Suisei no Gargantia - Episode 11 Discussion / Poll

[Irenesharda]

Originally Posted by Endless Knackwurst

I'm still uncertain in the "Striker is doing the Wizard of Oz thing with a dead Kugel" area. What I'm pondering now is the significance of Ledo seeing Kugel (because Kugel is alive and/or Ledo won't follow anyone other than Kugel) while Pinion saw Striker. If Striker was able to imitate Kugel, I don't see why it would show itself as Striker to Pinion, unless Striker is smart enough to know that Pinion is better with machines than people.

And while I think that the idea that Striker could be keeping Kugel locked inside the MC for its own reasons is plausible, I don't know if a Striker vs. Kugel twist would just be adding unnecessarily to the twist pileup that is already happening at the end of the series.

I think it's all a matter of knowing who you're talking to. Striker would know that Red wouldn't obey the commands of a machine. He knows exactly what the Machine Calibers are capable of, how they were made and everything.

However, Pinion and the humans of Earth are still primitive and still treat Striker and Chamber with awe. They wouldn't question the fact that only a mech is talking to them. They have never seen a hologram before and even Pinion wouldn't really question a hologram of Chamber talking to him. However, Red knows better about how an officer would speak to another officer. He would expect to talk to Kugel, not Striker.

Striker needs Chamber for something. She would be sure to get Red's cooperation.

[Unknown Soldier]

This sure got dumb in a hurry.

They only have 2 episodes left to resolve this, good luck guys.

[Cadallin]

I'm in the group that says Kugel is dead, and Striker is running the show, and generally more convinced the Galactic Alliance is a laws of robots dystopia. I'd say humans haven't been involved in running things there for a long time. I would guess that the AIs really do just have a laws of robotics type ultimatum to keep humans around.

And why wouldn't they? They're running everything.

And its a pretty horribly shame this isn't 24-26 episodes, there's plenty of stuff to explore here.

[Triple_R]

I think that the religion/science discussion, while somewhat interesting, is a bit beside the point here.

The key is that the GA is based on a particular governmental ideology (survival of the fittest, people are rewarded or cast aside depending on their value to the collective, said value itself being rooted in the war effort against the Hideauze).

This ideology can be framed in scientific terms or in religious terms. But the framing is just superficial, and is chosen based upon what the people are likely to be most responsive to. The key is that the core ideology is the same in either case, which I think is clear from all the scenes in this episode that Pinion was in. Kugel and/or Striker are aiming to create a mini-GU here, and are aiming for a religious framing rather than a scientific one probably because they view these people as simply not knowledgeable enough (about things like genetics, say) to grasp the scientific framing.

[LystAP]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I think that the religion/science discussion, while somewhat interesting, is a bit beside the point here.

The key is that the GA is based on a particular governmental ideology (survival of the fittest, people are rewarded or cast aside depending on their value to the collective, said value itself being rooted in the war effort against the Hideauze).

This ideology can be framed in scientific terms or in religious terms. But the framing is just superficial, and is chosen based upon what the people are likely to be most responsive to. The key is that the core ideology is the same in either case, which I think is clear from all the scenes in this episode that Pinion was in. Kugel and/or Striker are aiming to create a mini-GU here, and are aiming for a religious framing rather than a scientific one probably because they view these people as simply not knowledgeable enough (about things like genetics, say) to grasp the scientific framing.

Agreed, and I apologize for taking it a little out of topic. I just have a habit of responding to extreme statements, especially when it come to a topic as complex as that of the relationship between science and religion; which I also apologize if my initial statement was in anyway extreme as well, I thought I was just expressing an opinion.

I still believe it's really Kugel in Striker, and not Striker going out on its' own. Commander Kugel is just carrying out what he has dedicated the majority of his life and career too (if you recall, Kugel thought he was old enough that he was willing to sacrifice himself for Ledo, since Ledo was younger and could kill more Hidueaze than he could). For him to forsake that life, may as well invalidate much of his existence, something potentially a lot more psychologically damaging than if someone as young as Ledo chose too. It's like laying off a old steelworker (or any old worker that spent decades in a specific occupation or field), and expecting him to do just as well as someone younger than him.

[Funkatron]

I have a feeling Kugel and/or Striker have nothing to do with the religious framing. We already know that among the fleet some worship/revere the whalesquid at a near deity level. I think that after seeing Kugel/Striker fall from the sky and/or in action they took them in as a savior/messiah figure, relegating them to their new gods. Kugel/Striker just never dissuaded the worship because it was easier to control them that way

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Funkatron

We already know that among the fleet some worship/revere the whalesquid at a near deity level.

The alleged whalesquid worship keeps popping up, but where does it come from? Unless I missed something there isn't anything that suggests any of the gargantians worship whalesquids rather than simply thinking that killing them brings bad luck.

Originally Posted by Funkatron

I think that after seeing Kugel/Striker fall from the sky and/or in action they took them in as a savior/messiah figure, relegating them to their new gods. Kugel/Striker just never dissuaded the worship because it was easier to control them that way

The cultist aspect in this fleet is so widespread and heavily affecting the life of its members that the mere fact that Kugel/Striker do not do anything to remove it is an implied approval to its enforcement.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by LystAP

Agreed, and I apologize for taking it a little out of topic. I just have a habit of responding to extreme statements, especially when it come to a topic as complex as that of the relationship between science and religion; which I also apologize if my initial statement was in anyway extreme as well, I thought I was just expressing an opinion.

Your opinion was fine. Actually, I thought it was pretty eloquent and nicely nuanced.

However, I think that we shouldn't lose sight of the core ideology driving what's going on here. This is a harsh, arguably dehumanizing order that now garbs itself in religion instead of in science, but the core ideological issues remain the same. This is about the ways of the GU trying to impose themselves on the Earth of Gargantia. Will Ledo go along with that, or will he fight back to preserve the lifestyle and ways of his new Gargantian friends?

I still believe it's really Kugel in Striker, and not Striker going out on its' own. Commander Kugel is just carrying out what he has dedicated the majority of his life and career too (if you recall, Kugel thought he was old enough that he was willing to sacrifice himself for Ledo, since Ledo was younger and could kill more Hidueaze than he could). For him to forsake that life, may as well invalidate much of his existence, something potentially a lot more psychologically damaging than if someone as young as Ledo chose too. It's like laying off a old steelworker (or any old worker that spent decades in a specific occupation or field), and expecting him to do just as well as someone younger than him.

You could be right. In some ways, I'd rather this be the real Kugel since that would add a bit more "Oomph!" to the pathos of Ledo breaking free from his GU "parentage" to become his own adult man by freely choosing the ways of the Gargantians.

OTOH, holograms everywhere is mighty suspicious, and Kugel being dead would "free up" Chamber in ways that him being alive might not. If Kugel is dead, then Ensign Ledo is the highest-ranking human here, and Chamber may hold that this makes Ledo's directives more important than Striker's.

Originally Posted by Funkatron

I have a feeling Kugel and/or Striker have nothing to do with the religious framing. We already know that among the fleet some worship/revere the whalesquid at a near deity level. I think that after seeing Kugel/Striker fall from the sky and/or in action they took them in as a savior/messiah figure, relegating them to their new gods. Kugel/Striker just never dissuaded the worship because it was easier to control them that way

You could be right. It might have been a choice of immediate convenience rather than anything carefully plotted out.

[LystAP]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

You could be right. In some ways, I'd rather this be the real Kugel since that would add a bit more "Oomph!" to the pathos of Ledo breaking free from his GU "parentage" to become his own adult man by freely choosing the ways of the Gargantians.

.

It being Kugel would also fit in with the whole "growing up and going into society" theme Urobuchi wanted for Gargantia if I recall. Kugel may as well be the father-figure in Ledo's life going by their relationship in the first episode and Ledo's responses in this episode. Although in this case, he's "rebelling" against what his "father and family" (Kugel and the Galactic Alliance) want him to do with his life; something a lot of us can associate with. Although most of us do it with a lot less blood than what Urobuchi may be planning.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by LystAP

It being Kugel would also fit in with the whole "growing up and going into society" theme Urobuchi wanted for Gargantia if I recall. Kugel may as well be the father-figure in Ledo's life going by their relationship in the first episode and Ledo's responses in this episode. Although in this case, he's "rebelling" against what his "father and family" (Kugel and the Galactic Alliance) want him to do with his life; something a lot of us can associate with. Although most of us do it with a lot less blood than what Urobuchi may be planning.

Agreed.

Fighting against a human father-figure carries a bit more emotional weight/resonance, I think, then fighting against a machine. So yeah, I hope this is the real Kugel.

But even if it's not, I think we have a decent setup for a good climax.


Gargantia has certainly had a lot of twists and turns and unusual genre mixes throughout, but as a total narrative, it's coming across as increasingly solid to me.

[Irenesharda]

Originally Posted by LystAP

Agreed, and I apologize for taking it a little out of topic. I just have a habit of responding to extreme statements, especially when it come to a topic as complex as that of the relationship between science and religion; which I also apologize if my initial statement was in anyway extreme as well, I thought I was just expressing an opinion.

I still believe it's really Kugel in Striker, and not Striker going out on its' own. Commander Kugel is just carrying out what he has dedicated the majority of his life and career too (if you recall, Kugel thought he was old enough that he was willing to sacrifice himself for Ledo, since Ledo was younger and could kill more Hidueaze than he could). For him to forsake that life, may as well invalidate much of his existence, something potentially a lot more psychologically damaging than if someone as young as Ledo chose too. It's like laying off a old steelworker (or any old worker that spent decades in a specific occupation or field), and expecting him to do just as well as someone younger than him.

I guess it's possible, but actually the way I saw Kugel in episode 1 actually reinforced my suspicions that something strange is going on. Kugel was willing to go against GA protocol, he put the survival of others ahead of the rules. He was willing to die to protect others, which wouldn't actually go with the GA's rhetoric of leaving the weak to die.

Yet, now he's pretty much a public icon and example of the Alliance's rules, and law and order? Something just doesn't mesh for me.

I think this will be a challenge to not only Red, but to Chamber as well, as he will have to decide whether to go with Striker's logic or not. However, I truly think that if it came down to it, Chamber would side with Red. His main objective has been to care for and protect his pilot, and I think he would continue to do that even if it led to his own destruction.

[monir]

Originally Posted by Unknown Soldier

This sure got dumb in a hurry.

They only have 2 episodes left to resolve this, good luck guys.

After watching this episode, I'm convinced two episodes are one too many to resolve this. The end card is pretty much a battle between Programmed Ledo VS. Enlightened Ledo. He either goes along with Striker's plan thanks to his programming, or he overrides his programming (likely scenario) and he doesn't. And if he doesn't he still needs to convince Chamber to go against Striker.

[playmaker2k]

I have a feeling that Kugel is dead and Striker created this cult.

Last episode, Chamber made a comment about being obsolete if there's wasn't any hideuze left.

I wonder if that also meant if their own pilot died in action especially in an unknown planet where the A.I. is left alone to constantly update its surroundings for self-preservation or should I say for the sake of its existence.

Being obsolete for an A.I. is the equivalent of a slow and painful death.

The most telling part is when Striker was the one talking to Pinion instead of Kugel himself.

When negotiating with another "ranking" personnel like Pinion, Kugel should be the one convincing him and not his A.I.

What I think happen is, Kugel died and his rotting corpse is contaminating the machine calibur, Striker.

That probably explains the endemic disease which I think is just rigor mortis.

Striker deceived them in order to maintain the GA proctol for its own purpose in order to stay relevant.

[ReddyRedWolf]

I like to think Chamber being participant of Gargantia's labor force finds their system more efficient than what either Kugel or Striker are imposing on their fleet.

Plus if it is Striker Chamber may find it a malfunctioning piece of equipment trying to trick him and Ledo as well as enslaving the human race. As it goes against his prime directive to serve man.

[Principalities]

Does anyone think there could be a fundamental difference in AIs Chamber and Striker? Chamber has always described itself as a pilot support system which could be due to Ledo's young age and therefore assigned a 'guiding/parental' type AI. Striker on the other hand belongs to a commanding officer and is more likely the absolute cold military type.

[Irenesharda]

Originally Posted by playmaker2k

I have a feeling that Kugel is dead and Striker created this cult.

Last episode, Chamber made a comment about being obsolete if there's wasn't any hideuze left.

I wonder if that also meant if their own pilot died in action especially in an unknown planet where the A.I. is left alone to constantly update its surroundings for self-preservation or should I say for the sake of its existence.

Being obsolete for an A.I. is the equivalent of a slow and painful death.

The most telling part is when Striker was the one talking to Pinion instead of Kugel himself.

When negotiating with another "ranking" personnel like Pinion, Kugel should be the one convincing him and not his A.I.

What I think happen is, Kugel died and his rotting corpse is contaminating the machine calibur, Striker.

That probably explains the endemic disease which I think is just rigor mortis.

Striker deceived them in order to maintain the GA proctol for its own purpose in order to stay relevant.

I thought of that. It would be interesting in that the overall plot seems to be about the pros and cons that come from the advancement of humans and what they are able to do. I would then think it apropos that they have to now fight against what was considered the pinnacle of human technology advancement. That's another reason I'm leaning toward the final villain being Striker.

However, this show would still keep with it's ambiguous morals as just as their are good and bad factors to the GA, Striker would present one extreme of technology and advancement getting out of control, while Chamber represents the other side.

[monir]

Originally Posted by Principalities

Does anyone think there could be a fundamental difference in AIs Chamber and Striker? Chamber has always described itself as a pilot support system which could be due to Ledo's young age and therefore assigned a 'guiding/parental' type AI. Striker on the other hand belongs to a commanding officer and is more likely the absolute cold military type.

That's an interesting question!

Whatever difference these to AI might have in the aesthetic and formalities, their logical input for self-preservation should be about the same as clearly outlined by Chamber in the last episode. The only difference between Striker and Chamber might be Striker's making decision all by itself (providing the pilot is long dead) while Chamber still gets a human (Ledo) input. For example, Ledo's insistence was what got Chamber to declassify those information revealing the common ancestor between GA and Hideauze.

Of course, there is also a possibility that Striker is still carrying out a human will, living or dead, as it is moving through these plans.

[BoyTitan]

Hmm while cliche this is still some what good these last few eps have been better.

While the whale quid in space are a absolute evil,the Galactic army has became evil with power of years of combat a necessary evil when facing a stronger enemy but when such a situation ceases to exist they are nothing more than evil from power . If either side expands it would be trouble for all life including earth if it is ever found.

Ledo's commander is essentially what would happen to him if he went by the empires ways and forced everyone under his command the strong do as they please but also serve em while the weak are forced to serve em. The weakest getting well terminated we can see how in the latter ep with um the sick kid whos name I forget this will create a problem as Ledo's commander will probably want people like him dead.

In the end I see Pinion,Ledo one of the ship captain living at the least and the humans left on earth striking a balance between having a military&civilization they will need to use pinion to advance the technology and raise their standard of living but also develop weapons they might even strike peace with the whale squid coexisting and helping each other advance its the only way I can see that when either the whale squid from space or galactic alliance find earth in the future that they are strong enough to stop them.

[FlareKnight]

I think it'd be fine either way. Both struggling against a superior that Ledo has respected is a good conflict, but also fighting against an AI that is pushing forward this view of what is best for humanity. Both conflicts have some interesting aspects to them and could make for a good final showdown.

Though I can't wait for the explanation as to why they are targeting Gargantia. It's a pretty good sized fleet which I suppose would make it worth adding to the Borg collective here . But just seems rather coincidental for just that reason. Maybe also because Striker/Kugel knows that is where Ledo has spent a lot of his time and wants to stamp out any doubts in his mind while still having that strong authority over him?

Originally Posted by BoyTitan

Hmm while cliche this is still some what good these last few eps have been better.

While the whale quid in space are a absolute evil,the Galactic army has became evil with power of years of combat a necessary evil when facing a stronger enemy but when such a situation ceases to exist they are nothing more than evil from power . If either side expands it would be trouble for all life including earth if it is ever found.

Ledo's commander is essentially what would happen to him if he went by the empires ways and forced everyone under his command the strong do as they please but also serve em while the weak are forced to serve em. The weakest getting well terminated we can see how in the latter ep with um the sick kid whos name I forget this will create a problem as Ledo's commander will probably want people like him dead.

In the end I see Pinion,Ledo one of the ship captain living at the least and the humans left on earth striking a balance between having a military&civilization they will need to use pinion to advance the technology and raise their standard of living but also develop weapons they might even strike peace with the whale squid coexisting and helping each other advance its the only way I can see that when either the whale squid from space or galactic alliance find earth in the future that they are strong enough to stop them.

While I'm not sure about the GA having become evil, I do agree that a moderate approach is probably how the people on Earth should move forward. Maybe hold off on annihilating all Hideauze in the Ocean until they pose a direct threat while making use of the tech they have gained. Think Strikers suggestion to Pinion is a good way to move forward. Learn how to use that technology and start developing your own stuff. Humanity has been spending too much time just dragging up its old stuff from the depths and not making nearly enough progress on their own. Looking to the past is helpful, but they do need to innovate for themselves or they are just too dependent on tech they just happened to find.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by FlareKnight

Though I can't wait for the explanation as to why they are targeting Gargantia.

Are they specifically targeting Gargantia? It could be, but at the start of the episode we were told that they were going to get close to the sea of mist by their own.

The explanation for them being chosen as the first target could be as simple as the fact that they happen to be the closest large fleet on the area.