She actually called Satella by a nickname (Tella), despite being killed by her. Is she that daft or is this a hint that Satella has something deeper going on?
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Old 2020-09-24, 16:15   Link #339
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For instance, what is the definition of "happiness" Subaru will have to employ to make Echidna understand the happy ending he wishes for? Assuming Subaru doesn't give that definition, Echidna is free to conclude that "as long Emilia's camp members are alive and Emilia is crowned Queen of the kingdom, it Subaru's victory", which disregard everyone mental state, nor does it insure the situation is good enough.
The word in question is "saizen" (the very best).

The reason I don't believe there's any interpretation trickery and that by "very best" Echidna means the very best from Subaru's perspective and not hers is that if that was the case then she wouldn't have had any problem to claim that she would do so taking the very best path, because from her perspective exploring all possibilities is the very best path.

The fact that she couldn't answer "yes" to Subaru's second question, proves to me that Echidna fully understand that when Subaru says "very best" he means the "very best" from his perspective and so that must also apply to the "very best" possible future.

Besides what kind of reason would there even be for Echidna to not grant that? She only cares about knowing as much as she can, once she gains the knowledge of all possible resolutions she would get what she wanted and she could tell Subaru the one who is the best for him. She wouldn't really care.
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Old 2020-09-24, 16:16   Link #340
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I get them not being too worried, since they're already dead and all. But the one... Pride I think it was. She actually called Satella by a nickname (Tella), despite being killed by her. Is she that daft or is this a hint that Satella has something deeper going on?
Nah, Typhon is just cheerful, and she gives everyone nicknames. She has one for all the witches and Subaru.
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