2013-05-26, 22:48 | Link #4281 | |
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He doesn't even mention Shirou, he goes on and on about how this war is practically useless and then says The condition to fight for the Holy Grail is terrible. " But one thing that "thing" created after a lot of work has been completed perfectly." Also it's mentioning Rin that sets Sakura off, Sakura immediately ties that to Rin killing Shirou. You may say well that's because he knows that Sakura and Shirou are friends and close because of that walk home. If he is just observing in the war he will no doubt see that they have that connection again. Then he will give her the whole Rin will win speech and that will trigger Sakura. |
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2013-05-27, 08:56 | Link #4282 |
Casting a spell on you...
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Like I said, it was really because the stars aligned the way he wanted, and she let her guard down somewhat because she happened to be worried about Shirou that night as they talked, which would be the difference, the scene in question points out that her finding out Shirou had the mark was the dealbreaker.
Its possible that he could take advantage of other things(he uses Rin, Shirou, and her pity for Shinji in HF for example), but Nasu 100% confirmed that it would not go down as it had in the other routes, nor would the Black Grail be manifested. |
2013-05-27, 08:58 | Link #4283 | |||||||||||||||||||
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Also, are you sure Sakura is mentioned as one of the victims of the bloodfort? That seems odd to me, given that she's Rider's real master and, also, a powerful magus. Quote:
Also, why are you using spoiler-tags, this is a thread for free spoilering? Quote:
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And, also, doing it that way would remove all possible suspense. Whilst I don't like how Sakura is entirely ignored in UBW and Fate, to the point that we genuinely do not have a clue what her fate might be, if her relationship with Rin and mastership of Rider was covered in the other two routes then HF would have no suspense. Further, I'm not sure how we could cover all that in a way that didn't end up looking ridiculous in the way the Sakura elements of the anime did. Quote:
Also, killing Zouken without also killing Sakura is quite difficult, and I very much doubt Kotomine would be overly bothered about killing Sakura if it made his life easier. So, the fact that she's still alive and shows no signs of trauma from having Zouken removed from her implies he's probably not dead. Quote:
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And, he's not exactly doing nothing, as such, he's still got Shinji fighting on his behalf. He just isn't doing anything that might put him in direct danger. Quote:
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That is how the genre works, and I see no problem with it. It is just a way to develop the characters and plot, and those scenes are genuinely important in many cases. Quote:
For one thing, she's ancient British, which has no real connection to the modern world. Also, so what if it's "obvious", that doesn't mean she won't say it. A good story is not going to only say things for your direct benefit, the characters exist to be characters, not solely to explain the plot to you. Quote:
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Also, it's not clear what exactly the Crest Worm can do. It can monitor Sakura's location, certainly, but I'm not sure Zouken can hear or see things she hears or sees through it. He probably can through the soul worm he has inside her, but only if he's specifically listening. Quote:
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2013-05-27, 17:08 | Link #4284 |
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In HF Zouken already knows she wont fight and also Shinji is about to get Rider shortly after. Sakura doesn't Fight at all during like 90% of the route. Idk im just finding it hard to accept that Zouken gives up so easily in Fate, he talks about how no one knows how painful it is to rot they way he is. Now his experiment turns out perfect and hes got the tools he needs to get what hes been after for hundreds of years, an opportunity like that may never happen again. In HF creating that small opening in Sakura was as simple as mentioning Rin. granted its because he knows about Shirou.
Think about this for a second, WE all could see plain as day that Sakura has feelings for Shirou right from Fate alone. I Think its sorta pushing it to say Zouken wouldn't notice over the course of an entire year. Even if he didn't, consider this for a moment. In Fate Shirou is inside the Matou house when he talks to Shinji, as soon as he finds out Matou is a magi family Shirou asks if Sakura learned magic as well. When Shinji tells him only the heir learns and she doesn't know anything Shirou says I see, thank god then. Right after refusing to join Shinji, Shirou himself tells shinji that he may be persistent and asks about Sakura again. Once Shinji answers him Shirou says "That'll help. I want Sakura to stay like that." Shinji replies by saying if hes worried about Sakura so much he should thank Shirou as her brother. I mean come on this was in the damn guys house you KNOW Zouken would be listening lmao. Zouken is such a dang pain in the ass and hes a master manipulator, right there he would of Jumped for joy and used that information. He wouldn't have a reason not to, he would try to mess with Sakura's mind again. From HF we know how the guy is and i'm just finding it very hard to believe that he would overlook such things and not keep trying. No one knows about him so hes not really in any risk, the only Reason that would make sense is if hes dead. The only way that could happen is if in the Fate route he doesn't have as long as he does in the other Routes and he has Withered away, because I have to admit trying to kill that guy takes way too much effort without Sakura being hurt. Kotomine doing the baptism rite on sakura is a stretch too lol. I don't think its too crazy to think he withered because in HF Kotomine thought he did, and says so in the tofu scene and Zouken tells Illya in the forest that hes reached his limit and needs a permanent body. All the routes are sort of their own separate story and what may be true in one isn't guaranteed in the other. In Fate he may have just run out of time for the convenience of the story and they do a subtle hint through Kotomine saying hes already retired. That way it wouldn't be some huge plothole like I personally think it is if he is alive, again my opinion. Either way, I realize I am being difficult and stubborn. I apologize if im frustrating anyone and I thank you guys for being so patient with me haha. That said, none of you guys have to reply to my posts anymore if you don't want to :P |
2013-05-27, 19:44 | Link #4285 | |||||||
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2013-06-10, 21:16 | Link #4286 | ||||||
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You cant look at all 3 routes at the same time otherwise you get a conclusion like that. Nasu says "If all of these became possible at the same time, the other routes would become meaningless." Depending which you decide is the main route makes the remaining two what If stories. In Fate he is withered, if say what if he was alive then we get HF. HF is evidence that if the guy is alive then HF will result. Especially in Fate, Shirou constantly nags Shinji about Sakura inside Zouken's own home. Im sure you can agree that Zouken acts in HF because he has the knowledge of Shirou's connection to Sakura. The scene in the house in Fate proves their connection wayyyy more than Shirou simply walking Sakura home in HF. So Zouken alive in Fate would make the Fate Route impossible because he would act on his "perfect" experiment and the route would turn into HF. Having him alive in Fate is a plothole, so to avoid the plot hole he must be dead. |
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2013-06-11, 08:41 | Link #4287 |
Casting a spell on you...
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Sakura became the grail by very subtle trolling at a certain point in time that Zouken used, its the Butterfly Effect at work, which accidentally opened the gate, and started to taint her, he never expected things to get to that level(of course he was stupid to think that tainting a prototype he specifically made to be incompatible was a good thing is proof he is both lacking in insight and mad). Read the convo he had with Shirou again on day 12 carefully, as well as his talks with Assassin, Sakura, even when tainted unconsciously rejected AM until the end where she broke down, he had to troll quite a bit to get where we were by the end.
Also, Nasu said that if any of the routes are canon, then the other two would be meaningless, because of the parallel worlds issue, one world being the one true canon is impossible. So yes, Zouken can outlive Sakura based on the way he is experimenting on her and the fact that he already has plans to use her children for his goals since Fate/zero, which ties into every route, because it's is the irrefutable past of the main characters and why the story is as we see in FSN. The parallel worlds don't create a plot hole, Rin and Sakura are sisters, their father and mother are always dead, Sakura is always adopted by the Matou family for these iteration of parallel worlds; all of these things remain the same, how they end are the only differences. |
2013-06-12, 17:12 | Link #4288 | |
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His main goal from the very beginning of HF was to utilize his PERFECT experiment. The only thing he didn't expect was that she would turn out perfect like she did, that's what makes him start trolling. Since all the routes share a common origin there is nothing special that happens during those first 3 days that magically turns Sakura from failed experiment to a perfect tool. She has the capability in each route, a lot of people seem to agree that knowledge of Shirou and Sakura caring for each other is the key that drove Zouken to start cattle prodding. Considering that, Fate would be a prime candidate for a HF scenario since there is greater information available revealing the bond those two have if you look at the scene where Shinji tries to get Shirou to join him. The guy has lived for hundreds of years he isn't going to just prod a few times and quit if his experiment ends up coming out perfectly. His original plan to use her children is irrelevant the moment he finds out how suited Sakura is. When he made that plan it was because she was just a lab rat to him with no future. When that lab rat becomes a masterpiece you can be damn sure your gonna do everything you possibly can to utilize this chance you've been given. Especially after unbearable decay going on for hundreds of years. That's why saying he just sat and watched in Fate is so dang preposterous to me. The perfect opportunity presents itself and he just says nah ill take my chances down the road? I also don't buy that he has so much more time at his disposal, in HF the route where he is most prominent he tells Illya himself that he is at his limit and needs a permanent body. |
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2013-06-12, 17:47 | Link #4289 | |
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2013-06-12, 22:07 | Link #4290 | |
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2013-06-18, 11:51 | Link #4291 | |
Casting a spell on you...
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Next, Sakura wasn't used because there was no connection to AM, and she usually gives Rider to Shinji and moves on, rather than het conversation with Zouken that she had in HF. And Zouken didn't know how to make that connection, because Sakura took poisoning, abuse, experimentation, and a lot of other things and endured them, but he needed her to be mentally unstable to take her role as the Grail. Even during the route itself, he told Assassin that she was essentially unconsciously keeping AM in check while she was conscious, without being aware of it, and that was when he took the trolling to the next level. Unfortunately for him, it wasn't something he could control as well as he thought, see how he always stays out of the way when the Shadow appears. All that to say is that Sakura's emotional state caused the gate to accidently open, and for the connection to AM to manifest. Essentially, it was all an accident set up by her tense emotional state that even he didn't plan on, but to him seemed fortuitous, then he capitalized on it. His original plans were to use her children, but she was supposed to be a failed prototype he admits he slapped together by copying the Einzberns, meaning he didn't really know what he was doing. When he saw the potential in Avenger he planned to let her mind die by absorbing too many souls and then he would eat her brain, take her body, and manifest his wishes. That was the entirety of his thought process. Lastly, he had at least fifty more years by his calculations, and while the time between when he needed to change bodies was getting shorter, that doesn't mean his calculations on his time limit were wrong, and even then, its because the bodies he uses are normal people. |
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2013-06-18, 13:13 | Link #4292 | |||
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Personally, I think he can control it by talking to Sakura on a subconscious level. Since he's inside her, that shouldn't be too difficult. Quote:
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2013-06-18, 13:51 | Link #4294 | |
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But I think Rider only needed to drink blood because Shinji was a crappy magus and couldn't give her the prana she needed to sustain herself. When in Heaven's Feel Sakura is her master I don't think she still had that problem. |
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2013-06-18, 13:57 | Link #4295 | ||
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Sakura doesn't know, though, and would likely stop her if she did. Quote:
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2013-06-18, 13:59 | Link #4296 | |
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2013-06-18, 14:29 | Link #4298 | |
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I hope F/HA is similar to Kagetsu Tohya, because Kagetsu Tohya was a lot of fun. |
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2013-06-18, 17:10 | Link #4300 | ||
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Given that Melty Blood is Tsukihime, I doubt it.... Quote:
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fate/stay night, visual novel |
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