AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Related Topics > General Anime

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2017-08-18, 05:41   Link #261
Tanuki.
Just another tanuki.
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Germany
Age: 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo View Post
It's naive to believe that a system where the majority are the workers aren't even employees (they're contractors) and live in poverty working 90-hour weeks can survive indefinitely. It can't. Even if you believe the industry could survive the creative strangulation the production committee system causes (which I don't - not long-term) it can't survive that kind of labor model forever.

The fact is, whatever you think of Netflix and Amazon and even Crunchyroll directly producing anime, they bring dramatically bigger budgets to their projects. You think the creative staffs don't like that - even if they have to compromise on creative and business matters at times? Do you think they'll leave that on the table to work under the old model, with its harried production schedules, zero work-life balance and endless budget-induced creative compromises? No way.

Some studios have seen this, and are trying to adapt - Bones has been doing so for years, and the likes of I.G., MAPPA and Trigger are following their lead. And you have others, like Sunrise and P.A. Works, trying to find a way to obsolete the contractor-animator model with training programs (which is really a baby step, but at least it's a step). Those who try and adapt might survive. Those who don't will perish, and I think relatively quickly.
The production committee system has survived for more than 20 years. And Amazon, Netflix and Crunchyroll won'tthrow millions at the industry in the long run if they can't get millions back in return. There needs to be a market for that. This might happen with some selected titles, but not with the majority of all anime produced.

Many of the American cartoons are animated in Korea where labor costs for animation are even cheaper than in Japan (and other Asian countries, especially China, will continue to do more outsourced work as well). And these projects have much, much bigger budgets than anime. I admit I haven't done any reseach on that, but I doubt the animators suddenly earn significantly more money when they animate The Legend of Korra or do in-between animaton on The Simpsons.

There are also more factors: People who work as animators do it because they want to. They could easily get other jobs that require no or low qualification and pay better (even part-time jobs pay better). They are, in early stages of their work life, also very replacable because in-between animation is a very mechanical process that doesn't require years of experience and is often outsourced anyway. (Though there has been a shortage of animators recently, but the explosive growth of the market is more to blame for that than the deterrent effect of the working conditions in the anime industry, I guess.)

There are many open questions in the room. First we need to know if animators actually *get* more money if they work on shows produced by Crunchyroll, Amazon or Netflix. Do we have any proof that the people in Korea (I think it's Korea) who animated Castlevania earned more money?

I'm not saying there aren't any improvements and every effort is commendable. It would be fantastic if every studio could become like Kyoto Animation (as in: employing their animators) or Polygon Pictures (normal working hours) at some point and animators and other stuff could live in financial safety and be in a position to support families. But I really don't see that happen anytime soon. And that's a real shame.
Tanuki. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2017-08-18, 10:15   Link #262
Guardian Enzo
Seishu's Ace
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Kobe, Japan
And I would argue that the current labor model only survived as long as it has (and it's gotten worse and worse over the past two decades) because there really wasn't any alternative. Now there is. That's going to make it harder and harder for those who are invested in what's basically a serfdom to perpetuate it.

The production committee system has existed in some form or another for two decades, but its nature and influence looked a lot different 20, 10 or even 5 years ago.
Guardian Enzo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2017-08-18, 11:04   Link #263
Fvlminatvs
Junior Member
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: New Jersey
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo View Post
The fact is, whatever you think of Netflix and Amazon and even Crunchyroll directly producing anime, they bring dramatically bigger budgets to their projects. You think the creative staffs don't like that - even if they have to compromise on creative and business matters at times? Do you think they'll leave that on the table to work under the old model, with its harried production schedules, zero work-life balance and endless budget-induced creative compromises? No way.

Some studios have seen this, and are trying to adapt - Bones has been doing so for years, and the likes of I.G., MAPPA and Trigger are following their lead. And you have others, like Sunrise and P.A. Works, trying to find a way to obsolete the contractor-animator model with training programs (which is really a baby step, but at least it's a step). Those who try and adapt might survive. Those who don't will perish, and I think relatively quickly.
The way I see it, Western investment will only impact the situation positively if the studios themselves pay their employees and contractors more instead of paying them the same. The reality is that there is a looming threat of an animator shortage within the next decade or so because nobody can afford to keep working in the current conditions, especially since this is Japan's THIRD Lost Decade in a row.

Much of this rests on the studios themselves. If they take the Western money and don't change their pay scales, nothing will be accomplished, long-term, and the animator shortage will mean that senior staff and production will remain Japanese but actual animation will be outsourced.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tanuki. View Post
The production committee system has survived for more than 20 years. And Amazon, Netflix and Crunchyroll won'tthrow millions at the industry in the long run if they can't get millions back in return. There needs to be a market for that. This might happen with some selected titles, but not with the majority of all anime produced.
I don't we have a solid understanding of what Netflix is doing. I don't think they are out to directly compete with Crunchyroll but to diversify their material to better satisfy their customer-base. If they calculate that perhaps 10% of their viewers watch anime, then those viewers will be pleased to see hyped shows like Little Witch Academia. It is a sort of indirect competition. Netflix offers smorgasbord of viewing options and they want to satisfy a large number of demographics. They aren't out to specialize in anime anymore than they are out to specialize in, say, Westerns or science-fiction television shows. They offer a little bit of everything so that, no matter what you are in the mood for, you can find something you like. If you watch a variety of things, from Criminal Minds to The Twilight Zone to Attack on Titan, you'll be satisfied.

In other words, people who watch anime and nothing else are not their target audience. People who like to watch "quality television programming," however, are.

Amazon used to be doing this as well. With the launch of Anime Strike, though, Amazon is deliberately trying to compete with Crunchyroll. Their business strategy looks like it has alienated the very demographic that they were courting, however.

Quote:
Many of the American cartoons are animated in Korea where labor costs for animation are even cheaper than in Japan (and other Asian countries, especially China, will continue to do more outsourced work as well). And these projects have much, much bigger budgets than anime. I admit I haven't done any reseach on that, but I doubt the animators suddenly earn significantly more money when they animate The Legend of Korra or do in-between animaton on The Simpsons.
Having lived in South Korea, I can attest to two things:

1) The costs of living (especially outside of Seoul) are by-and-large cheaper than urban Japan. Many studios, like Dr. Movie, are based in cities like Busan which aren't as expensive as Seoul so your won goes further.

2) The yen-to-won exchange rate really favors Japan. Whenever I had to exchange money going to visit Japan, I felt like I paupered myself--especially when I had to pay Japanese prices for things! Meanwhile, when I converted yen to won, my buying power was greater. The same goes for the dollar-to-won exchange rate.

Granted, though, that I haven't been over there in five years, though, so things could have changed.

Quote:
There are many open questions in the room. First we need to know if animators actually *get* more money if they work on shows produced by Crunchyroll, Amazon or Netflix. Do we have any proof that the people in Korea (I think it's Korea) who animated Castlevania earned more money?
Darn good question. If they were paid the same amount of money as Japanese animators (which I doubt they were), their purchasing power would be greater than in Japan with the same amount of pay.
__________________
--Qvidqvid Latine dictvm sit altvm videtvr.
Fvlminatvs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2017-08-18, 11:27   Link #264
SeijiSensei
AS Oji-kun
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Age: 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fvlminatvs View Post
Amazon used to be doing this as well. With the launch of Anime Strike, though, Amazon is deliberately trying to compete with Crunchyroll. Their business strategy looks like it has alienated the very demographic that they were courting, however.
I think Amazon's primary reason for establishing Strike was to collect another five bucks a month from families whose kids want to watch anime and to keep those families subscribed to Amazon Prime. Amazon probably wouldn't have paid much attention to Crunchyroll if not for ATT's decision to partner with CR's parent, Ellation.

On the other hand Ellation's announced target audience is young people who don't care much about mainstream movies and television programming, preferring things like "anime, video games, niche action sports and other fare off the beaten path." Amazon obviously courts a much, much wider audience.
SeijiSensei is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2017-08-18, 11:42   Link #265
Fvlminatvs
Junior Member
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: New Jersey
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeijiSensei View Post
I think Amazon's primary reason for establishing Strike was to collect another five bucks a month from families whose kids want to watch anime and to keep those families subscribed to Amazon Prime. Amazon probably wouldn't have paid much attention to Crunchyroll if not for ATT's decision to partner with CR's parent, Ellation.

On the other hand Ellation's announced target audience is young people who don't care much about mainstream movies and television programming, preferring things like "anime, video games, niche action sports and other fare off the beaten path." Amazon obviously courts a much, much wider audience.
So, in summation, you're saying that Amazon is still running on the strategy I believe Netflix is following--just trying to get a quick buck for what it sees as a far-niche product?

That makes sense.
__________________
--Qvidqvid Latine dictvm sit altvm videtvr.
Fvlminatvs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2017-08-24, 09:22   Link #266
SeijiSensei
AS Oji-kun
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Age: 74
The New York Times, of all places, recently published this quite positive story about Crunchyroll in the context of one of the channel's movie nights.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/17/m...streaming.html
SeijiSensei is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2017-11-04, 19:07   Link #267
Magin
#1 Akashiya Moka Fan
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Where magic is real
Age: 35
Send a message via AIM to Magin Send a message via MSN to Magin
Somewhat of a necro here, but since I think what I'm posting about fits within the topic, I can do it:

Between tons more streaming being available as well as the number of fansub groups slowly but surely fading away, my question/thought is this: is it truly better to be subscribed to a streaming service that seems to be absolute crap when the unofficial/"illegal" releases were so much higher in quality? To me, this has never made sense. Although I'm subscribed to CR (technically through a VRV combo), the reason I made this choice was because of what else I got in the package. Yet, every time I go to watch a video, I cringe a little inside, because the CR subs, as well as so many other legal subs... are just crappy machine-translated subs, or at least they feel basically like they were just translated and slapped on, with no personality. In fact, a thread I saw over in reddit the other day came up with this: the illegal fansubs put stylized texts for different characters, and my personal favorite, always subbed the karaoke (which legal subs cannot do because of legalities with performing artists). Yet they were still always free. The stuff you pay for... is just to lackluster in comparison.

Now, I understand that it seems to show there's at least two sides of the fandom. You have those who just want to know what they're saying and want it ASAP, and don't give a damn about the other qualities. Then you have the ones who actually cared, and the only way to get that without paying for it is to hope a decent fansub group will do the blu-rays. In fact, i almost feel like this is promoting Capitalism even more: we'll give you crappy rush job in order to promote the fact that you should buy blu-rays which have all the bells and whistles (which, for the record, I personally do not have the funds to buy everything that I like, especially not on pricey blu-ray. Also, there's the issue of space in my home...).

Which makes me feel like I've fallen into a lost group: the ones who are willing to wait a few days for a good fansub of the current season. But with the apparent mindset of "no, we must have the current season's anime the day it comes out!" being the majority now... well, it just feels like subtitles have lost their artistic soul, especially all the legal subs.

- I should probably note that I also usually prefer subbed over dubbed
__________________
Gifted...or Cursed?

R+V fanfic- Chapter 4 of A Water Bride and a Vampire is now up at FF.net!

All fans of Inner or Outer Moka, come join her fanclub!
Magin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2017-11-05, 05:42   Link #268
0cean
Transfer Adventurer
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Yeah, I get what you're saying. I usually wait for the BDs to come out, because I don't have the time to watch everything I like twice, so I want the best quality the first time around. Now the BDs usually show up about 12 to 18 months later and by that time, nowadays, there's still no decent fansub for most of the stuff. I haven't even found a dedicated fansub database, with all the subs (and no crappy picture subs like VOB/PGS) for every show (timed for the BDs), where you then download only the subs and provide the BD yourself. There's kitsunekko, but that's not a real database.

Sadly, most fans just don't care for quality.
__________________
0cean is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2021-03-29, 17:44   Link #269
AnimeFan188
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Netflix is launching 40 anime movies and shows in 2021:

"Netflix will have a much larger anime collection to choose from by the end of this year.
The streaming giant has announced at Tokyo's AnimeJapan 2021 Expo that it's launching
around 40 anime shows and movies within the year, which is double the number of titles it
released in 2020. As Bloomberg notes, it's likely part of the company's efforts to appeal
to audiences in Asia and in international markets as a whole now that most North
American viewers already have subscriptions."

See:

https://www.engadget.com/netflix-40-...074304890.html
AnimeFan188 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:04.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
We use Silk.