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View Poll Results: Kyoukai Senjou no Horizon - Episode 8 Rating
Perfect 10 18 36.73%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 12 24.49%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 9 18.37%
7 out of 10 : Good 5 10.20%
6 out of 10 : Average 2 4.08%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 2 4.08%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 1 2.04%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 49. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2011-11-21, 18:17   Link #41
Suiri Megami Alice
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lightsenshi View Post
In regards to the first the miser in question responds to be being pushed forward: "Oh, so you'll admit that all those times I picked on you that I was right." (or something like that).
The point here is, he made the right call by sending Shirojiro against Naomasa, as he is the only one in Toori's party that can have a chance against her mecha.

Quote:
In regards to the second, she wasn't picked but rather she volunteered.
Toori realized what Nate's gonna do (surrender) and prevented that by ordering Suzu to grab Nate's breast. What he's saying here is, he's actually ordering Suzu to attack Nate, so Nate will have no choice but to defend herself.
http://forums.animesuki.com/showthre...25#post3859025
^ Quoting stuopidget's post there since I am too lazy to post the screnshot and the explanation.

Quote:
In regards to the third, if it was genius then why does he sound like a complete moron who doesn't have a clue?
What does appearing like a moron have anything do with his taken action? You don't even know what he was really thinking. He can be obfuscating stupidity. And he doesn't need to have a clue of what to do (he asks help from the politician, seeing as how he reads the argument from paper.) as long as he reverses the side of the argument.

Quote:
(Feel free to call it genius, rather it comes across to me as the exact opposite.)
Toori doing all the right call in the right moment is just too much to sum up as a coincidence. In the 9-ball analogy, what was the probability of an amateur pocketing all the balls without missing? It's not even possible unless you really got the skill. One is a fluke, two is a coincidence, and three is a skill.
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Old 2011-11-21, 19:05   Link #42
lightsenshi
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Again, I don't see it as genius. I see it as him playing the "I'm a main character and can do anything I like" card. I'm not going to try and convince anyone but please don't preach to me about how much of a 'genius' he is when it seems exactly the opposite to me.
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Old 2011-11-21, 19:28   Link #43
Suiri Megami Alice
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lightsenshi View Post
Again, I don't see it as genius. I see it as him playing the "I'm a main character and can do anything I like" card. I'm not going to try and convince anyone but please don't preach to me about how much of a 'genius' he is when it seems exactly the opposite to me.
I'm not preaching, but making points as how I don't see that way. I have a right to disagree right? And people don't disagree by just saying "I disagree".

It's cool if you think Toori is like that though, it's your personal view. Just letting you know that I don't see what you're seeing.
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Old 2011-11-21, 19:28   Link #44
Kunagisa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zero7090 View Post
lol @ the pope have to use personal reason to argue
I think his arguments are pretty valid and sly. The part at the end is slightly different from the novel. I haven't had a chance to watch the sub yet. Will comment on this later.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lightsenshi View Post
Again, I don't see it as genius. I see it as him playing the "I'm a main character and can do anything I like" card. I'm not going to try and convince anyone but please don't preach to me about how much of a 'genius' he is when it seems exactly the opposite to me.
I don't think it's anyone's intention "preach" you. You asked a question (which wasn't clear if it was rhetorical in nature), and people responded by merely having a discussion on the points that they don't agree with.

If you don't intend to convince anyone then you can just ignore s/he since you've said your point, and I'm fairly certain that are quite a few that agree with you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MorningGlory View Post
So....Horizon is a force suicide, with a helping hand from KPA italia .I don't think its a suicide unless Horizon wish for her own death. hmmm...does automaton even have its own will 0.0"
Definitely. Though they're just extremely logical.

Horizon is an avid reader, which may or may not seem obvious from the anime. I think it's worth mentioning that the book she gave back to Masazumi in episode 5 basically says killing yourself is the way to go for people in her position, which is why she thinks Toori's action is meaningless.



If people are interested, go read episode 5's Q and A on the infodump page. CTRL + F harakiri for search.
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Old 2011-11-21, 20:29   Link #45
Chaos2Frozen
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@lightsenshi

Long story short, if you've convinced he's an idiot from his appearance and manner then you've just proven that it's not unreasonable for other characters in the story to underestimate him and get careless just as Masazumi had.
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Old 2011-11-21, 21:07   Link #46
DXMichael
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My brain hurts...

I got the gist of what was going and that the pope was trying to trap the girl into saying the wrong things that would support what he wants etc.

Thank God Tooru brought some humor into it near the end, the episode was interesting, but not as good as the others when you don't know what's happening half the time XD

I'm hoping the next episode involves some action and shows off what the students can do.
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Old 2011-11-21, 21:58   Link #47
cyberdemon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lightsenshi View Post
In regards to the second, she wasn't picked but rather she volunteered.
check episode 7 around 16 minutes. That made it clear they intended to have her go. She merely agreed to go because she too really wanted to save Horizon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lightsenshi View Post
In regards to the third, if it was genius then why does he sound like a complete moron who doesn't have a clue?
read and enjoy:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...atingStupidity

ps. i hold no liability if you can't get away from the website. lol
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Old 2011-11-21, 23:22   Link #48
lightsenshi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberdemon View Post
read and enjoy:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...atingStupidity

ps. i hold no liability if you can't get away from the website. lol
Oi! Yes, I had considered that but it doesn't feel right. But then again, he's a main character; he could do pretty much anything and it'd come out 'right'.
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Last edited by lightsenshi; 2011-11-21 at 23:36.
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Old 2011-11-22, 00:35   Link #49
Duo Maxwell
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lightsenshi View Post
Oi! Yes, I had considered that but it doesn't feel right. But then again, he's a main character; he could do pretty much anything and it'd come out 'right'.
You know what, heroes are just stupid people who happened to be lucky that their stupid acts "succeeded", if you look at it that way. All those famous strategists are also got lucky that things were going their ways with all of their specifics strategy that wouldn't work outside of those specific situation.
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Old 2011-11-22, 00:51   Link #50
articuzwolf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duo Maxwell View Post
You know what, heroes are just stupid people who happened to be lucky that their stupid acts "succeeded", if you look at it that way. All those famous strategists are also got lucky that things were going their ways with all of their specifics strategy that wouldn't work outside of those specific situation.
eg: battle of chibi
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Old 2011-11-22, 04:39   Link #51
jeroz
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I just realised, the sin weapon they face at the end of this episode is Lust right?

so what if they got Horizon back and get this weapon as well.......



.....will Horizon get all slutty and such?

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Old 2011-11-22, 05:22   Link #52
mechalord
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This is one of the few shows out there that could have really used a narrator throughout the series to explain thing about the Universe the story is set in. The episodes are short, the cast is large, and the state of their world is extremely convoluted.

The first episode should have started with a lengthy description of the setting and some backstory information for some of these character.

Anyhow, Tori didn't get a lot of screen time in the first 6 or so episodes of this series. Tori hasn't some relevant and important lines or moments until now. Very weakly developed main character up until now.

Of course, he's not as dumb as he looks but he doesn't seem to be as smart as the writers may try to imply later on. He's really doesn't have a witty way about him. He's more of a loose cannon, a troll. His character seems to be inspired by comedy acts like Borat.

His character tries to incite intense emotional responses from people. He seems to embellish and magnify his "negative" traits on purpose in order to mask his true intentions. We sort of know he harbors revolutionary ideas and is supposed to be a leader in the upcoming revolution/civil war. As the president of the country he has to show weakness to keep the eyes of the Testament Union off of him. The "magazines" he reads could be laden with "encrypted" communiques with people who agree with him.

The whole story is about some students acting upon long time national resentment 'caused by decades of oppression by the Testament Union. The government composed of young adults is pushed into a rebellion by the actions of their seniors.
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Old 2011-11-22, 06:58   Link #53
Cosmic Eagle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lightsenshi View Post
Again, I don't see it as genius. I see it as him playing the "I'm a main character and can do anything I like" card. I'm not going to try and convince anyone but please don't preach to me about how much of a 'genius' he is when it seems exactly the opposite to me.
But either way, he still get's people to follow him....call it whatever you like, his results can't be denied. Luck, charisma, brains...whatever...at the end of the day they become irrelevent in the face of outcome

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
But that's for people who wants to retain some honor in death- Hmmm, I see where you're going, in other words you have to convince them to kill themselves by offering something that would come from their death.
Modern version.....Rommel's execution.

And it should also be noted that in the case of forced seppuku, the decapitator will just go ahead and slice off the target's head if he refuses, then say it's suicide later....
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Old 2011-11-22, 23:49   Link #54
Sol Falling
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Good ep. I like Futayo, and feel bad about Masazumi's breasts.
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Old 2011-11-22, 23:58   Link #55
Chaos2Frozen
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Political debates are more enjoyable when you understand what's going on in English

So what exactly does Galileo's Deadly Sin Armament do? Lol at the [Ptolemaic Theory]

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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Good ep. I like Futayo, and feel bad about Masazumi's breasts.
Don't feel bad, there are still people who likes flatchest.
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Old 2011-11-23, 00:30   Link #56
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I always find it interesting in the after effect of women dressing up as men or being tom boys. You always see them in un-feminine clothes and demeanor, but once after a ward robe change and a touch of makeup they look damn pretty. In Masazumi's case, having her pants pulled down and screaming like a little girl worked also.
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Old 2011-11-23, 03:55   Link #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
Political debates are more enjoyable when you understand what's going on in English

So what exactly does Galileo's Deadly Sin Armament do? Lol at the [Ptolemaic Theory]



Don't feel bad, there are still people who likes flatchest.
There are still people who likes flatchest, but Masazumi is not actually "flat" but "manly chest" .
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Old 2011-11-23, 04:06   Link #58
Morisato
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Why doesn't she just get surgery done again and get some fake breasts? Or magic. I'm sure with their super enhanced technology/magic, realistic breasts (that aren't silicone) aren't impossible.

Why does Asama's shrine have authority in picking sovereigns?
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Old 2011-11-23, 04:24   Link #59
Chaos2Frozen
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Originally Posted by Morisato View Post
Why doesn't she just get surgery done again and get some fake breasts? Or magic. I'm sure with their super enhanced technology/magic, realistic breasts (that aren't silicone) aren't impossible.
They already said she had complications during surgery.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morisato View Post
Why does Asama's shrine have authority in picking sovereigns?
They don't pick them, but they must be recognized by the shrine, probably because of their political position and their connections with the Shinto Gods.
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Old 2011-11-23, 06:49   Link #60
Kunagisa
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HUGE WALL OF TEXT (to match the episode @__@; there is tl;dr at the end)

This episode answered the question of why Masazumi is needed if they want to get supplies. The broadcast is actually to the entire "world". They need to legitimatize their cause if they want help; whether the other factions are sympathetic to their cause is another story. Not everyone has the omnipotent perspective of the viewers. This debate is basically explaining to the whole world what had happened yesterday. I hope from the responses of the citizens, you guys should realize most people are left in the dark. You can't utilize the entire city to go to war without explanation to the citizens.

When Gin said that Masazumi is looking straight at their direction, she is implying that Masazumi is trying to bait Innocentius into the discussion. Beating Toori is meaningless, but winning a debate against Innocentius is key. This is a horrible example but if a Communist government makes a political decision, Democratic governments are not likely to agree; yet, if the two entered a debate and Communist's debater won, then the general mass is likely to accept the Communist stance more (hope this makes sense). Meanwhile, Toori never wanted to win, but he DOES NEED Masazumi on his side because Masazumi is the only one left with political power (this is from previous episode).

The entire debate is very straightforward. To summarize the initial 3 points, you basically need land, people, and independence.
  • MU: Need our ruler back, can't defreeze accounts without a ruler.
Implication here is they will take over the entire Far East including all its colonies and officially declare independence from provisional rule.

This is a extremely good reason to go to war because they would get actual independence as you recall previously Far East is basically all sub-class people.
Funny thing here: the entire provisional council is helping out TOori here with the cheat sheets (basically the dad sold out his daughter and Masazumi just realized that). The question from her dad is basically what rights do you have to say we are justice and that TU is evil.

In the novel, Masazumi is actually facing a lot of pressure here. Father keeps saying she's immature, the failure of her operation etc., death of her mom, and her family basically falling into poverty.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morisato View Post
Why doesn't she just get surgery done again and get some fake breasts? Or magic. I'm sure with their super enhanced technology/magic, realistic breasts (that aren't silicone) aren't impossible.
Refer back to Episode 2, Masazumi is very, very poor. Even if operation is available, she probably can't afford it (if you absolutely need a reason to justify this); she could in the first place because that was before Motonobu decided to kick everyone out.

Those black algae eat trash in the city (they kinda hinted this with Masazumi giving them the paper). They're like the all purpose recycler in the far future, but they also stink like crazy and don't show their faces except to Horizon and Masazumi. The scene here is kinda touching, but due to pacing issue it got condensed. This is one of those scenes I suggest reading when the BT translations get here.

It's worth noting that Toori is the one who deliberately told Adele to bring them here.
  • TU's stance = If you let her die, we'll defreeze you accounts anyway, and Mikawa's ruler =/= your ruler.
  • Masazumi: We are merging with Mikawa then.
Remember you need people, land, and independence? Merging solves the first two and so Mikawa never disappeared as a result, there's no need to even take responsibility in the first place. All these guys care about is historical reenactment, so if the place exists then it's fine; the cost in losing land and resources are none factor for the sake of this particular debate.

Furthermore, Horizon = not responsible because not official ruler at the time of destruction. Like back in the Sengoku Era, inheritance has to be officialized through Shrines, and what Asama is saying is that KPA Italia hurried another Shrine to finish the process in the morning, but the explosion was last night.

Innocentius's main stance is the interpretation of the "Bible". Just like priests' interpretation of the bible are held as "fact", Innocentius' interpretation is not murder, but is martyrdom (like someone else already mentioned in this thread). The "interpretation" power is what allows him to make all his calls, while this seems highly unfair and bullshit, he is in the right here. He studied the history far more than anyone else, and he truly believes this is the correct method. While you label this faction the bad guys, at least here he is irrefutable.

This also had the added benefit of temporarily diverting from the inheritance argument, which is what Muneshige's saying about and exactly what Masazumi did; she totally ignored the previous stance that Horizon is completely innocent to begin with, so +1 Innocentius here; she only realized this when she mentioned the scorch Earth thing. Furthermore, when Masazumi use the parallel line discussion, to which Innocentius maintained that TU doesn't want war, Masazumi to match him has to say let's just go to war then; this is not Innocentius trying to force Masazumi to declare war and look bad as the instigator, this is just literally him going "Do you actually dare to declare war?" Masazumi can't say yes, and it's until Toori's stupid interjection that helps her make up her mind.

In the novel,
Spoiler for novel:

TL;DR: The translation is stellar as usual, rest of it I think you guys get and there isn't really anything else that I think needs clarification. Though keep in mind of the concept of parallel lines discussion, that becomes very important later on.

Last edited by Kunagisa; 2011-11-23 at 12:50.
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