2012-03-10, 23:11 | Link #1 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: قلوب المؤمنين
|
History and Counterfactual speculations discussions
This thread is dedicated for those who like discussing about history and wondering about "what if" alternate historical scenarios departing from certain consequential points within history had it been bended to the course differing from where it went to in our RL history. Like, what if Napoleon Bonaparte had won the Battle of Waterloo, what if Central Powers had won WW1, that kind of thing...
Alternate history is a "game" that can serve a number of purposes. It can be to speculate what would have been simply to satisfy curiosity, or to visualize the world you would like to be in more comprehensively, or even to create a new perspective or "feel" one would not normally find in the real world, in observing history. It can also be utilized to create a setting for a story, and a number of series and novels have done this. The most prominent example from anime realm being "Code Geass". Needless to say, it is pretty much a portal that leads to the discussions about history itself, and that's why I lump both topics together in a single thread. That's all for the dry, boring introductory opening Before we start however, there will be some rules that we need to abide to in order to keep this thread orderly and sense-friendly as possible, that are : Quote:
Spoiler for Tentative name : The Dragon, The Star, and The Shadow of God:
That's all for now. This alternate universe is still in the developing phase, so I'm not married to most of the features mentioned above. Comments, questions, and criticisms will be much appreciated And of course, for everyone who's currently also engaging in building an alternate history universe like I do, I insist you guys to discuss your projects in this thread
__________________
Last edited by Ridwan; 2012-03-10 at 23:31. |
|
2012-03-10, 23:24 | Link #4 |
Megane girl fan
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Diagonally parked in a parallel universe.
Age: 56
|
Sounds interesting. However may I suggest you put the map picture in it's own spoiler tag? With the text and the map in the same tag, there's an awful lot of side scrolling just to read everything.
__________________
|
2012-03-10, 23:31 | Link #5 |
=^^=
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: 42° 10' N (Latitude) 87° 33' W (Longitude)
Age: 45
|
In b4 9/11 Conspiracies. And I'm not willing to go in that direction, despite mentioning it.
=== But, a "what if" thread, huh? So, the kind of analysis you're looking for can have a similar depth as this: http://www.nfl.com/videos/new-englan...s-helmet-catch Except applied to actual history. Well, lemme think about some Bizzaro Worlds.
__________________
|
2012-03-10, 23:33 | Link #6 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: قلوب المؤمنين
|
Quote:
@Kyuu : Let's leave conspiracy theories outside of this thread.
__________________
|
|
2012-03-10, 23:42 | Link #7 | |
思想工作
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Vereinigte Staaten
Age: 32
|
Quote:
What's the PoD? How did China avoid getting its outer borderlands taken by Russia, or did it fight to get them back? Other than that, it seems cool. I would suggest you focus on one or two regions though, rather than trying to cover the whole thing. |
|
2012-03-10, 23:58 | Link #8 |
cho~ kakkoii
Moderator
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: 3rd Planet
|
So the thread is pretty much about the fans of history who would try to recreate an alternative take by observing the basic facts. Okay, a fan creation thread! The thread is moved to the Fan Creation section of the forum.
__________________
|
2012-03-11, 00:18 | Link #9 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: قلوب المؤمنين
|
Quote:
@LeoXiao : They seized it back during the First Great War, and that's why Vladivostok (name changed back to Hǎishēnwǎi) still has a significant population of Russians up to modern days. Well, since the divergences I've chosen will both exert global impact, it's the burden I have to bear. Besides, I indeed want to see a very different world anyway, one that doesn't solely look up to the western civilization for modernism.
__________________
|
|
2012-03-11, 00:21 | Link #10 | ||
Megane girl fan
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Diagonally parked in a parallel universe.
Age: 56
|
Quote:
Quote:
Japan's Imperial Japanese Navy, are all the ships that were present in Real Life™ are in Alternate 1936™, or did Japan follow the Washington Treaty up until this time. Was there even a Washington treaty? Endless "Bizzaro world" Soul
__________________
|
||
2012-03-11, 01:05 | Link #11 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: قلوب المؤمنين
|
Quote:
As for naval limitation treaty, I'm still wondering. I'm still thinking whether to put Wilson in charge of US during 1910s. There are quite many differences this world's First Great War have from RL's WW1, primarily that Germany pretty much didn't set up any colony in Africa. But they'd still have some in Pacific. And I guess since the Great War will still exhaust its participants, maybe more then in RL due to different alliance system, similar situation that will lead to Washington Naval Treaty will still emerge post war. Thanks for pointing this out. I will think more about it
__________________
|
|
2012-03-11, 01:13 | Link #12 | ||
思想工作
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Vereinigte Staaten
Age: 32
|
Quote:
Quote:
|
||
2012-03-11, 01:34 | Link #13 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: قلوب المؤمنين
|
Quote:
2) They avoided the 20th century warlord era, but up to Xinhai revolution, their history didn't meaningfully differ from RL. Only that during Boxer rebellion, instead of Eight Nations Alliance, you have Nine Nations Alliance, adding Ottoman Empire into the coallition. I wonder how much this will render Chinese muslims alienated later down the line, and the Chinese general policy of later times towards Islam religion. But I envision the creation of relatively significant Hui community in Nusantara (Indonesia) due to this. And, there will also likely be the tension in Central Asia between Chinese in Xinjiang and Ottoman dominion of Turkestan, out of former's suspicion regarding possible Pan-Islamic agenda to threaten Chinese territorial integrity.
__________________
|
|
2012-03-11, 01:58 | Link #14 |
18782+18782=37564
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: InterWebs
|
So you created the thread at last.
Well, honestly I don't have anything in mind right now. I enjoy reading AH (alternate history), but I can't create one. Though, maybe here's some thought: What if Al-Andalus existed longer or Reconquista of Iberia plain failed or delayed a great deal? I've heard that Granada played a crucial part in the European world's discovery of new new worlds, so I'm thinking what this would lead to.
__________________
|
2012-03-11, 02:14 | Link #15 | ||
思想工作
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Vereinigte Staaten
Age: 32
|
Quote:
Quote:
|
||
2012-03-11, 03:31 | Link #16 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: قلوب المؤمنين
|
Quote:
Islamic colonization will differ greatly then Christian european one due to many reasons, mainly in political culture, and also the prosetylization style. And it'd be quite effort-intensive to speculate, but I think it's safe to expect less racism and top-down religious enforcement from the muslims, the Andalusians at least. I think it will closest resemble Omani empire in east Africa during 19th century, without the lucrative slave trade since Native Amerindians will just drop like flies from Old World diseases. Instead, as Europeans did in RL, Africans will be imported to work in plantation economy, and muslim world had easier access to African slave market. I don't think something like a casta system like what the Spanish developed in their American colonies will emerge though, since not only that Islam has been more explicitly liberal in regards to the matters of race then Christian Europe, but also because that Islamic rulings regarding slavery are quite regulative and somewhat more humane, besides the fact that muslim world had much more experience of enslaving people from varieties of races. Expect european slaves in domestic sector. As for the spread of Islam in the New world, I think it will follow the general pattern the history has seen elsewhere, which means pretty much disorganized matter. Islam lacks the hierarchical clergy that can organize and coordinate missionary activities, so the spread will be gradual through trade. However, you should expect more conversion by the sword from the converted native states, since they'd be much closer to polytheists and would be under more pressure to build a power base to coopt with the geopolitical changes Islam would be bringing... As for how fast the muslim empire(s) in Americas will expand, I'm more inclined to think that it'll be slower then RL European empires, with less appetite for settler colonies, but I'm not entirely sure. It depends on how large the powerbase and resources they have at home. What's your Point of Divergence for surviving Al Andalus ? This Battle ? Quote:
China needed more then a mere 3 years to reclaim their frontier territories. Actually, I'm not even sure if I should have this world's Great War beginning in 1914. But it will be in 1910s. Since unlike in RL, China will border with a nation part of enemy camp, and so will Japan, which makes me wonder whether my design for Manchuria for this time is valid...
__________________
Last edited by Ridwan; 2012-03-11 at 04:51. |
||
2012-03-11, 06:16 | Link #17 | |
18782+18782=37564
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: InterWebs
|
Quote:
Btw did we have Islamic colonization of America IOTL?
__________________
|
|
2012-03-11, 06:46 | Link #18 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: قلوب المؤمنين
|
Quote:
Umayyads' inactiveness in proselytizing Islam to their christian subjects also contributed to the fragileness of Umayyad political structure, as it prevented the muslim population from growing sufficiently large to be the base of a more cohesive polity. You can say that it was maybe why the suceeding regimes that came from North Africa embarked on forced conversion campaign. They were indeed fanatical to begin with, but there was likely to be political visionary consideration behind it. So, we either need to make Umayyads less alergic to the idea of letting jizya tax-base to deplet through too much conversion to Islam, or less ethnic rivalry. Eliminating Asturias should also help. And to answer your second question, no it didn't happen. At best, there were muslim slaves being brought to work in plantations in the Americas. Brazil had the largest number of them.
__________________
|
|
2012-03-13, 21:59 | Link #20 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: قلوب المؤمنين
|
Quote:
Alternatively, you can have the muslims conquering southern France in order to extend the buffer. 2) Taking aside the doability of the scenario (I just mildly doubt it, because I don't know enough), if he managed to won English throne, I guess the country will possibly remain anglo-saxon and more oriented to Northern Europe, instead of to France. William of Normandy was a major turning point in England's history, without which english language won't have so much Latin influence in it. And instead, we'd call it "inglisc" or something similar sounding.... EDIT : I think you should check this thread. ================================================== ===== And now, it's my turn to ask, to Sumeragi. About the thing you told me some days ago regarding MacArthur being proxy of Japanophile lobby in US that allowed post-war Japan to rebound spectacularly as we know it. Quote:
Best regards, Suryaningrat
__________________
|
||
Tags |
alternate history, discussion, fiction, history |
|
|