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Old 2017-09-22, 01:24   Link #3181
Rising Dragon
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She didn't need the Relic to utilize the Saint's Armor at first, no. But the problem with the Relics, in that they are Cores for the Saint's Cradle, is that once fused they're not meant to be removed. It's what keeps the Sankt Kaiser under the control of the Cradle's defensive systems, to use them endlessly until it finally burns the life right out of the Kaiser after some few years and necessitates a new Kaiser to take up the throne.

Nanoha forcing the destruction of Vivio's fused Core had to have done serious damage to Vivio as a mage, resulting in the loss of her genetic defense and most of her mana reserve.

As for her tanking the Starlight Breaker, I haven't read the chapter yet as I'm waiting on the translation. But one theory is that by condensing power into a smaller point, it's going to outperform something that has a wider spread. If Vivio's Sacred Defender tactic somehow just focuses that energy into one spot and forces it to spread out around her, perhaps with a sloped barrier, then Vivio really only needs to tank one small area within the Starlight Breaker. It depends on the depiction and description used in the story, I suppose.
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Old 2017-09-22, 09:28   Link #3182
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Ehhhh, that explanation is kinda weak IMO. It would be fine if the attack simply nuked her mana capacity or something, but removing something that is genetic and automatic. Ehh, I have issues with that still.

And this feeds back into the SLB problem. Sure the tehnically might be able to stop the SLB on one point, allthough given how A) her defensive abilities are in general seriously sub par B) her mana capacity was damaged C) SLB is meant to punch through not through just normal defenses but pretty much through anything. The only thing IMO that I would be able to stomach stopping it would be either something Reinforce/Defence System casts, or an attack of comparable strength.

Given all that I find it doubtful she would be able to stop it even at a point, and she would STILL need to put up a shield over the rest of her body, or most of it. And that shield would still need to be really strong, or RIDICULOUSLY slopped. Because it needs to provide the level of protection that is kinda possibly superior to one of the barriers that Defence System put up. And I don't see Vivio being ever able to do that.

Now some might say, "Oh you just don't want Nanoha to loose, lardy dardy da". Well they are correct. But I don't want Nanoha to loose because frankly Vivio is yet to show that she is anything but a pretty good amateur SERIOUSLY gimped in many areas with her focus on fist fighting instead of choosing a style more suitable to her.
Even leaving that aside her defenses have always been seriously subpar. So having her tank an SLB, something that IMO you either dodge or you counter or else you are defeated no matter who you are, is frankly an insult to the older generation. So I'm calling a BS on this, and I kinda think there is no way they are going to explain it sufficiently.

The ONLY way I can see it working, requires Nanoha to be going easy on her, and casting it early in the fight, with no cartridge boosts at which point it's no stronger than a full DB. And that is NOT tanking an SLB.
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Old 2017-10-25, 00:48   Link #3183
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Ok, In the latest RAW chapters of Vivid, is a battle of Vivio vs Nanoha. Vivio tanked SLB, Vivio wins. I want a coherent explanation of how this can happen, that will put my mind in ease and enable me to move on.
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Old 2017-10-25, 04:24   Link #3184
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Originally Posted by alex_drian View Post
Ok, In the latest RAW chapters of Vivid, is a battle of Vivio vs Nanoha. Vivio tanked SLB, Vivio wins. I want a coherent explanation of how this can happen, that will put my mind in ease and enable me to move on.
I don't think we will ever get a good coherent explanation for it and it will be left a mystery just like what happen to the Clover Organization in Triangle Heart 3 which were never defeated.

The best answer I can give you is they are ending the manga by chapter 102 so they were just trying to final up the plot point of Vivid wanting to beat her mother in battle.
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Old 2017-10-25, 12:48   Link #3185
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I don't think we will ever get a good coherent explanation for it and it will be left a mystery just like what happen to the Clover Organization in Triangle Heart 3 which were never defeated.

The best answer I can give you is they are ending the manga by chapter 102 so they were just trying to final up the plot point of Vivid wanting to beat her mother in battle.
Well, for what I hear, in this battle Vivio had like 20 adventage above Nanoha aside of the Limiters, like a field of anti-gravity-thing for Vivio to "fly", and the battle is kind of the type of will force against the timer, where Vivio change her adult for extra time for stand up. I took this with a grain of salt, but if is like that somewhat that can put my mind in ease.

Otherwise is the curse of Original MC jobbing in the New MC or Original MC jobbing against a enemy that the New MC defeat later. Happens in Kinnikuman, Saint Seiya, Pretty Rhythm? (yeah, in idol anime kinda happen), DBZ (Kinda) and apparently Naruto go there.
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Old 2017-10-26, 08:27   Link #3186
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I can't read Japanese, but I think Vivid is over now.

Spoiler for Final Chapter?:
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Old 2017-10-26, 08:55   Link #3187
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Originally Posted by alex_drian View Post
Well, for what I hear, in this battle Vivio had like 20 adventage above Nanoha aside of the Limiters, like a field of anti-gravity-thing for Vivio to "fly", and the battle is kind of the type of will force against the timer, where Vivio change her adult for extra time for stand up. I took this with a grain of salt, but if is like that somewhat that can put my mind in ease.

Otherwise is the curse of Original MC jobbing in the New MC or Original MC jobbing against a enemy that the New MC defeat later. Happens in Kinnikuman, Saint Seiya, Pretty Rhythm? (yeah, in idol anime kinda happen), DBZ (Kinda) and apparently Naruto go there.
I wouldn't mind Vivio being able to fight at Nanoha's level HAD she earned it in ANY form or shape during the run of Vivid. But she really hasn't, and the recent power upping is a bit too little too late. And on top of it all just to smash ANY kind of coherency they have her block SLB?!? Which is something much better fighters can't take on the chin and she with her worse defences tanks. Soooo f- Vivid and it's BS.

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Originally Posted by Some random Otaku View Post
I can't read Japanese, but I think Vivid is over now.

Spoiler for Final Chapter?:
Oh yeah. We have known for some time that "December" issue that was supposed to start selling on 26th of October (what, how, I have no idea).
Supposedly the Reflection manga (set in the same AU/time as Reflection proper) will appear in "February" issue and will start selling on 26th of December.
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Old 2017-10-27, 01:31   Link #3188
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I wouldn't mind Vivio being able to fight at Nanoha's level HAD she earned it in ANY form or shape during the run of Vivid. But she really hasn't, and the recent power upping is a bit too little too late. And on top of it all just to smash ANY kind of coherency they have her block SLB?!? Which is something much better fighters can't take on the chin and she with her worse defences tanks. Soooo f- Vivid and it's BS.
Not to mention Vivio kept jobbing afterwards as she's far from the top during Vivid Strike. Defeating the Ace of Aces is a pretty big deal. How in the world isn't Vivio destroying every competition she's in afterwards? Heck even Sieglinde tried and failed her luck fighting Nanoha.
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Old 2017-10-27, 01:44   Link #3189
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Did you even watch ViVid Strike!, Aki? Vivio was decimating nearly every competitor she fought, with only other anomalous opponents preventing it from being a curbstomp, like Rinne was. In VS!, whenever Vivio, Einhart, Miura, or Fuuka got into the ring, they typically ended the fight in less than a minute via K.O.. Even as good as Rinne was, Vivio defeated her twice.
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Old 2017-10-27, 18:27   Link #3190
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Eh. Sure, she defeated Rinne, and took terrible damage to do it. But that was more because she is an asymmetric counter to Rinne's style. Rinne was trained to get a hold of her opponent and use raw brawn to destroy them. Vivio is a technician so grabbing her should be REALLY hard.
TBH I don't know how she kept knocking Rinne out despite later's toughness. And really that entire tournament isn't a proper display of actual fighting prowess since it limited things to just silly punching. In the actual brakcet Vivo is in she is what? 9th or something? I don't think she is even in top 5. And this is just U16.
So no. Despite her being able to beat Rinne, her practically ONLY victory so far in the ring against a credible threat, that it seems, given her record, is not saying much on her strength comparable to her peers.
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Old 2017-10-27, 19:49   Link #3191
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She was aiming solely for Rinne's head when she did her Axel Smash.
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Old 2017-10-28, 11:44   Link #3192
Akiyoshi
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Did you even watch ViVid Strike!, Aki? Vivio was decimating nearly every competitor she fought, with only other anomalous opponents preventing it from being a curbstomp, like Rinne was. In VS!, whenever Vivio, Einhart, Miura, or Fuuka got into the ring, they typically ended the fight in less than a minute via K.O.. Even as good as Rinne was, Vivio defeated her twice.
Impressive within the normal context of her capabilities but she beat Nanoha in combat. A feat not even the undisputed champion of all dimensions was able to achieve. It doesn't make sense she's just 5th-8th place a year later. Specially when most of her competition also had a shot against the Ace of Aces and didn't make it. They still try to play the "Vivio is unsuited for combat/underdog" card when she already won over one of the strongest war veterans there is it just doesn't fit her anymore.
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Old 2017-10-28, 11:52   Link #3193
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Just because you defeated one particular opponent doesn't mean someone else can't come and dethrone you afterwards.

After all, Fate was once better than Nanoha too, but that didn't last. Sieglinde was an undisputed champion when she was in the Inter-Middle; didn't stop Victoria from coming out on top in ViVid Strike!.

The thing about Vivio training with her friends all the time is that they figure out her strengths and weaknesses and learn how to counter them. Sure, Vivio beat Nanoha once. What should that matter to Einhart, who beat Vivio a bunch of times before that, and probably a bunch of times after that?

That said, feel free to show me where they played the "unsuited for combat" card after she beat Nanoha. Go on, I'll wait. Last I checked, it only ever appeared before that point. Not to mention that the story showed up that every time someone played that card, Vivio didn't let it stop her.
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Old 2017-10-28, 12:12   Link #3194
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I get the purpose of Nanoha as Final Boss in Vivid, only I don't like the way of this was handled, but yeah, I almost never I like see the Original MC defeat in favor of New MC, only with a lighty explanation would put my mind in ease. The Limiters?, yeah, one explanation, the field? yeah, other explanation, Vivio winning in shounen way against a timer with will force whereas Nanoha remained in one knee, I can somewhat accept it. Vivio tanked a SLB in Blast 2, is the most difficult for justify, the only that I can picture is the limiters and Vivio putting all in Sacred Defender.
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Old 2017-10-28, 15:40   Link #3195
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Pretty sure the unsuited for fistfighting and such bit appeared even recently, but not after the Nanoha bit, because well, we are yet to see in translated form that bit.

Although that villain who gets away with it of a coach that Rinne had, I think was gloating/whining about how unsuited Viivo was in the course of her whole Darwinism shtick.

But that Vivo's trait seems to be something inherent to her, and not really something tactics can solve. It seems to me to be something like Hayate's lack of speed when computing spells and such.
And on the same note they did point out that her defenses in general were subpar because she simply did not have enough output if I remember correctly. Then again I think they go back and forth on the whole how effective Vivio is for sake of drama.
But she was never really shown to be someone who could stand shoulder to shoulder with the veteran tournament fighters, let alone face Nanoha, who is an actual COMBAT veteran.

So watching Vivid and ignoring Strike (which can even be justified by the fact that the format of tournament there was so unlike the regular one to not even matter) so far Vivio's performance was REALLY lackluster. Which I guess is fine given how new to it all she is, but then you can't go from Vivio can BARELY defeat Einhard using a STUPIDLY dangerous technique when Einhard is basically out of it, to taking on Nanoha in like 20-30 chapters.

And the writter is aware of the screw up of nerfing Vivio waaaaaayyy too much hence the whole Space China arc to give the writer mandated explanation how she is SOMEHOW within inch of greatness... somehow... and likely the next 10-15 chapters will be about powering her up, which was supposed to be happening from the bloody start, not 3/4 of the way in.

And well, I call BS on that.

And just to be clear, I'm fine about someone beating Nanoha. I'm fine with Signum defeating her in majority of their matches (although I call BS on apparently Nanoha never wining against her), I'm also fine with Teana being able to out think her, since that is Teana's whole thing or maybe Subaru being able to match her in a pure strength match. All of those are credible opponents. But they are credible because they have a thing that can get them there, and have been shown for it to be their thing from the start.
Vivio's main thing in Vivid was that she was bland happy protagonist... that was under powered but wanted to get better. The later is not a bad place to start, which is where the majority of shonen shows start me thinks, but Vivid pretty much did nothing to it.
Instead of following the shonen trope of facing against the stronger and stronger opponents, which while tropey DOES work, the manga kinda ditched Vivio along the way and focused on Einhard the most and when it did finally work through the Einhard issues about 2/3 of the way in, the writer seemed to finally have remembered he needed to do something about Vivio. Well no, the writer remembered there wasn't much fan service recently, so he added that. But once THAT was over it was time to rapidly do something with Vivio, hence SPACE CHINA.
And it seems the actual, facing against the escalating stronger opponents bit will be covered by like last 10 or so chapters which is like....

Oh great. I went wall of text ranting mode.
Sorry about that.

TLDR: Sure the weakness was not mentioned AFTER Nanoha fight, because manga stops after that, but the anime that comes after that treats someone who could go toe to toe with Ace of Aces of the Buerou as just another U16 competitor. And the Nanoha bit comes after manga spending most of it's run time not doing anything about Vivio's weakness or actually showing she is capable combatant. HELL her only victory against named credible opponent in competition comes in FUCKING Strike.
So, due to UTTER lack of preparation for this final fight where Vivio is supposed to win somehow, I'm calling BS.
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Old 2017-10-29, 00:45   Link #3196
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Originally Posted by 4th Dimension View Post
Pretty sure the unsuited for fistfighting and such bit appeared even recently, but not after the Nanoha bit, because well, we are yet to see in translated form that bit.

Although that villain who gets away with it of a coach that Rinne had, I think was gloating/whining about how unsuited Viivo was in the course of her whole Darwinism shtick.

But that Vivo's trait seems to be something inherent to her, and not really something tactics can solve. It seems to me to be something like Hayate's lack of speed when computing spells and such.
And on the same note they did point out that her defenses in general were subpar because she simply did not have enough output if I remember correctly. Then again I think they go back and forth on the whole how effective Vivio is for sake of drama.
But she was never really shown to be someone who could stand shoulder to shoulder with the veteran tournament fighters, let alone face Nanoha, who is an actual COMBAT veteran.

So watching Vivid and ignoring Strike (which can even be justified by the fact that the format of tournament there was so unlike the regular one to not even matter) so far Vivio's performance was REALLY lackluster. Which I guess is fine given how new to it all she is, but then you can't go from Vivio can BARELY defeat Einhard using a STUPIDLY dangerous technique when Einhard is basically out of it, to taking on Nanoha in like 20-30 chapters.

And the writter is aware of the screw up of nerfing Vivio waaaaaayyy too much hence the whole Space China arc to give the writer mandated explanation how she is SOMEHOW within inch of greatness... somehow... and likely the next 10-15 chapters will be about powering her up, which was supposed to be happening from the bloody start, not 3/4 of the way in.

And well, I call BS on that.

And just to be clear, I'm fine about someone beating Nanoha. I'm fine with Signum defeating her in majority of their matches (although I call BS on apparently Nanoha never wining against her), I'm also fine with Teana being able to out think her, since that is Teana's whole thing or maybe Subaru being able to match her in a pure strength match. All of those are credible opponents. But they are credible because they have a thing that can get them there, and have been shown for it to be their thing from the start.
Vivio's main thing in Vivid was that she was bland happy protagonist... that was under powered but wanted to get better. The later is not a bad place to start, which is where the majority of shonen shows start me thinks, but Vivid pretty much did nothing to it.
Instead of following the shonen trope of facing against the stronger and stronger opponents, which while tropey DOES work, the manga kinda ditched Vivio along the way and focused on Einhard the most and when it did finally work through the Einhard issues about 2/3 of the way in, the writer seemed to finally have remembered he needed to do something about Vivio. Well no, the writer remembered there wasn't much fan service recently, so he added that. But once THAT was over it was time to rapidly do something with Vivio, hence SPACE CHINA.
And it seems the actual, facing against the escalating stronger opponents bit will be covered by like last 10 or so chapters which is like....

Oh great. I went wall of text ranting mode.
Sorry about that.

TLDR: Sure the weakness was not mentioned AFTER Nanoha fight, because manga stops after that, but the anime that comes after that treats someone who could go toe to toe with Ace of Aces of the Buerou as just another U16 competitor. And the Nanoha bit comes after manga spending most of it's run time not doing anything about Vivio's weakness or actually showing she is capable combatant. HELL her only victory against named credible opponent in competition comes in FUCKING Strike.
So, due to UTTER lack of preparation for this final fight where Vivio is supposed to win somehow, I'm calling BS.
Even with all the advantages in the actual match? Well, I don't know for sure if is true because the chaters aren't translated.
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Old 2017-10-29, 02:25   Link #3197
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Even with all the advantages in the actual match? Well, I don't know for sure if is true because the chaters aren't translated.
Err, that was not a short rant. What part are you replying to?
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Old 2017-10-29, 02:59   Link #3198
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For all intentions and purposes Vivio should be stronger than Sieglinde by Strike.

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I'm fine with Signum defeating her in majority of their matches (although I call BS on apparently Nanoha never wining against her)
Mostly agree with most of your post but just to clarify the opponent Signum beat several times was Fate, not Nanoha. They have fought yes, but there's only explicit mention of two fights between them and both ended up in a draw (arguably the second one ended up more on Signum's favor even though they agreed to call it a draw).

And now I have the fun conclusion that Vivio might be able to beat Signum. Why in the world wasn't she sent against the Huckebein? She can take down elite mages with her fists. She's clearly a pretty damn good asset.
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Old 2017-10-29, 03:08   Link #3199
Rising Dragon
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Yeah, the magical cripple with gimmicky defense should totally be able to defeat the girl with 500+ years of pure combat experience and a built-in automatic defense mode on top of monstrous physical and magical strength, who is also training constantly.

Uhuh. Yeah, sure, Aki.
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Old 2017-10-29, 03:11   Link #3200
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The former defeated one of the greatest combat mages of the modern era. The later failed trying.
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