2013-01-20, 21:37 | Link #1341 | |
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And the body armor pretty much ensured that no one with a gun could have taken them down.
And if they didn't have access to guns, there is no way they could have taken down as many people. We can play this game all we like. Quote:
Homicide rate for various countries (per 100k people): United States: 4.8 Canada: 1.6 United Kingdom: 1.2 Australia: 1.0 Japan: 0.4 Huh. Countries with heavy gun regulation in effect, have a lower homicide rate, too. And if we don't want to look at other countries, we have the chart comparing states. Isn't it interesting, that all the southern states like Texas that have looser gun laws, have a higher homicide rate, too? Probably just a coincidence. |
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2013-01-20, 21:39 | Link #1342 | |||||||
Meh
Join Date: Feb 2008
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I think a good addition to what you're saying about man's nature is that man will always find a way to adapt. Do you think gangs will stop their killings if you banned handguns? your ban may very well reduce deaths in some areas, but what's the point if it's made up in other areas with increased stabbing, rapes, robberies or other violent crimes? Quote:
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Last edited by kyp275; 2013-01-20 at 21:53. |
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2013-01-20, 21:47 | Link #1343 | ||
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Join Date: May 2009
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Just look at the Empire State building shooting where the police injured more people than the shooter did. Also, CCW permit holders do go through a basic firearms training, though I have pushed for mandatory training and enrollment in the Civilian Marksmanship Program, yet even my Democrat senators won't listen. They just want to ban guns, which is a simpleton's approach to this issue. Quote:
Currently the FBI check doesn't have that, and it should. Mandatory training is a must, so we agree there. Most gun owners do store their weapons in a safe, so that isn't an issue per se. Plus enforcing such a law would be next to impossible. It didn't work in DC or Chicago, I highly doubt it would work in rural America at all or even other cities which view the 2nd amendment as an unalienable right.
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2013-01-20, 21:58 | Link #1344 | |||||||
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There is an old joke, about Churchill talking with a woman: Churchill: "Madam, would you sleep with me for 1 million pounds?" Woman: "Oh my goodness, well, we might just have to talk about that." Churchill: "Madam, would you sleep with me for 5 pounds?" Woman: "What kind of woman do you think I am!?" Churchill: "Madam, we've already established that. Now we're just haggling over the price." With respect to guns/arms/nukes/etc, we've already established things. Now we're just haggling over the price. Quote:
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In short, we can't know the future. That is why we experiment. I would have called Prohibition a good idea, and at least something to try. Having tried it, and seeing the effect, I would now say it isn't a good idea. Quote:
Now, if we want to play the presumption game, what if someone is there with a gun, and decided to start shooting anyway, and hit innocent bystanders? Therefore, a good person with a gun can increase casualties as much as decrease them. My thought: Let's experiment. Quote:
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Another article analyzing the Aussie situation. Last edited by Kaijo; 2013-01-20 at 22:09. |
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2013-01-20, 22:12 | Link #1345 | |
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They aren't dealing in facts as a whole, they are simply making gross assumptions without looking at all of the factors involved. SOURCE: (FBI Uniform Crime Statistics 2011): Take the murders per 100,000 by state. Louisiana has very light gun control laws and has the highest murder rate at 11.4 per 100,000. Yet Puerto Rico has some of the strictest gun control laws in the US (since they are a territory) and they have a rate of 30.6 per 100,000. On the low end of the scale we have Vermont with very lax gun control laws (they even have open carry without a permit) at 1.3 per 100,000. Yet when contrasted with Hawaii, which has very strict gun control laws, we see that Hawaii has a murder rate of only 1.2 per 100,000. What does that show us? It shows us that murder per 100,000 has nothing to do with guns, and everything to do with standard of living, education, and population density.
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2013-01-20, 22:13 | Link #1346 | |||||||
Meh
Join Date: Feb 2008
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As for the Godzilla part, that's just you engaging in hyperbole Quote:
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That said, I personally have never met any CCW holders that thinks as recklessly as the one in your scenario. Quote:
as for those articles, the nieman article makes the same mistakes you do - nothing but gun ownership and gun deaths, have a small section at the end on the different social aspect between Australia and US, but makes no effort to integrate those information or to try to contextualize anything. The snopes article is great at showing how statistics can be skewed - but otherwise makes no meaningful comparisons of its own, as it was not the point of the article. The end of it though, is worth repeating here: Quote:
Last edited by kyp275; 2013-01-20 at 22:32. |
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2013-01-20, 22:28 | Link #1347 | ||||||
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Also, Puerto Rico isn't a state, but a territory. You are the one who wants to exclude every country because you can't compare it to the US. Puerto Rico essentially is another country. We defend it militarily from outside aggressors, but very little else. So, we are limited to looking at the comparisons between the 50 states, and nothing else. So yes, Lousiana has the lightest gun laws and highest homicide rate. Don't tell me that you firmly believe that the gun laws have absolutely zero to do with it. Quote:
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The part about Godzilla, is that you can't make a decision today, based on what *might* happen tomorrow. You could walk out of your house tomorrow and be hit with a meteorite, or another car. Does that mean you stay in your house? Quote:
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2013-01-20, 22:41 | Link #1348 |
Knight Errant
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Age: 35
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Guns are not a precise weapon. Let's not forget that trained soldiers have trouble keeping down "collateral damage", and they have years of training and experience. Put a CCW holder in a large crowd with a single gunman, and they might not do better. They might even panic and "spray and pray".
Also, for what it's worth, there is no western industrialized country in the world with a higher homicide rate then the USA. Having spent substantial amounts of time on both sides of the Atlantic, the only difference I can perceive between the US and Europe (besides the US having nicer restaurant service) is the gun laws. Otherwise, Europe has just as much crazy people, minorities, gangs, drug use, video games, poverty... I mean people underestimate how similar America and Europe are. I mean many of the sins people put at the feet of America, are similarly bad in Europe. (For instance, Europe has almost as much wealth inequality as the USA, we have just as many mega corporations...) So why does Europe have such low homicide rates, if not for the lack of guns? If you were to remove America's gun homicides from it's homicide total, it would be almost the same most European states. |
2013-01-20, 22:42 | Link #1349 |
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Just an FYI, but if you don't want someone to talk to you, you can go to their profile page and click the "ignore this user" option.
Also, it's worth noting in all this, since we are an anime forum, is Japan's gun situation. http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...ro-gun-deaths/ kinda sums things up nicely. I'll copy and paste this one quote from the bottom that sums things up: "That U.S. firearm law developed to protect gun rights first and public safety second, whereas Japan privileged public safety, is both telling and reflects feelings and priorities that go much deeper than just this one issue. That’s not something that can be reversed with a single bill or news conference, not that I’m arguing it should be. The individual liberty vs. public safety trade-off is not an easy one to make, and though Japan’s policy does appear to save thousands of lives when compared to America’s, it comes at real costs." Public Safety vs. Individual Liberty. I kinda agree with him that it is not an easy decision to make, and is a decision we have to make in more areas than just guns. But at this point, with regards to guns, I am leaning toward Public Safety. In other matters, I may lean toward Individual Liberty. It's a personal decision. |
2013-01-20, 22:43 | Link #1350 | |||||
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And FYI, if that was the case, then I'll take a look at the alleged flaws and apply the same standard to which I've always do. Quote:
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Also, I'd contest your view about "small fraction of the populace", if gun owners really ARE a small fraction of the populace, gun control legislature would've rolled through congress a long time ago. Quote:
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2013-01-20, 22:45 | Link #1351 |
Gamilas Falls
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Republic of California
Age: 46
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I would find sonic and blinding weapons to be even less precise. Nerve gas extremely imprecise (one of the key reasons for Chemical weapons to be banned following the First World War was because the various gases had the unfortunate habit of being subject to the weather and harming friendly troops as much or more than the enemy troops).
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2013-01-20, 22:46 | Link #1352 | |
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So a more realistic comparison is as follows: If we compare the US murder rate to Europe as a whole, we find something rather interesting (EU crime statistics 2010). Land Mass: Europe- 10,180,000 Sq/KM US- 9,826,675 Sq/KM Population: Europe- 836,398,000 US- 309,496,000 Murder Rate: Europe- 4.83 per 100,000 US- 4.58 per 100,000 Gun Ownership: Europe- 12,000 per 100,000 US- 90,000 per 100,000 Europe's murder rate of 4.83 per 100,000 is higher than that of the United States' 4.58 per 100,000, but has only 14% the civilian gun ownership of the U.S. Conversely, the U.S. has 7.33 times the civilian gun ownership of Europe, but a lower murder rate. That's an accurate comparison, not this UK verses US bullshit.
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2013-01-20, 22:53 | Link #1353 |
Gamilas Falls
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Republic of California
Age: 46
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I believe Americans have a phase that goes something like, "Those that trade freedom for security deserve niether". Phrases like that started coming up more often after the Patriot Act came about.
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2013-01-20, 22:55 | Link #1354 | |
Meh
Join Date: Feb 2008
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The imprecise part that causes collateral damage is one of information - knowing what it is that you're shooting at, and what is around/beyond it. |
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2013-01-20, 22:56 | Link #1355 | |||||
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And I'll toss this bit out: The number of households with a gun is decreasing in the US, but the number of households with a gun who remain, are increasing the number of firearms they have. So guns are becoming more concentrated. Also, according to some statistics, roughly have the guns in the world, are concentrated within the US. Here are some other statistics, for those interested. Quote:
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Oh, and to clear up inaccurate numbers: The homicide rate in Europe ranges from 1.0 to 1.5 per 100k. The United States is 4.8. |
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2013-01-20, 23:06 | Link #1356 | |
Knight Errant
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Age: 35
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For one thing, in Russia the guns laws are lot more lax then in the rest of Europe (and corruption is rampant). So including Russia, and the other post Soviet Union states of Ukraine and Belarus really skews things, as the Post USSR states are quite different in terms of economic circumstances, civil liberties and laws compared to the rest of Europe. The USA and Mexico together would be ~9.6 homicides/100,000. I'd give you a combined Homicide rate for the EU, but I couldn't find anything besides individual countries. However "Northern Europe" has a homicide rate of 1.5, Western Europe 1.0 and Southern Europe 1.4. Eastern Europe (where, might I add, gun laws tend to be much looser) is 6.4 |
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2013-01-20, 23:06 | Link #1357 | |||||
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Perhaps you wouldn't mind making the US into a racially and ethnically homogenous country with a xenophobic society that discourages and look down on individuality that also happens to be a police state. I do. Quote:
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http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes...vide-is-sharp/ So I'd say it's more of a reflection that the left is becoming MORE anti-gun |
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2013-01-20, 23:14 | Link #1358 | |
Knight Errant
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Age: 35
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Furthermore, the weapon most CCW holders would carry (a handgun) is not a very accurate weapon, and more difficult to aim then a rifle. So Soldiers, using rifles and trained to aim, should have much better accuracy in combat then a civilian with mostly informal training and a handgun, and yet in the panic of battle soldiers (particularly rookies) will often miss and even hit civilians. I doubt a your neighborhood friendly gun enthusiast will do better. And he's much more likely to panic and underperform as it will most likely be the first combat situation he's ever experienced. I believe soldiers in their first combat situation do not usually perform well, even with all their training. Usually they need to be embedded among more experienced veterans to keep them cool. Though, that's just my perception, obviously I lack first hand knowledge (not being a soldier). |
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2013-01-20, 23:15 | Link #1359 | |||||
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And I'd hardly call Japan a police state. Quote:
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2013-01-20, 23:16 | Link #1360 | |
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Russia has a population of 141,000,000 with a total number of gun owners at 12,000,000 (approx) yet they have 5 times the violent crime and slightly more murders than we do at 13,100 homicides (source Russian Ministry of Internal Affairs report 2010). We do compare well with Russia in both land mass, and population density, as well as borders with nations that harbor organized crime (be it Drug Cartels or Terrorists isn't really an issue, as you said earlier, they are similar).
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