[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[ALPHA-Beatrice]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

The Rokkenjima household has multiple sub-numbers. Natsuhi's bedroom can only be called from within the mansion.

Then at the very least, I'll drop all claims of any culprit and focus my attention on denying Black Battler. How could Battler, who was away from the Rokkenjima house know of Natushi's sub number? Or for that matter, any information pertaining to Natsuhi's life?

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

You are misapplying Knox. If Yasu is Shannon/Kanon (and she is), then she was properly foreshadowed several episodes ago purely by the fact that Shannon, Kanon, and Beatrice have been implied to be different facets of the same individual.

Not necessarily so, Kanon has always been antagonistic towards Beatrice. And even Shannon herself, after being betrayed by Beatrice in the 2nd game, felt no apathy for Beatrice whatsoever. Whatever implications came late, and generally were added on.

I mean, I understand Ryukishi was aiming for it.(The names Shannon and Kanon gave that out), but other than that the foreshadowing was poor and when you look at it really, Shannon and Kanon and Beatrice have absolutely nothing in common.

Beatrice herself called herself fickle. Is there anything remotely fickle about Shannon? Or Kanon for that matter? No. But I can present Rosa as being fickle.

At certain times, Rosa would act like a terrible monster towards Maria. While at the same time, Rosa would also be in Maria's eyes the world best mother.

Fickle? Quite .

Originally Posted by Auratwilight

Impossible. The Man on the Phone had information Natsuhi did not have awareness of, such as where things had been hidden in her room, the state of victim corpses before she knew about them, and specifically told her to hide in a room where Hideyoshi was then assaulted by someone who was not her because Natsuhi is innocent.

Unless Natsuhi is psychic, she was talking to someone on the phone.

I present a different theory based on Battler's theory that it's a conspiracy to frame Natsuhi. What if the "man from 19 years ago" was George, relaying information he got from Eva? The only one who can actually fit the age given, as well as be a male other than Battler(who it's confirmed in red goD knows how many times is not a culprit or an accomplice) is George.

I mean, we know George's pretty much a mother's boy(except when it comes to her refusal of Shannon of course) and we know Eva can be that vindictive and that low.

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Krauss would never choose ambition over his family. The heart of a person matters as much as, if not more so, than their actions in this genre of fiction. Display evidence that Krauss would sacrifice his family for money. Throughout all of his characterization, Krauss has always pursued money because of a wish to protect and support his family. He loved Natsuhi, and would not frame her for murder for financial security.

Krauss had no intention of framing Natsuhi, or really going along with any of the Culprit's "plans" in my theory, other than the death of the other adult siblings. I outlined earlier the only way he'd agree is if Natsuhi and Jessica were unharmed.

While Krauss did express regret about the way he treated the other siblings in the 3rd game, I suspect he thinks much more highly of his immediate family than siblings with which he really no longer has a relationship with(They're all adults now). For that same financial security and future that you spoke of, for his more immediate family he'd be capable of pulling this off.

Originally Posted by Auratwilight

This does not address the reds regarding people's alibis.

The statement itself doesn't refer to nor is concerned about alibis. Renall-san asked me about Hideyoshi's attacker and I've responded on a plausible explanation as to how Hideyoshi might not have been able to recognize the culprit, and for there still to be only 17 people on the island.

There are only 17 people on Rokkenjima

If Yasu ever existed at all, he/she/it fell off a freaking cliff(at that, at an infant age). I'm sorry but my belief can't be suspended. I'll sooner believe that Zepar and Furfur exist on the island than Yasu's story.

If Yasu survived, she should've suffered extensive brain damage or something!

Originally Posted by Auratwilight

Knox's 10th still applies, according to how it is meant to be interpreted. Whether the disguise is of another person isn't relevant.

The very ruling specifically says the foreshadowing of a disguise Into another character. needed to be present.

If, however a character is disguising himself to shroud his identity, how can we possibly foreshadow that? My type of disguise should theoretically bypass Knox's 10th.

Originally Posted by Auratwilight

"Yasu" as a character is defined as the true identity of Shannon, Kanon, and Beatrice as a composite character. You cannot pick and choose parts of Yasu's backround to follow; she cannot be Rosa.

By disproving the notion that Shannon, Kanon and Beatrice are even remotely alike, I've also disproven the Yasu=Shannon or Kanon theory in of itself. (Well, it's said that Yasu is a figment of Shannon's imagination. So I guess that works).

But keep Kanon out of it, that's about as likely as a shooting star being responsible for the deaths of Rokkenjima.

Kanon only has one identity(as proven at the end of the Fourth game).

Originally Posted by Auratwilight

Uh...one of them is her daughter, lol.

Both in the first game and in the fourth game Maria was invited to the Golden Land.(IE one of the few survivors) And her "deaths" are unusually humane for the Umineko series. Her worst death was the 3rd game, being strangled to death.

Originally Posted by Auratwilight

For what it's worth, the PS3 version has the man on the phone voiced by Daisuke Ono, Battler's VA among others.

Whether it's defensive, incompetent or whatever you might want to view it as, I've pronounced a theory above about who the man from 19 years ago might be.

Originally Posted by Auratwilight

The red acknowledges Erika as a separate individual on the gameboard with their own body, actions, and existence.

I present a couple of red truths which contradict this:

-Furudo Erika had no influence on any of Beato's games before now.
-She does not exist in the worlds before this one, nor does she influence them.



Furudo Erika doesn't exist, she isn't Michael Phelps, she died ashore in 1986. And her existence in the games is merely as Bernkastel's piece, or alternatively from a RL perspective, as an interpretation of Eva's specific malice towards Natsuhi.


Erika believed that she had free will over her body and actions but that doesn't mean it was an actual fact. Artificial life, by it's very nature cannot comprehend the complexities of life. Such as Erika not being able to feel love.

Originally Posted by Auratwilight

[COLOR="Red"]There are multiple characters that have things to gain from a fake murder game. There is evidence throughout the episodes that it can be construed as such. THE FIRST FIVE VICTIMS ARE EXPLICITLY PROVED TO HAVE BEEN FAKING IT IN EP6 UNTIL ERIKA MURDERED THEM.

And they are? Because it's fake, it'll eventually be found out. And whatever gains would've come completely unraveled.

Originally Posted by Auratwilight

YOU ARE INCOMPETENT. *CACKLE**CACKLE**COUGH**CACKLE**CACKLE*AHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA**CACKLE!*

I won't take offense to that. It's your belief after all, and I can't say given my recent opposition from you, Renall and my bout with Grey that I'm doing a good job presenting a true theoretical argument worth enjoying.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by haguruma

If Krauss jumped of a cliff he would still "have jumped and died" 飛び降りて死んだ or "have committed suicide" 自殺した. The cause of death in 殺された is vague, but there is still the implication of a second party doing the killing.

Fair enough. But it doesn't necessarily imply murder/homicide, correct? It's a vague description in an otherwise precise sentence; we know he died, and we know exactly when he died, but exactly what happened to him is something we don't know (and will never know, as the game suspends before anyone finds his body). All we know is there's an implication that someone else may have been responsible, but the red is noncommittal otherwise.

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by Renall

Fair enough. But it doesn't necessarily imply murder/homicide, correct?

It does not necessarily have to be homicide in the sense of an intentional killing, yes. It could also be manslaughter or unintentional manslaughter. Maybe Krauss was about to reveal the conspiracy to Natsuhi and get her to cover up for him and when they tried to silence him they accidentaly killed him. Even the manga (when his corpse is shown during the trial) makes it appear as if he had been strangled or otherwise killed in a very low-key manner.

Originally Posted by ALPHA-Beatrice

If Yasu ever existed at all, he/she/it fell off a freaking cliff(at that, at an infant age). I'm sorry but my belief can't be suspended. I'll sooner believe that Zepar and Furfur exist on the island than Yasu's story.

It is nice when reality validates fiction.

Kanon only has one identity(as proven at the end of the Fourth game).

No, the Red Truth is again used wrong by you. It is 嘉音の名を名乗ることが出来るのは本人のみ！　異なる人間が名乗ることは出来ない！ (Only the person themself is able to designate themself with the name Kanon! A different human could not wield that name!)

This is the biggest problem with you, you make up your own truth, which makes it frustrating to argue with you.

[GreyZone]

@α-B.
This is becoming boring... you simply write anything that comes into your mind and hope it will somehow not be shot down, instead of focusing on 2-3 HQ arguments that you are sure cannot be denied. So, how about going for Quality over Quantity once in a while, hm?


I won't even begin to address the appearance of the people... You are seriously basing your theory on a bunch of pixels? Battler's and Ange's red hair must be an indication that they are demons! Half-brother and half-sister are the real culprits!
Anyway... you said that 17 people exist on Rokkenjima. That is not completely correct. That red truth only applies to EP6 and it INCLUDES Erika. For EP1-4 the rule "No more than 17 humans exist on Rokkenjima" applies and for EP5 it is:

"Furudo Erika only increases it by one person. Besides her, the number of people on this island is exactly the same as it was in the previous games."

You said that Kanon only has one identity. That was never said. I am sure you are referring to Lambda's red truth from the EP4 ???-TP. That red truth is worded like this:

"The only one who can claim Kanon's name is the person himself! A different person cannot claim his name! "
and in EP6 there is actually an even stricter rule introduced:

"All people can only use their own names!!"

So then what is the flaw of your argument? I can tell you that: All the red truth states, is that a name is always bound to EXACTLY one person. You however claim, without any basis, that people are bound to their one name, which is not true.

I even had made an example using mathematics in the EP6 thread:

Originally Posted by GreyZone

In EP6 an even stricter rule was introduced:

(...)All people can only use their own names. However because of the case with Kinzo, it seems that unique "titles" of people can be given to other people.

But regardless of that, let us try a different approach, using substitues from mathematics for People and Names:

function f(x) = Person
variable x = Name

There is a certain rule in math:
A function f(x) can have any amount of corresponding variables x from 0 to infinity, however every variable x in the domain, must belong to exactly one function f(x).

Sorry for bothering with that math comparison...

In other words:
One person can have an unlimited amount of names, but a name always belongs to one specific person. "Titles", like "head of the family", are excluded from that.

Kanon is able to have other names beside "Kanon" and "Yoshiya".



And about "Yasu never appeard":
"Yasu" is Beato's "old" name that she doesn't use anymore. Her present name is "Beatrice". She does appear as a character from early on. For one she does so in the disguise of Shannon and Kanon, secondly she is being mentioned in a lot of discussions (e.g. as the 2nd master of the mansion), and there is a portrait in the entrance hall. But even if you disregard that: Beatrice does appear early on before Maria and gives her the letter. That was done by an actual character. Of course you can claim that "Maria's statement is unrealiable because Detective Battler didn't see it himself". That is no problem though, as Maria's statement gets confirmed at the end of the first game, as Battler sees someone next to Maria at 23:59, that looks like Beatrice.

[AuraTwilight]

Then at the very least, I'll drop all claims of any culprit and focus my attention on denying Black Battler. How could Battler, who was away from the Rokkenjima house know of Natushi's sub number? Or for that matter, any information pertaining to Natsuhi's life?

He was informed by one of the other conspirators he's working in tandem with, and is effectively voice-acting a script; Natsuhi would know Battler's voice the least out of all of them.

Not necessarily so, Kanon has always been antagonistic towards Beatrice. And even Shannon herself, after being betrayed by Beatrice in the 2nd game, felt no apathy for Beatrice whatsoever. Whatever implications came late, and generally were added on.

Because no one has ever been conflicted about their actions, right?

The Love Duel, and all other conflicts between Shannon, Kanon, and Beatrice, symbolize Yasu's indecision when it comes to important choices. This reflects Beato's magic style, where she doesn't care how the dice rolls because she'll be satisfied with any outcome.

Shannon and Kanon and Beatrice have absolutely nothing in common.

Objectively false. All three have a furniture complex. All three retain memories across Gameboards in the fantasy narrative; all three have issues with feeling incapable of satisfying their love or wishes. All three of them associate themselves with having been to/will go to the Golden Land. All three of them support the existence of 'Beatrice'. Beatrice was only visible to Shannon and Kanon before the breaking of the mirror on the shrine. All three of them claim Love is the single element of the world. All three of them are set up in such a way that if either of them gains love, the other two must disappear. All three of them are said to have one part of the same soul, and that the completion of the Love Duel will cause the winner to gain the other two parts and become whole.

Beatrice herself called herself fickle. Is there anything remotely fickle about Shannon? Or Kanon for that matter? No. But I can present Rosa as being fickle.

At certain times, Rosa would act like a terrible monster towards Maria. While at the same time, Rosa would also be in Maria's eyes the world best mother.

Fickle? Quite

That's not what fickle means, and Beatrice is never abusive to Maria. Furthermore, uh, duuur, people with different identities can have different behavior.

I present a different theory based on Battler's theory that it's a conspiracy to frame Natsuhi. What if the "man from 19 years ago" was George, relaying information he got from Eva? The only one who can actually fit the age given, as well as be a male other than Battler(who it's confirmed in red goD knows how many times is not a culprit or an accomplice) is George.

I mean, we know George's pretty much a mother's boy(except when it comes to her refusal of Shannon of course) and we know Eva can be that vindictive and that low.

George is too old, lol. He's like 23, dude. Also, Natsuhi would know his voice well. Furthermore, Battler can be the man on the phone despite those reds, because the man on the phone isn't necessarily a murderer.

Deny it in red! The Man on the Phone never dirties his hands with murder! Unless you can deny that statement, you have no ability to deny it was Battler!

There are only 17 people on Rokkenjima

If Yasu ever existed at all, he/she/it fell off a freaking cliff(at that, at an infant age). I'm sorry but my belief can't be suspended. I'll sooner believe that Zepar and Furfur exist on the island than Yasu's story.

If Yasu survived, she should've suffered extensive brain damage or something!

Maybe she did. We know nothing about Yasu but she heavily implies she suffered some sort of deformity in the EP7 Tea Party. Furthermore, Even if [Erika] joins us, there are only 17 humans.

This means that Erika, who increases the human count by one, brings the total to 17, remove her and there are 16 humans.

The very ruling specifically says the foreshadowing of a disguise Into another character. needed to be present.

If, however a character is disguising himself to shroud his identity, how can we possibly foreshadow that? My type of disguise should theoretically bypass Knox's 10th.

The text says 'another person', not 'another character'. The Beatrice disguise and anything similar thus satisfies Knox.

By disproving the notion that Shannon, Kanon and Beatrice are even remotely alike, I've also disproven the Yasu=Shannon or Kanon theory in of itself. (Well, it's said that Yasu is a figment of Shannon's imagination. So I guess that works).

But keep Kanon out of it, that's about as likely as a shooting star being responsible for the deaths of Rokkenjima.

Kanon only has one identity(as proven at the end of the Fourth game).

You've proved nothing. You're also using the Red Wrong again.

Only Kanon can use his name. If Shannon and Kanon are the same person, then Shannon can use Kanon's name.

Also, If Shannon dies, Kanon disappears forever. You lose.

I present a couple of red truths which contradict this:

-Furudo Erika had no influence on any of Beato's games before now.
-She does not exist in the worlds before this one, nor does she influence them.



Furudo Erika doesn't exist, she isn't Michael Phelps, she died ashore in 1986. And her existence in the games is merely as Bernkastel's piece, or alternatively from a RL perspective, as an interpretation of Eva's specific malice towards Natsuhi.


Erika believed that she had free will over her body and actions but that doesn't mean it was an actual fact. Artificial life, by it's very nature cannot comprehend the complexities of life. Such as Erika not being able to feel love.

Erika Furudo increases the count of the people on the island by one. Therefore she has a body. Erika demonstrates that Gameboards are allowed to have distinct starting conditions from each other, such as in EP8 where we are presented with a gameboard where Ange is able to attend the conference. Your arguments are logically unsound.

And they are? Because it's fake, it'll eventually be found out. And whatever gains would've come completely unraveled.

You are moving the goalposts and are being intellectually dishonest. The fact that faked deaths have been demonstrated as true means that a Fake Murder game is entirely possible and, like Erika, someone can kill the fakers for real for their own purposes.

[ALPHA-Beatrice]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

He was informed by one of the other conspirators he's working in tandem with, and is effectively voice-acting a script; Natsuhi would know Battler's voice the least out of all of them.

What gain would Battler possibly get out of it? Is 'Yasu' the conspirator he's working in tandem with? Why would Shannon and Kanon betray the very household that's employing them?

Isn't it easier to simply employ an Eva-George "culprit" theory for the man for 19 years ago? In the game, Lambadelta-sama is seen on the other line. Isn't it possible to fake or alter one's voice slightly to sound different?

Originally Posted by Auratwilight

Because no one has ever been conflicted about their actions, right?

The Love Duel, and all other conflicts between Shannon, Kanon, and Beatrice, symbolize Yasu's indecision when it comes to important choices. This reflects Beato's magic style, where she doesn't care how the dice rolls because she'll be satisfied with any outcome.

So let me see if I get this straight: Assuming Yasu is unisex, are you using the 'existences' of Shannon, Kanon and Beatrice and their respective conflicts to reflect that Yasu, as a single entity is unable to choose between one of Battler, Jessica or George?

While Kanon wants to 'feel love', he utterly rejects the concept in all games. Acknowledging his role as furniture. This is different from Shannon, who openly pursues her relationship with George and Beatrice who begrudgingly comes to accept Battler on a platonic level.

Yasu doesn't suffer from "multiple personality disorder" and any sane person would have eventually chosen a person to fall in love with.


If you believe in Yasu, he/she/it is a single entity!

There's only one reason the love battle exists, and that's because at the end of the day you can only choose one person.


If multiple existences or personalities were true, then theoretically the battle is unnecessary. 'Shannon' can be with George, 'Kanon' can be with Jessica and Beatrice can be with Battler.

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Objectively false. All three have a furniture complex. All three retain memories across Gameboards in the fantasy narrative; all three have issues with feeling incapable of satisfying their love or wishes. All three of them associate themselves with having been to/will go to the Golden Land. All three of them support the existence of 'Beatrice'. Beatrice was only visible to Shannon and Kanon before the breaking of the mirror on the shrine. All three of them claim Love is the single element of the world. All three of them are set up in such a way that if either of them gains love, the other two must disappear. All three of them are said to have one part of the same soul, and that the completion of the Love Duel will cause the winner to gain the other two parts and become whole.

Objectively? You're using the meta-world as a primary example. Far from objective. But even supposing we did use it, Beatrice doesn't have a furniture complex." In the episodes, she especially looked down on the furniture and even stated that resistance from one was like crushing your toe on a drawer.

By comparison, we know that Rosa herself has never actually experienced love. Having been abandoned by Maria's father, and subconsciously pushing away any male that did like her. We see Beatrice's plain disgust for men when she tells Shannon that George will eventually lust after her.

And Kanon himself never expressed that Love was the Single Element. Beatrice first proclaimed that, and Shannon swallowed it up(like any young girl her age would). The fact that Beatrice needed to explain that, proves that Beatrice is either a different person or a different consciousness but at the very least, neither are the same person.

In fact, Shannon later regrets breaking the mirror and releasing Beatrice because it began the games which led to the killings. Instead of the happy days between the cousins.. I'm sure you'll explain that conflict as a part of Yasu's multiple personality disorder, oh well.

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

That's not what fickle means, and Beatrice is never abusive to Maria. Furthermore, uh, duuur, people with different identities can have different behavior.

Fickle:Characterized by erratic changeableness or instability, especially with regard to affections or attachments; capricious.

So, it's Precisely what it means! Of course Beatrice is never abusive towards Maria, that's the whole point. She's the alternative personality of Rosa, whose Maria's mother.

If Shannon/Kanon=Yasu whose Beatrice, then why couldn't Kanon simply give Maria a new bar of candy? Kanon bemoaned the fact that all he could do was brush it off. Shannon was demonstrably with the other cousins in the guesthouse!

Originally Posted by Auratwilight

George is too old, lol. He's like 23, dude. Also, Natsuhi would know his voice well. Furthermore, Battler can be the man on the phone despite those reds, because the man on the phone isn't necessarily a murderer.

Deny it in red! The Man on the Phone never dirties his hands with murder! Unless you can deny that statement, you have no ability to deny it was Battler!

Supposing I were to accept Yasu's existence, I can deny it in red. Yasu is Beatrice correct? And Beatrice, as the Golden Witch confessed to the murders(wanting to be acknowledged as a true witch)

So now, in order to trap me with this blue, you're going to have to deny at the least that Yasu(Beatrice) wasn't the one on the phone. But there's more.

To have the kind of information that the man of 19 years ago had, he would have to had been intimate with the family, to have knowledge of it. Yasu was kept in secret by Genji and Kuwasawa. You can argue that they filled in the blanks, but doubtful. And I'm sorry, Battler was away for 6 freaking years!(Six).

My Eva-George theory for the man for 19 years ago, makes much more plausible sense than Yasu/Battler and entirely fits your blue. All the moreso if George in fact is a culprit!

Originally Posted by Auratwilight

Maybe she did. We know nothing about Yasu but she heavily implies she suffered some sort of deformity in the EP7 Tea Party. Furthermore, Even if [Erika] joins us, there are only 17 humans.

This means that Erika, who increases the human count by one, brings the total to 17, remove her and there are 16 humans.

She only increases the human count by 1 in the Meta-World! Not Rokkenjima Prime. She's neither a culprit or a detective, she's non existent! For god sakes, separate yourselves from the game! A 9-year old girl survives the Rokkenjima version of the Titanic and happens to wash ashore some island that coincidentally harbors a family?

Originally Posted by Golden Sorcerer Battler

Even if you join us, there's still only 17 people

It's a clear statement, Erika doesn't exist. Kinzo doesn't exist. Santa Claus doesn't exist. The Easter Bunny doesn't exist. The only ones at the Ushiromiya's during the Family Conference are all relatives except for Kinzo(who doesn't exist) and the servants.

Originally Posted by Auratwilight

The text says 'another person', not 'another character'. The Beatrice disguise and anything similar thus satisfies Knox.

Fair enough, it was only a hypothetical example showing that the one who attacked Hideyoshi could've easily been someone on the island but had somehow fooled Hideyoshi into believing or seeing otherwise.

Originally Posted by Auratwilight

You've proved nothing. You're also using the Red Wrong again.

Only Kanon can use his name. If Shannon and Kanon are the same person, then Shannon can use Kanon's name.

Also, If Shannon dies, Kanon disappears forever. You lose.

"The identities of all unidentified corpses are guaranteed"

So in other words, when Kanon was pronounced dead in the 3rd game we can be absolutely sure it was Kanon!

Lady Lambda-sama said with absolute certainty that no one can take Kanon's identity.



I already expressed my doubts about Kanon being Shannon, but let's flip it the other way around: How the hell are you going to make Shannon Kanon? Better yet: Whom among the males could remotely disguise themselves as Kanon?

You could argue "breast reconstruction surgery." Except Nanjo is a physician, not necessarily a surgeon.

That and I doubt they'd have the tools

And as far as the other guys? None of them are as short in stature, or anywhere close to Kanon's personality. If there's anyone in the Umineko series you can't be deceived with, it's Kanon.

Kanon is as much of a personified figure as Kinzo himself

Originally Posted by Auratwilight

Erika Furudo increases the count of the people on the island by one. Therefore she has a body. Erika demonstrates that Gameboards are allowed to have distinct starting conditions from each other, such as in EP8 where we are presented with a gameboard where Ange is able to attend the conference. Your arguments are logically unsound.

If the game boards can be distinct from each other that means the game boards aren't real. It means Furudo Erika isn't real, it means you cannot place her on the "game board" of Rokkenjima Prime. It means just as the murders were fake, the entire 5th game was fake!

My arguments are logically consistent with the truth They're just not the arguments you want to hear.

Originally Posted by Auratwilight

You are moving the goalposts and are being intellectually dishonest. The fact that faked deaths have been demonstrated as true means that a Fake Murder game is entirely possible and, like Erika, someone can kill the fakers for real for their own purposes.

I'm not the one claiming a baby fell off a cliff and survived relatively unscathed for the most part. Furthermore, being competent enough to elaborate some fake murder scheme or a murder plot for gold.

If I'm guilty of anything, it's surrendering my theories and postulating new ones to counter any weaknesses in my original thesis. If you want to call that moving the posts, I'm guilty as charged.

All I'm asking, is what's to gain from some fake murder game? Attention? That's a pretty sick way to get attention if you ask me.

[GreyZone]

Someone who is pretending to be dead is not a corpse

Originally Posted by ALPHA-Beatrice

If the game boards can be distinct from each other that means the game boards aren't real. It means Furudo Erika isn't real, it means you cannot place her on the "game board" of Rokkenjima Prime. It means just as the murders were fake, the entire 5th game was fake!

I couldn't stop laughting after reading this

Umineko is a work of fiction and the "gameboards" are fictions within fiction. Battler is "fake", Beatrice is "fake", Eva is "fake", Erika is "fake", Rokkenjima is "fake", everything is "fake"!

[ALPHA-Beatrice]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

Someone who is pretending to be dead is not a corpse

I don't see how this refutes my notion that Yasu doesn't exist, or that Shannon and Kanon being one and the same is as plausible as humanity defying the law of gravity.

But okay, I'll accept it. Just add a little bit more detail so I can understand why you use this particular red against me.

Originally Posted by Greyzone

I couldn't stop laughting after reading this

Originally Posted by Greyzone

Umineko is a work of fiction and the "gameboards" are fictions within fiction. Battler is "fake", Beatrice is "fake", Eva is "fake", Erika is "fake", Rokkenjima is "fake", everything is "fake"!

The terminology of fake, was only used in conjunction with the world of Rokkenjima. While obviously, the series itself is fake. We as viewers are able to view the world of Rokkenjima, unbiased and to see the reality of their world.

Just because I deny Furudo Erika existing in Prime(or as confirmed in red, that she didn't exist on any of the boards), doesn't necessarily mean I
reject the story itself or even want to. I'm a big Umineko fan.

I just want to find the truth, and only with love can I see it.I can feel Rosa's pain. The pain of not being acknowledged, the pain of being burdened with guilt for feeling responsible for Kuwadorian Beatrice's death. The pain of not even being able to love Maria, her own daughter.

I can see it, because I have love.

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by ALPHA-Beatrice

"The identities of all unidentified corpses are guaranteed"

So in other words, when Kanon was pronounced dead in the 3rd game we can be absolutely sure it was Kanon!

When was Kanon's corpse ever "unidentified" in EP3?

Also:
Someone who is pretending to be dead is not a corpse. Do you get it? Playing dead = being alive = NOT a(n unidentified) corpse.

Originally Posted by ALPHA-Beatrice

Lady Lambda-sama said with absolute certainty that no one can take Kanon's identity.

You are incompetent and your reding comprehension is questionable!

FOR THE 3RD TIME!

one body can have up to infinite amount of names, but one name belongs to EXACTLY one body.

After I already wrote it for 2 times, was it SO hard to understand? Does it not fit into your 50 byte memory?

I am losing interest in this "fight" because in the last days I destroyed most of your theories by simply repeating myself, which makes this really boring.


Maybe you are actually thinking you are a "troll" and just have fun at flame baiting. Or wait... are you.... a.... HIPSTER?

[AuraTwilight]

What gain would Battler possibly get out of it? Is 'Yasu' the conspirator he's working in tandem with? Why would Shannon and Kanon betray the very household that's employing them?

Isn't it easier to simply employ an Eva-George "culprit" theory for the man for 19 years ago? In the game, Lambadelta-sama is seen on the other line. Isn't it possible to fake or alter one's voice slightly to sound different?

'

Battler loves Yasu, and wants to help her. Yasu, wanting out of this situation (All three entities that are part of her express a desire to escape Rokkenjima) cannot leave with good conscience without dispelling all the lies and hurts of the family she's been a part of, such as covering up Kinzo's death. She's trying to motivate Natsuhi to come clean on her own instead of pushing her into the fire, so to speak.

As for the Lambdadelta comment, Lambdadelta = 34. Sayo can be read in Japanese characters as 34. Beatrice is supported by Lambdadelta...

So let me see if I get this straight: Assuming Yasu is unisex, are you using the 'existences' of Shannon, Kanon and Beatrice and their respective conflicts to reflect that Yasu, as a single entity is unable to choose between one of Battler, Jessica or George?

Precisely.

While Kanon wants to 'feel love', he utterly rejects the concept in all games. Acknowledging his role as furniture. This is different from Shannon, who openly pursues her relationship with George and Beatrice who begrudgingly comes to accept Battler on a platonic level.

Yasu doesn't suffer from "multiple personality disorder" and any sane person would have eventually chosen a person to fall in love with.

Kanon is a Tsundere :P Furthermore, Even if we accept that Yasu is sane as a premise, countless sane people find themselves struck with indecision when they have multiple people they can end up in love with. IT'S CALLED A LOVE TRIANGLE, THERE'S AN ENTIRE SUBGENRE OF ROMANCE FICTION ABOUT IT, IT HAPPENS IN REAL LIFE.

If multiple existences or personalities were true, then theoretically the battle is unnecessary. 'Shannon' can be with George, 'Kanon' can be with Jessica and Beatrice can be with Battler.

None of the three cousins feel like sharing Yasu; Yasu knows this andfeels like she needs to consolidate her identity into one person before the three of them find out she's been deceiving them.

Objectively? You're using the meta-world as a primary example. Far from objective. But even supposing we did use it, Beatrice doesn't have a furniture complex." In the episodes, she especially looked down on the furniture and even stated that resistance from one was like crushing your toe on a drawer.

Beatrice calls herself furniture in EP7, the episode closest to her heart. Shannon accuses Beatrice of projecting her own insecurities onto her in EP2, which gets Beato upset. The Black Witch concept symbolizes the idea of continuing abuse by pushing one's problems and insecurities onto others in order to feel better, and whether or not they're the same person, Beatrice demeaning Shannon over this issue and getting so personally upset about it indicates they're not so different.

By comparison, we know that Rosa herself has never actually experienced love. Having been abandoned by Maria's father, and subconsciously pushing away any male that did like her. We see Beatrice's plain disgust for men when she tells Shannon that George will eventually lust after her.

Your red statement is entirely invalid. There is no indication that Rosa is pushing away men; rather the opposite, that she's hanging onto men and abandoning her child in order to keep their interest. Furthermore, EP6 makes a big deal about how she still feels love for Maria's father despite his betrayal, and Kanon claims that her only release from it is death, which she does not deny.

And Kanon himself never expressed that Love was the Single Element. Beatrice first proclaimed that, and Shannon swallowed it up(like any young girl her age would). The fact that Beatrice needed to explain that, proves that Beatrice is either a different person or a different consciousness but at the very least, neither are the same person.

You seem to be under the impression that fantasy scenes actually occur, when they are infact allegories. What if Yasu is simply an in-depth roleplayer, as EP7 indicates her? A child who escapes her problems with elaborate games of pretend and imagination, where she imagines up friends, interacts with them when she's lonely and depressed, and essentially engages in escapism to make her small prison of Rokkenjima seem so much wider? PEOPLE ACTUALLY DO THIS IN REAL LIFE, I WAS ONE OF THEM. IT'S A PSYCHOLOGICAL COPING MECHANISM. Furthermore, Multiples cannot speak with or remember the actions of their other identities. These conversations the three of them have means they do not have Multiple Personalities. They may be deeply constructed identities and personas, but that is not the same thing.

In fact, Shannon later regrets breaking the mirror and releasing Beatrice because it began the games which led to the killings. Instead of the happy days between the cousins.. I'm sure you'll explain that conflict as a part of Yasu's multiple personality disorder, oh well.

Well, more indecision. Symbolically, Beatrice can represent the part of her that wants to do this, and Kanon is the part that tells her not to, similar to the Superego-Ego-Id trinity of Freudian psychology, or Beatrice is the Jungian Shadow archetype.

Fickle:Characterized by erratic changeableness or instability, especially with regard to affections or attachments; capricious.

So, it's Precisely what it means! Of course Beatrice is never abusive towards Maria, that's the whole point. She's the alternative personality of Rosa, whose Maria's mother.

Rosa is too patterned to be fickle. She has definite setoffs for switching between her modes, to the point that Maria can comment on the patterns. A fickle person is not consistent.

If Shannon/Kanon=Yasu whose Beatrice, then why couldn't Kanon simply give Maria a new bar of candy? Kanon bemoaned the fact that all he could do was brush it off. Shannon was demonstrably with the other cousins in the guesthouse!

Prove that's not EXACTLY what he did. My god, it's like you have no idea what a fantasy scene is. The narration is capable of lying to you. 'Kanon' can't fix Maria's problem, but 'Beatrice' is. So Yasu switches personas. EP7 points out that Maria doesn't recognize people by faces, but behavior, specifically pointing out to Will that a person doesn't need to look like Beatrice, just act like her!

Supposing I were to accept Yasu's existence, I can deny it in red. Yasu is Beatrice correct? And Beatrice, as the Golden Witch confessed to the murders(wanting to be acknowledged as a true witch)

People can confess to things they didn't do, dude.

To have the kind of information that the man of 19 years ago had, he would have to had been intimate with the family, to have knowledge of it. Yasu was kept in secret by Genji and Kuwasawa. You can argue that they filled in the blanks, but doubtful. And I'm sorry, Battler was away for 6 freaking years!(Six).

Have you even read EP7? Yasu knows everything about the family. She's lived on that island for ten years and can boss around Genji and Kumasawa and Nanjo to do whatever she wants behind the scenes, they acknowledge her as the true heir and master of Rokkenjima. THIS IS ALL EXPLICITLY SAID IN THE TEXT.

"The identities of all unidentified corpses are guaranteed"

So in other words, when Kanon was pronounced dead in the 3rd game we can be absolutely sure it was Kanon!

Lady Lambda-sama said with absolute certainty that no one can take Kanon's identity.

Wrong again. Lambdadelta only said that only Kanon can use Kanon's name; and only Kanon does so. If Kanon and Shannon are the same person, then Shannon can use Kanon's name because she is Kanon. Incidentally, "Battler Ushiromiya is dead" in EP8, even though he becomes Tohya Hachijou. Bernkastel immediately demonstrated here that death can be more psychological. If Yasu abandons the Kanon personality forever, for instance, he is dead, even though the body is still alive.

She only increases the human count by 1 in the Meta-World! Not Rokkenjima Prime. She's neither a culprit or a detective, she's non existent! For god sakes, separate yourselves from the game! A 9-year old girl survives the Rokkenjima version of the Titanic and happens to wash ashore some island that coincidentally harbors a family?

Alright, first of all, the Meta-World and the Gameboards are not the same thing. The Meta-World is the plane of existence where Battler argues with witches, the Gameboard is the narrative where people are murdered on the island. We never see Rokkenjima Prime, ever, in the entire novel, so your argument is invalid.

Also, Erika isn't nine, you dolt, she's two years younger than Jessica. That aside, her existence in Rokkenjima Prime is utterly irrelevant because in the Gameboard of End and Dawn, she exists for the narrative. The red says she has a body, is capable of killing people, doing things, and taping doors. She exists as much as any other character on those Gameboards are.

It's a clear statement, Erika doesn't exist. Kinzo doesn't exist. Santa Claus doesn't exist. The Easter Bunny doesn't exist. The only ones at the Ushiromiya's during the Family Conference are all relatives except for Kinzo(who doesn't exist) and the servants.

The Ushiromiyas don't exist either, you're reading a mystery novel. Spoilers, Umineko no Naku Koro ni is a metafictional novel, meaning you need to suspend your disbelief about the 4th wall and layers of metatextual reality, narrative, continuity, and plot structure in order to properly understand the message the author is trying to convey to you. This is not a story where there is 'real', or 'not-real'. It's a sliding spectrum with grey areas.

Also, You misquoted Battler's red. He never says the word 'still' in that line. This utterly changes the meaning of the line.

I already expressed my doubts about Kanon being Shannon, but let's flip it the other way around: How the hell are you going to make Shannon Kanon? Better yet: Whom among the males could remotely disguise themselves as Kanon?

I have never claimed that anyone ever does. No one ever takes Kanon's identity except Kanon himself.

And as far as the other guys? None of them are as short in stature, or anywhere close to Kanon's personality. If there's anyone in the Umineko series you can't be deceived with, it's Kanon.

Kanon is as much of a personified figure as Kinzo himself

Anyone gonna point out the hilarious irony here?

If the game boards can be distinct from each other that means the game boards aren't real. It means Furudo Erika isn't real, it means you cannot place her on the "game board" of Rokkenjima Prime. It means just as the murders were fake, the entire 5th game was fake!

My arguments are logically consistent with the truth They're just not the arguments you want to hear.

Rokkenjima Prime is not a gameboard. Do you even know what Rokkenjima Prime IS? We've never seen it. The gameboards are all narratives people are reading in 1998. EP6 directly shows this to us, and the trend continues until the end of EP8.

Your arguments aren't even logically consistent with each other, btw.

I'm not the one claiming a baby fell off a cliff and survived relatively unscathed for the most part. Furthermore, being competent enough to elaborate some fake murder scheme or a murder plot for gold.

If I'm guilty of anything, it's surrendering my theories and postulating new ones to counter any weaknesses in my original thesis. If you want to call that moving the posts, I'm guilty as charged.

Your personal incredulity is not a point against something being true or not.

Babies have survived cliff falls in real life. Those babies grow up, and can be as dumb or as smart as anyone else in the world, and it's fairly easy to coerce people into a fake game where no one is actually hurt if you have several tons of gold and they all need money.

Your arguments aren't even new; go back about 600 pages or so.

All I'm asking, is what's to gain from some fake murder game? Attention? That's a pretty sick way to get attention if you ask me.

So what? What if she IS seeking attention? That doesn't make it not true. Despite your claims, YOU'RE the one rejecting something because you don't like it.

But as for why...The game happens because Battler returns to the island. Battler is Yasu's/Shannon's first love, and they bonded over mystery novels. Yasu/Shannon worried for years that he forgot her. The game is a test; she is replicating one of his favorite mysteries, hoping that he sees through the illusion and remembers her. She's childishly trying to use the one thing they bonded over because she's too scared to say it upfront, just like she was too scared years ago to call him on the phone and ask.

I can see it, because I have love.

You have love for Rosa and Maria, sure. But you don't seem to have love for Beatrice, because you don't understand her. You don't have love for Ryukishi, because you don't understand what he wanted to tell you. You don't have love for Battler, because you do not understand his pain after losing Beatrice, and why he feels responsible. You don't have love for Yasu, because you won't even accept she exists.

You do not have love. Not the love you're being asked to find.

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by ALPHA-Beatrice

What gain would Battler possibly get out of it? Is 'Yasu' the conspirator he's working in tandem with? Why would Shannon and Kanon betray the very household that's employing them?

Please read my theory from a few posts back, because you clearly haven't, as it shows a possible scenario for this. And Shannon/Kanon/Beatrice do not betray their household, they do exactly what they claimed they would do, hand everything (monetary and intellectually) over to the next head/the one who solves the epitaph.

From the beginning it is made clear that Natsuhi and Krauss have reason to believe that the servants are working against them, which is why they hired Gohda. From the very start on both Shannon and Kanon make it clear that they work for the "master of the house".

While Kanon wants to 'feel love', he utterly rejects the concept in all games. Acknowledging his role as furniture. This is different from Shannon, who openly pursues her relationship with George and Beatrice who begrudgingly comes to accept Battler on a platonic level.

But what does that tell us about him as one part of the "broken up soul?"
Yasu was clearly raised as female, having an original Shannon as a rolemodel, hanging out with female servants, wearing dresses. Isn't it more likely that 'he' simply does not know how to love as a 'male'?

Even more, what is the promise that Beatrice wants Battler to remember, which she in EP4 claims was not done to her but in EP5 goes insane over when she says that she can never trust one of Battler's promises again? What is it if not the one promise mentioned during the early stage of the game, the promise to Shannon?

If multiple existences or personalities were true, then theoretically the battle is unnecessary. 'Shannon' can be with George, 'Kanon' can be with Jessica and Beatrice can be with Battler.

How is the battle unnecessary? Yasu is still one body, she cannot be with several people at once no matter what personalities she takes on. Especially when George brings marriage into the game it becomes the question of a lock-down, one path has to be chosen.
They are more than personalities, they are different paths given a voice due to a way too overactive imagination. As soon as one path is chosen the other can no longer be pursued. That is why Yasu thinks the Golden Land is necessary, because if everybody exists in an imaginary space, wiped from existence without a trace, then they can be with as many people as they want.

By comparison, we know that Rosa herself has never actually experienced love. Having been abandoned by Maria's father, and subconsciously pushing away any male that did like her.

Rosa did love her husband or else she would have never gone the length she went through in order to get him to come back.
Also, where is it implied that she subconsciously pushes men away?

In fact, Shannon later regrets breaking the mirror and releasing Beatrice because it began the games which led to the killings. Instead of the happy days between the cousins.. I'm sure you'll explain that conflict as a part of Yasu's multiple personality disorder, oh well.

The question here is rather, if as you say Beatrice is a different person than Shannon and especially if you claim she is Rosa, how do you explain several of these events?

What does the mirror in the shrine stand for and why would Shannon have to smash it?
How was Rosa able to sneak onto the island and meet Shannon on several occasions?
What would Rosa gain by having these conversations with Shannon and Kanon?
How is Rosa the granddaughter of Beatrice Castiglioni? Current Beatrice=granddaughter of original Beatrice is something stated in EP8.
Why would Rosa allow her daughter and herself to be killed in EP2?

If Shannon/Kanon=Yasu whose Beatrice, then why couldn't Kanon simply give Maria a new bar of candy? Kanon bemoaned the fact that all he could do was brush it off. Shannon was demonstrably with the other cousins in the guesthouse!
Because Kanon is not the one performing magic. Beatrice is the one wielding magic.
By that logic your idea of Rosa=Beatrice breaks down as Beatrice wouldn't crush Maria's candy.
And where was Shannon demonstrably in the guesthouse? Do we have a "while this happened" scene?

So now, in order to trap me with this blue, you're going to have to deny at the least that Yasu(Beatrice) wasn't the one on the phone. But there's more.

Either your grasp of English or your understanding of that sentence is flawed. Yasu could have been the man on the phone, it's just more likely that it was Battler since Natsuhi is less familiar with his voice. The man on the other end can be a murderer but doesn't need to be one.

To have the kind of information that the man of 19 years ago had, he would have to had been intimate with the family, to have knowledge of it. Yasu was kept in secret by Genji and Kuwasawa. You can argue that they filled in the blanks, but doubtful. And I'm sorry, Battler was away for 6 freaking years!(Six).

Like I said, read my frickin' post a little bit further up.
EP8 (at least the manga) makes it clear that the information on Natsuhi and the baby's fate was given to 'Beatrice' by her trusted head furniture (Ronove=Genji). And since Beatrice swore to hand everything to the one who solves the epitaph, it is not unlikely that Battler gained knowledge of this element as well.

It's a clear statement, Erika doesn't exist.

It is not as clear cut as you make it to be. Like Aura already said very correctly, Erika is set up to raise the human counter on the island by 1, Erika is +1 no matter if she existed as a live human on the island in real life or not. Which means that her inclusion would make the number of island inhabitants "real number X" + 1 and if the result of her inclusion is given as 17, then it becomes real number=16 because of 16+1=17.

"The identities of all unidentified corpses are guaranteed"

So in other words, when Kanon was pronounced dead in the 3rd game we can be absolutely sure it was Kanon!

No, and you fell into a double trap.
1) Like GreyZone already said, someone who is pretending to be dead is not a corpse.
2) Kanon was clearly identitifiable, his face was intact, the only thing that happened to him was that he apparently had a wound on his chest. Apart from maybe Kinzo there was no unidentified corpse in EP3. I go even further, Kanon or Shannon where never among the corpses that had their respective identity drawn into question.

I already expressed my doubts about Kanon being Shannon, but let's flip it the other way around: How the hell are you going to make Shannon Kanon? Better yet: Whom among the males could remotely disguise themselves as Kanon?

You could argue "breast reconstruction surgery." Except Nanjo is a physician, not necessarily a surgeon.

I really don't understand your question here.
Kanon becoming Shannon? Put on a wig, pad out the bra and speak a little more feminine. Hell, I pulled it off to confuse my classmates when I crossplayed at the last costume party so far that three of my friends actually hit on me.
Shannon becoming Kanon? Loose the padding, act a little more gloomy and don't draw too much attention to yourself.
But this draws into question if Shannon and Kanon as distinct roles ever existed in the first place. We only know that Kanon was seen with Jessica on one culture festival at her school and while one survivor refuses to talk, the other is actively trying to conceal stuff and the last person who was ever on the island frequently is unable to even remember how her grandfather acted around her.

I'm not the one claiming a baby fell off a cliff and survived relatively unscathed for the most part.

Please look at the link in my last post!

Originally Posted by ALPHA-Beatrice

The terminology of fake, was only used in conjunction with the world of Rokkenjima. While obviously, the series itself is fake. We as viewers are able to view the world of Rokkenjima, unbiased and to see the reality of their world.

And this is where you are wrong again, we see Yasu's account of Rokkenjima, Hachijo Toya's pre- and post-memory-regaining account of Rokkenjima, we see several Witch Hunter theories on Rokkenjima. It is exactly the point that we, like Ange, like the Witch Hunters, are unable to see an unbiased account of Rokkenjima.

The chain of events that led up to the reality we see depicted from EP3 onwards, 1998, is more or less fixed but only to the people who were actually there and only they can lock it down.

[GoldenLand]

Originally Posted by ALPHA-Beatrice

I don't see how this refutes my notion that Yasu doesn't exist, or that Shannon and Kanon being one and the same is as plausible as humanity defying the law of gravity.

So, are you claiming that Shannon and Kanon are not the same person?

In that case, how do you explain the fact that each of them lacks a complete soul, and their dreams (and Beatrice's) are mutually exclusive because they contradict each other, meaning that only one of them can succeed?

How do you explain the lines in Episode's 8 manga which say

Shannon: The vessel that allowed us to exist in this world is only one. That's why you and I cannot be happy together in this world. But, in the Golden Land, a future where I am united to George-sama

Kanon: and a future where I am united to Milady, would come true at the same time.

?

Canon is explicit there in saying that the reason their dreams are contradictory is because their body is one and the same. Beatrice's dream is also contradictory to Shannon and Kanon's dreams in the same way. Only one of the three can have their dream come true.

[ALPHA-Beatrice]

Originally Posted by haguruma

Please read my theory from a few posts back, because you clearly haven't, as it shows a possible scenario for this. And Shannon/Kanon/Beatrice do not betray their household, they do exactly what they claimed they would do, hand everything (monetary and intellectually) over to the next head/the one who solves the epitaph.

**Displeased by the turn of events, where he has 4 opponents against him, and furthermore it being an argument not of truth, but of ideological views of truth made this argument impossible to win.**

**Still, the male witch drank tea and hoped to construct an argument that would fit all four's viewpoint and hope to move the post at least a little.**


According to Virgilia, Beatrice loses nothing whether the epitath is solved or not. In other words, we can make the proposition that the gold never belonged to Kanon, Shannon, Yasu, Beatrice in the first place.

Rather than there being a fake murder game, what if the events on Rookenjima themselves were Kinzo's will?

The only reason there wasn't a game in 1985 was that Battler didn't return until a year later, to raise the number up to 17 people on Rokkenjima.

Originally Posted by haguruma

From the beginning it is made clear that Natsuhi and Krauss have reason to believe that the servants are working against them, which is why they hired Gohda. From the very start on both Shannon and Kanon make it clear that they work for the "master of the house".

But basically the entire family remarks on how reliable and trustworthy Genji is. Even Kanon seems to be held in regard. About the only character with which for example Natsuhi showed clear disgust for was Shannon, on the account of her clumsiness as a servant.

Originally Posted by Hagurama

But what does that tell us about him as one part of the "broken up soul?"
Yasu was clearly raised as female, having an original Shannon as a rolemodel, hanging out with female servants, wearing dresses. Isn't it more likely that 'he' simply does not know how to love as a 'male'?

I'll use this post here to postulate about Rokkenjima Prime.

Prime exists, it has to exist! The entire story is based off the "real" events that occurred in the Umineko world.

We're just not shown which, if any of the worlds is actually Rokkenjima Prime. But I've stated a hypothesis several pages earlier: All of the worlds reflect a part of Prime.

I'm even willing to go as far as episode 5, namely the part of Kinzo being dead long before the events of 1986. But outside of that, the episode was clearly a sham.

Originally Posted by Hagurama

Even more, what is the promise that Beatrice wants Battler to remember, which she in EP4 claims was not done to her but in EP5 goes insane over when she says that she can never trust one of Battler's promises again? What is it if not the one promise mentioned during the early stage of the game, the promise to Shannon?

At the end of the fourth game, Battler made a promise to Beatrice. He promised to "kill her", he promised to find out the truth of the game. Which, whether he actually did or not is a mystery outside of his title as the Golden Sorcerer.

Because if he did actually solve it, Will wouldn't have been necessary and Clair(Yasu/Beatrice) states as such, saying that it wasn't the one(Battler) she wanted but that there was an excellent observer.

Originally Posted by Hagurama

How is the battle unnecessary? Yasu is still one body, she cannot be with several people at once no matter what personalities she takes on. Especially when George brings marriage into the game it becomes the question of a lock-down, one path has to be chosen.
They are more than personalities, they are different paths given a voice due to a way too overactive imagination. As soon as one path is chosen the other can no longer be pursued. That is why Yasu thinks the Golden Land is necessary, because if everybody exists in an imaginary space, wiped from existence without a trace, then they can be with as many people as they want.

At least we concur to one body. Now allow me to hypothesize a simple truth.

**sips some more tea**

If Yasu only exists as one body, then how can Kanon and Shannon exist in front of the cousins at the same time? As they are shown to do so in multiple occasions! How can they successfully change their clothing from male to female and vice versa seemingly within minutes, all without the cousins noticin a thing?

If Yasu exists, she does so outside of the mansion, never to be seen or acknowledged by the other 17 humans. In other words, she's the 18th human on Rokkenjima.

If she orders Genji and Kuwasawa, she does so strictly from Kuwadorian. It wouldn't be farfetched to imagine a private line that only connects the mansion and Kuwadorian that the three of them have access to.

Originally Posted by Hagurama

Rosa did love her husband or else she would have never gone the length she went through in order to get him to come back.
Also, where is it implied that she subconsciously pushes men away?

In the fourth game! It's detailed that Rosa went out to a vacation with a man. After receiving a Phone call from Maria, the man asked her to be more considerate of her daughter.

Then she goes on a nonsensical rampage about how the man doesn't care for her because of Maria(not true at all and the man tries to interject many times) before finally, Rosa rejects him herself.

Originally Posted by Hagurama

The question here is rather, if as you say Beatrice is a different person than Shannon and especially if you claim she is Rosa, how do you explain several of these events?

What does the mirror in the shrine stand for and why would Shannon have to smash it?
How was Rosa able to sneak onto the island and meet Shannon on several occasions?
What would Rosa gain by having these conversations with Shannon and Kanon?
How is Rosa the granddaughter of Beatrice Castiglioni? Current Beatrice=granddaughter of original Beatrice is something stated in EP8.
Why would Rosa allow her daughter and herself to be killed in EP2?

According to the episodes, the mirror sealed the spirit that is Beatrice, the witch who rules over Rokkenjima in the night. It's entirely possible that it's a roleplay between Rosa and Shannon(as well as the other servants) and breaking the mirror is a precursor to the "spirit" that is Beatrice..

As I hypotheize for the first question, I believe Rosa may have been roleplaying with Shannon and Kanon. Keep in mind that Rosa lived on the mansion longer than any of the other siblings and was partially responsible for the death of Kuwadorian Beatrice.

She might believe in the epitath basically more than anybody.

I postulate that Rosa is Yasu, IE: The child from 19 years ago. We know that Kinzo is Rosa's father, but we don't know who her mother is. She could be the result of incest from the Kuwadorian Beatrice.

Originally Posted by Hagurama

Because Kanon is not the one performing magic. Beatrice is the one wielding magic.
By that logic your idea of Rosa=Beatrice breaks down as Beatrice wouldn't crush Maria's candy.
And where was Shannon demonstrably in the guesthouse? Do we have a "while this happened" scene?

You were the one who argued for the validity of multiple personalities. Maybe 'Beatrice' wouldn't crush her candy, but Rosa would as she never really wanted to buy it in the first place.

Besides What's the likelihood of Shannon or Kanon possessing the same kind of candy?

Originally Posted by Hagurama

Either your grasp of English or your understanding of that sentence is flawed. Yasu could have been the man on the phone, it's just more likely that it was Battler since Natsuhi is less familiar with his voice. The man on the other end can be a murderer but doesn't need to be one.

But you(or was it Aura) claimed that the man from 19 years ago couldn't have been the culprit! Now it's a 180? Fine, in that case doesn't that validate my theory that Eva knows the truth about Natsuhi and had George act out the part?

Originally Posted by Hagurama

Like I said, read my frickin' post a little bit further up.
EP8 (at least the manga) makes it clear that the information on Natsuhi and the baby's fate was given to 'Beatrice' by her trusted head furniture (Ronove=Genji). And since Beatrice swore to hand everything to the one who solves the epitaph, it is not unlikely that Battler gained knowledge of this element as well.

If Rosa is Beatrice, then everything still fits. Including her being Yasu.

When Battler solves the epitath, he becomes the ruler of Rokkenjima, no? So why does he feel obligated in any way to play along with Yasu's game? Knowing Battler's personality, he'd ask Yasu to play a game that doesn't involve framing Natsuhi.(or for that matter, any of the siblings/cousins).

Originally Posted by Hagurama

It is not as clear cut as you make it to be. Like Aura already said very correctly, Erika is set up to raise the human counter on the island by 1, Erika is +1 no matter if she existed as a live human on the island in real life or not. Which means that her inclusion would make the number of island inhabitants "real number X" + 1 and if the result of her inclusion is given as 17, then it becomes real number=16 because of 16+1=17.

In that case, Kinzo's corpse also counts as a Human. Even if he's dead and unable to participate, he's still a "human" on the "island". So if you argue that Erika raises the "counter" by 1, then there's 18 Humans on Rookenjima.


Which was later denied by both Beatrice and Battler in the meta world. Which means obviously Kinzo doesn't exist. Neither does Erika.

She didn't swim ashore from some tragic ship wreck and made it to the island. Or even if she did, she wouldn't have the strength to make it to the mansion on her own power.

Originally Posted by Hagurama

No, and you fell into a double trap.
1) Like GreyZone already said, someone who is pretending to be dead is not a corpse.
2) Kanon was clearly identitifiable, his face was intact, the only thing that happened to him was that he apparently had a wound on his chest. Apart from maybe Kinzo there was no unidentified corpse in EP3. I go even further, Kanon or Shannon where never among the corpses that had their respective identity drawn into question.

None of the corpses would lead to a mistaken autopsy

Ronove countered this by stating that even if a corpse couldn't lead to a mistaken autopsy, it doesn't matter if it wasn't a corpse to begin with.

Here, I'll expand with another fact:

Dr. Nanjo wouldn't deliberately mistake a real corpse for a fake.

Unless of course if he was Yasu's accomplice. So it goes back to what you believe. Do you believe the entire Ushiromiya family is delusional and saw a body(either Shannon or Kanon's) that doesn't exist? Particularly in the 1st game we saw Shannon and Kanon together when the family first makes it there)


It only makes sense for Nanjo to be Yasu's accomplice if Rosa is Yasu=Beatrice.

Originally Posted by Hagurama

I really don't understand your question here.
Kanon becoming Shannon? Put on a wig, pad out the bra and speak a little more feminine. Hell, I pulled it off to confuse my classmates when I crossplayed at the last costume party so far that three of my friends actually hit on me.
Shannon becoming Kanon? Loose the padding, act a little more gloomy and don't draw too much attention to yourself.
But this draws into question if Shannon and Kanon as distinct roles ever existed in the first place. We only know that Kanon was seen with Jessica on one culture festival at her school and while one survivor refuses to talk, the other is actively trying to conceal stuff and the last person who was ever on the island frequently is unable to even remember how her grandfather acted around her.

Except, how realistic is it for a sane person to put off two completely different personalities? Even with people who have multiple personalities they have a crucial philosophical agreement.

You can argue that's their definition of being called furniture. But I regress, I actually have multiple personalities myself. On the inside, I'm a person who can be rather lazy and content. On the outside, I'm an alpha male with lavish goals.

Where's the crucial philosophical agreement? Pleasure. To the lazy, contented part of me and the overly ambitious part, a sense of fulfillment is the meaning of my existence as a human being.

Originally Posted by Hagurama

Please look at the link in my last post!

It's crucial to note the baby in that story was strapped and had padding. We also don't know how far the baby fell.

We don't have that level of detail with Yasu, but a cliff is higher, the infant is probably younger and less developed. From the time you come out of your womb until maybe 5-6 years old, your bones are still forming and you're as soft as tissue.

So is it possible? I surrender to you that it's possible. Probable? Eh, that's a tougher sell.

Originally Posted by Hagurama

And this is where you are wrong again, we see Yasu's account of Rokkenjima, Hachijo Toya's pre- and post-memory-regaining account of Rokkenjima, we see several Witch Hunter theories on Rokkenjima. It is exactly the point that we, like Ange, like the Witch Hunters, are unable to see an unbiased account of Rokkenjima.

The chain of events that led up to the reality we see depicted from EP3 onwards, 1998, is more or less fixed but only to the people who were actually there and only they can lock it down.

Incorrect. It's true that the events in Rookenjima are fixed and thereby we can only see a limited number of views but this doesn't cloud our judgment in any way shape or form. Our independence as readers of the story still exists, and we can still render judgment on what exactly occurred on Rookenjima.

The only thing we cannot do, seemingly is come to a consensus on what happened. I'll surrender as far as this: Aura is right, I don't have love for Yasu. But aren't I reserved to my right to have "love" for Rosatrice? Just as you are reserved to your right to have "love" for Shakanontrice?

[GoldenLand]

Originally Posted by ALPHA-Beatrice

As I hypotheize for the first question, I believe Rosa may have been roleplaying with Shannon and Kanon. Keep in mind that Rosa lived on the mansion longer than any of the other siblings and was partially responsible for the death of Kuwadorian Beatrice.

I postulate that Rosa is Yasu, IE: The child from 19 years ago. We know that Kinzo is Rosa's father, but we don't know who her mother is. She could be the result of incest from the Kuwadorian Beatrice.

Rosa is about 35 years old. How can she be the baby from 19 years ago? Also, Maria is 9 years old. If Rosa is a 19 year old Yasu, then she would have given birth to Maria when she was 10 years old. She would have been younger than George, and he and the entire rest of the family would have known this. Yet we have never seen any indication of it in canon, and we have seen things which contradict it clearly. And also if Rosa is Yasu, then Rosa never met Kuwadorian Beatrice the way we were shown in canon, so unless Kuwadorian Beato died as a result of childbirth, Rosa-Yasu could not possibly have been responsible for it.

Also, we do know who Rosa's mother is: Kinzo's wife, the same as the mother of Krauss, Eva, and Rudolf. Of course, we don't have it in red for any of them. Nonetheless...

Knox's 8th. It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not presented.

Have you got any clues to support Rosa being 19 years old and not Mrs Ushiromiya's child? And when, exactly, would Rosa have been roleplaying with Kanon and Shannon?

Originally Posted by ALPHA-Beatrice

But basically the entire family remarks on how reliable and trustworthy Genji is. Even Kanon seems to be held in regard. About the only character with which for example Natsuhi showed clear disgust for was Shannon, on the account of her clumsiness as a servant.

Genji is an authority figure for the family, but nonetheless, the servants who bore the one-winged eagle were working directly for Kinzo, and it was easy to suspect them.

Legend of the Golden Witch:

"Genji, Shannon, and Kanon were all permitted to wear the Ushiromiya family crest, the 'One-winged Eagle', as the servants who served directly under Kinzo.

Of course, since they were working for the Ushiromiya family, they had to obey anyone's orders, but their only boss was Kinzo. Since only Kinzo held the right to employ them, even Krauss could not have them dismissed of his own accord.

Because of this, they were often viewed by Krauss and the others as Kinzo's underlings and shunned. " (emphasis added)

Also, Natsuhi had it in for both Kanon and Shannon. The following quote is about Gohda, but then goes on to mention Natsuhi.

Legend of the Golden Witch:

"Because Shannon-san and Kanon-kun are his seniors here at the mansion, and yet are inexperienced and have gone through much less in life than he has, he picks on them at every chance he gets...

And also, ...although it's terrible, they are hated by Madam Natsuhi too..."

...

"......Naturally, Madam's inner thoughts fully acknowledge that there's no reason to treat those two so harshly...

...However, the heart has reasons that reason knows not..."

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by ALPHA-Beatrice

It only makes sense for Nanjo to be Yasu's accomplice if Rosa is Yasu=Beatrice.

Why? Why not when Yasu = shkanontrice? hm?

[ALPHA-Beatrice]

Originally Posted by GoldenLand

Rosa is about 35 years old. How can she be the baby from 19 years ago? Also, Maria is 9 years old. If Rosa is a 19 year old Yasu, then she would have given birth to Maria when she was 10 years old. She would have been younger than George, and he and the entire rest of the family would have known this. Yet we have never seen any indication of it in canon, and we have seen things which contradict it clearly.

Also, we do know who Rosa's mother is: Kinzo's wife, the same as the mother of Krauss, Eva, and Rudolf. Of course, we don't have it in red for any of them. Nonetheless...

Knox's 8th. It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not presented.

Have you got any clues to support Rosa being 19 years old and not Mrs Ushiromiya's child? And when, exactly, would Rosa have been roleplaying with Kanon and Shannon?

Admittedly, there are no clues pertaining to Rosa being 19 years old nor Mrs.Ushiromiya's child.

But it's clear Rosa had often access to the mansion, and it's clear that Shannon had been serving there for a while. But I think this argument I've had with everyone has allowed me to reach the Truth of all Truths.

Yes, without love it can't be seen.

Shannon is the culprit of the Umineko games.

I'm not supporting "Shakanontrice", I'm saying Shannon and Shannon alone is the culprit.

I present the theory that Kanon, like Yasu is a figment of Shannon's imagination.


This is my list for working out the "17 people riddle."(Which implied there's only 16 people)

I'll order the lists in Red to Blue to "Gold"

Original List of people on the Island.

Kinzo 1
Krauss 2
Natsuhi 3
Hideyoshi 4
George 5
Rudolf 6
Kyrie 7
Rosa 8
Maria 9
Genji 10
Shannon 11
Kanon 12
Gohda 13
Kumasawa 14
Nanjo 15
Battler 16
Eva 17
Jessica 18]

Let's make a list that includes Yasu, takes out "Shannon" and "Kanon" and includes Erika.

Kinzo 1
Krauss 2
Natsuhi 3
Hideyoshi 4
George 5
Rudolf 6
Kyrie 7
Rosa 8
Maria 9
Genji 10
Yasu 11
Erika 12
Gohda 13
Kumasawa 14
Nanjo 15
Battler 16
Eva 17
Jessica 18


To accomplish this, we'd have to take Kinzo off the island.

New List:

Krauss 1
Natsuhi 2
Hideyoshi 3
George 4
Rudolf 5
Kyrie 6
Rosa 7
Maria 8
Genji 9
Yasu 10
Erika 11
Gohda 12
Kumasawa 13
Nanjo 14
Battler 15
Eva 16
Jessica 17

However, it says "if" you join us there's 17. Implying that originally, there was only 16 people.
The Shkanontrice solution would be to eliminate Erika.

Sorry, but you can't do that and claim Erika "exists".


This is the Answer:Real List of people who attended the family conference:


Krauss 1
Natsuhi 2
Hideyoshi 3
George 4
Rudolf 5
Kyrie 6
Rosa 7
Maria 8
Genji 9
Shannon 10
Gohda 11
Kumasawa 12
Nanjo 13
Battler 14
Eva 15
Jessica 16


I'll settle Knox's 8th and present evidence that Kanon never existed. Primarily, the 3rd game. In Jessica's room, Kanon's "corpse" disappeared. And in that same game, a "alien" Kanon appeared and only Shannon seemingly knew this alien's weakness or for that matter its existence.

It was also mentioned that Yasu had a conversation with Rosa, with Rosa having guaranteed "Yasu"(Shannon) that Battler would return. and that she was devastated when Battler in fact didn't return.


In concurrence with the "multiple personalities" theory, Beatrice was created to represent the fact that 6 years later, Shannon still hadn't let go of all her feelings for Battler.

The hole in my revision might seem to be the fact that Kanon and Jessica had a connection, but what if Jessica acknowledged Kanon as an imaginary friend? Shannon created her "Kanon" persona for Jessica's sake, who is her best friend who also hasn't experienced love.

[haguruma]

Happy frickin' birthday...you are basically agreeing to the Yasu-theory and only changing it by saying that Yasu is imagined instead of Shannon.
So where exactly does your theory differ?

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by ALPHA-Beatrice

However, it says "if" you join us there's 17. Implying that originally, there was only 16 people.
The Shkanontrice solution would be to eliminate Erika.

Sorry, but you can't do that and claim Erika "exists".

The red about there being 17 people including Erika only applies for the 6th game. For EP1-4 it is no more than 17 humans and for EP5 it is the same amount as in EP1-4 plus Erika and claiming that "The Shkanontrice solution would be to eliminate Erika" is garbage, because the number of people in your "real" list is exactly the same as the one of Shkanontrice interpretation, because shannon/kanon/beatrice together are considered "1 person".

Originally Posted by ALPHA-Beatrice

I'll settle Knox's 8th and present evidence that Kanon never existed. Primarily, the 3rd game. In Jessica's room, Kanon's "corpse" disappeared. And in that same game, a "alien" Kanon appeared and only Shannon seemingly knew this alien's weakness or for that matter its existence.

Wrong. The so-called "Alien Kanon" only appeard in EP2.

[ALPHA-Beatrice]

Originally Posted by haguruma

Happy frickin' birthday...you are basically agreeing to the Yasu-theory and only changing it by saying that Yasu is imagined instead of Shannon.
So where exactly does your theory differ?

It differs in that Shannon is a "real" human being, with Yasu and Kanon being nothing more than figments of her imagination. Partially concocted with Rosa and her guilt of Kuwadorian Beatrice.

In short, this is a mystery. Whereas if there actually were "real", alternative peoples it would be a fantasy.

[Renall]

By the way... Erika does exist. There was a person named Erika Furudo. What happened to her is as unknown as anyone else in that area on that weekend; hence, since it is not impossible to imagine Erika could be present in the catbox, it is possible to put her there as a valid living human. How she is characterized is probably an invention of Bernkastel. But her TIP assuredly suggests she did exist at some point. It's very unlikely she survived to even reach Rokkenjima in the "Prime" universe, but we really don't know. That aside, speculating on whether Erika exists IRL misses the entire point of Erika's introduction to the series. I don't much like her as a character, but there's a purpose to her existence that has nothing whatsoever to do with how plausible it is that she's real.

Also: "Shannon" was never a real human being. "Shannon" is a pseudonym for a human being who works for the family. It isn't her real name. None of the Fukuin servant names are real names. There has always been a person "behind" Shannon or Kanon, because that's the very definition of the role that they play. Whether you believe them to be separate or the same, their root identity isn't "Shannon the servant" or "Kanon the servant." There's a human being with a normal name in there. Bear in mind "Yasu" is also a nickname; we never actually learn her full name with absolute certainty... although you'd think people in the future would know. I mean, Ange should know.