[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 6 Dawn of the golden witch

[Leafsnail]

And Genji in ep3, I think. The one wing servants seem to have an "Oh no, not again" kindof outlook there.

Probably because Beatrice's meandering storyline crosses between episodes and sometimes brings in meta stuff too. As long as the end result is the same, she can do what she likes.

[ErenselTheJester]

Well, what I think is that Erika is never a piece, but in fact participates in the game herself. If I'm correct, since she doesn't exist on the original gameboard (the gameboard originally created by Beatrice), she is a character that isn't tied to those rules. Thus, she is allowed to retain memories from past games, talk to meta- characters in the real world, etc..

[Renall]

Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester

Well, what I think is that Erika is never a piece, but in fact participates in the game herself. If I'm correct, since she doesn't exist on the original gameboard (the gameboard originally created by Beatrice), she is a character that isn't tied to those rules. Thus, she is allowed to retain memories from past games, talk to meta- characters in the real world, etc..

If indeed there is a "game" in which to participate. If there is, though, either the "game" exists in the fiction, or Dawn of the Golden Witch is a very different story than the end product of ep6, or Erika's behavior in Dawn is very different from her behavior in the "game."

[ErenselTheJester]

Well, I'm sort of thinking that Umineko is sort of a record of what happened on Rokkenjima and is put on public display for the sake of people trying to figure out what happened (as is usually the case of most mysterious events). With that in mind, everything passed episode 2 is a false account created by other authors. So, basically, the game has already ended, Dawn is just part of an extremely drawn out "filler" of sorts. Going along with that, I imagine that if Erika were to appear in any of the earlier episodes, she would've acted the same as she does now. Which leads me to believe that she is simply an "other-worldly" character, a cardboard cutout pasted on a fabulous portrait, sort of speak.

[Aspirety]

I agree. I think there is sufficient evidence suggesting that her presence on the gameboard is unlike any characters thus far, one of the important things being the detective proclamation and her ability to use the red on the gameboard.

[Leafsnail]

It actually makes quite a lot of sense for the detective to be able to speak in red, but for others not to be able to. For instance, if you're reading a detective novel with a clearly established super-genius detective and he says "Hmm, I don't think you'd be able to force your way through these window shutters" you can probably eliminate any possibilities involving them unless you are later given clues to the contrary.

[DaBackpack]

Originally Posted by Leafsnail

It actually makes quite a lot of sense for the detective to be able to speak in red, but for others not to be able to. For instance, if you're reading a detective novel with a clearly established super-genius detective and he says "Hmm, I don't think you'd be able to force your way through these window shutters" you can probably eliminate any possibilities involving them unless you are later given clues to the contrary.

That's the difference between regular mysteries and Umineko, though:

When something is spoken in red, it's truth cannot be denied at any point in time.
It is impossible to set the chain lock from the outside, for example, cannot be refuted in any way.

In a regular novel, the detective can say "I don't think you can lock this door from the outside." It should be considered true until some mechanism X for locking the door from the outside is discovered and overwrites the old truth.

You're right, though: it's the same premise that the detective is the one giving us hints and clues to solve the mystery.

[Shade Vortex]

This isn't really a theory, but much more a progress report on my document. I'm not gonna upload the current version however, not until I've finished writing down episode 2's notes (including the tea party and ????).

But I did feel it was important to say that I've gotten to the first Twilight, in case anyone was worried I was going to drop my project. I'll continue to say progress reports in the future, if that's okay.

Anyways, one of the greatest challenges I have been facing during my construction of notes is in deciding what is important enough to write down- honestly, even minor tidbits and details can become important later on, and so I've included mundane things in the notes.

Another problem is exactly the opposite: When rereading episode 1, since I had already written down it's notes, I was completely unsure of how to include things I did find important that I had forgotten the first time. The very structure of the format in the document is far too important to me to just add one or two details, I need a full list of five legitimate details in a row.

Of course, since I already finished rereading episode 1 when I uploaded the past version of the document, I had obviously chosen to not include these details I felt might be important.. so I've been making up for that by including lots of details in the episode 2 notes, no matter how mundane.

tl;dr version: Don't be surprised if episode 2 and the rest of the episodes have even more notes than episode 1 and 6 did.

[Mirrored]

Originally Posted by Leafsnail

b) That there is one person who can be called "The culprit". They can have accomplices, but the majority of the killings should be carried out by them. I feel this sortof follows from the reds along the lines of "so and so is not the culprit".

I think how we define The Culprit is pretty important. The Culprit, as I would define it, is the person or persons who conspired to bring about the murders that occurred and created a situation where the family conference is going to end in tragedy. They do not even have to kill anyone at all with their own hands, they just need to arrange for it to be done to be The Culprit.

Thus the dead cannot be excused. If Kyrie and Rudolf plotted to murder the entire family and brought events to that point, then they are the culprits, even if they die during the first twilight of Ep2. The Culprit is someone who was so furious at the actions of the family, that all they care about is the death of everyone involved.

Perhaps The Culprit has manipulated various people into becoming murderers, some may not even know about each other. The Culprit has also arranged for an Explosion (I suspect the Boiler Room) as a last resort to make sure everyone dies regardless of whether or not the plan succeeds and possibly out of spite for the place itself.

Beatrice may or may not be the actual Culprit, I am unsure on this point. If she is, she only seems to "win" two of the games, Game 2 and Game 4, where both times she has a final talk with Battler before taking her own life, either in an explosion, or with a revolver. I believe that the Beatrice seen in Episode 4 is Jessica.

Because:
1) She pronounced to Battler exactly how she was going to die. The easiest way to know how you are going to die is if you are going to be the one doing it.
2) She "witnessed" George's test and had knowledge she should not have had.
3) All of the keys to the mansion were outside of the Mansion at the time that the person dressed as Beatrice appeared in Kinzo's study. Barring a secret passage, there was no way inside the mansion, thus the person who appeared as Beatrice would have to still be in the Mansion at the end of the Game.

So, what happens in Episode 4 is that Jessica survives the situation regardless of whether she set it up or not. She confronts Battler at the very end. He can't remember their promise. Distraught, she returns to her room, and kills herself with a revolver, with a string tied to the trigger.

This is the same trick used by Justice Wargrave in And Then There Were None. Beatrice is also a character in the same novel, a woman who commits suicide. Given that Beatrice kills herself at the end of both Ep2 and Ep4 its a pretty fitting name.

[Shade Vortex]

Originally Posted by Mirrored

Post

(Only quoting to make it obvious who I am replying to.)

I agree that Jessica is Beatrice in episode 4, actually. Actually, I'd go so far as to say she is always Beatrice. While Beatrice is multiple people, there is indeed only one mastermind, and it must be the same person in all the games, the way I see it.

In fact... there are actually a lot of clues I've noticed that can pinpoint a Jessica culprit theory as being valid. Equally true is that there are enough clues to support ShKanon. I might as well give my own theory on events, since I'm going through so much work to make notes of everything to help theories along.

Basically, the way I view things, both Jessica=Beatrice and Shannon=Kanon are true. ShKanon may be part of who Beatrice is, but only an accomplice at most, and not The Mastermind/Culprit.

I also know of a very, very specific clue that is very, very important. I'm sure people know of it, but even if they don't, you won't be seeing me say it until I write it in my notes. But I'll give a hint to a hint and say that red markings (I don't mean it was said in the red truth) will pinpoint people to my interpretation of the truth.

[Aspirety]

Are you people aware of 'The Pony Theory'? I think that may be very close to the truth, personally.

[rogerpepitone]

Originally Posted by Mirrored

So, what happens in Episode 4 is that Jessica survives the situation regardless of whether she set it up or not. She confronts Battler at the very end. He can't remember their promise. Distraught, she returns to her room, and kills herself with a revolver, with a string tied to the trigger.

This is the same trick used by *** in And Then There Were None. Beatrice is also a character in the same novel, a woman who commits suicide. Given that Beatrice kills herself at the end of both Ep2 and Ep4 its a pretty fitting name.

Spoiler for Ten Little Indians the novel:

Wargraves used an elastic band, not string. (Gun attached to band looped around doorknob back to glasses under Wargraves body.)
I don't think the Wargraves method would work.
1) Wargraves died of a small wound to the forehead that could be delivered with a small pistol. Jessica's death would have required a more powerful (and presumably larger) weapon.
2) The pistol was explicitly found in Wargraves's room, just inside the door.

Also, Genji's key was ostensibly in the mansion the entire time.

[Smeckledorf]

Originally Posted by AspieSincerity

Are you people aware of 'The Pony Theory'? I think that may be very close to the truth, personally.

I don't know about pony theory, one would think 'the pony' would start freaking out after the first ~6 deaths. It is my personal opinion that the first three episodes destroy pony theory. We would have to assume that this mastermind could manipulate anyone if that were the case.

Anyways, I agree with TehChron. The gamemaster is allowed to show parts of the story where the detective is not present as he or she wishes. No detective in episode 6 means all of it is subject to the gamemaster's interpretation.

[ErenselTheJester]

Well, I remember in And Then There Were None the people simply played into the culprit's hands. Pretty much, the only thing the culprit did was rig up some traps and waited for the people to fall into them and faked his own death, he basically relied on a large gamble (roullette, anyone?).

Anyways, what you just said, Smeckle and TehC, basically brings back the whole problem with BATTLER not seeing Erika's murdering of the First Twilight victims. If he's the GM, why wasn't he able to see that? I think someone wrote the story while he wasn't looking, someone with as much power as he has, and I can only think of two other people other than Beatrice who has that much power. And I sware, they are some dirty- @$$ cheaters.

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester

Well, I remember in And Then There Were None the people simply played into the culprit's hands. Pretty much, the only thing the culprit did was rig up some traps and waited for the people to fall into them and faked his own death, he basically relied on a large gamble (roullette, anyone?).

Anyways, what you just said, Smeckle and TehC, basically brings back the whole problem with BATTLER not seeing Erika's murdering of the First Twilight victims. If he's the GM, why wasn't he able to see that? I think someone wrote the story while he wasn't looking, someone with as much power as he has, and I can only think of two other people other than Beatrice who has that much power. And I sware, they are some dirty- @$$ cheaters.

Well... The TIPS in EP6 say that by reaching the truth, Battler has arrived at a level that's above everyone else involved in the game. I'm not sure how this would mechanically work, exactly, but what if the game master wasn't Meta-Battler, but a Meta-Meta-Battler who was deliberately writing himself as incompetent?

[ErenselTheJester]

So there would be a world beyond the meta- world? Still, that doesn't answer my question. I'm sure he should have been able to see everything and no one else should have been able to rewrite the story. So that means that there is someone with as much or even more power than he has.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester

So there would be a world beyond the meta- world? Still, that doesn't answer my question. I'm sure he should have been able to see everything and no one else should have been able to rewrite the story. So that means that there is someone with as much or even more power than he has.

There are two explanations for this other than "Battler is just incompetent after all, sorry." At least that I know of:

1) Genius Battler - Battler was in fact aware of what Erika was doing and pretended he was caught by it as part of a conscious and deliberate effort to endanger his own existence so that Beatrice would reawaken and save him. He trolled the trolls, basically.

2) Author Theory - Dawn of the Golden Witch was written in some fashion by some author and through some kind of writer/reader interaction (which I won't go into all the possible permutations of at this time), Meta-Battler was "established" as incompetent for the purposes of the author's needs. This sounds completely moronic in short form but it sort of works, trust me.

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by Renall

There are two explanations for this other than "Battler is just incompetent after all, sorry." At least that I know of:

1) Genius Battler - Battler was in fact aware of what Erika was doing and pretended he was caught by it as part of a conscious and deliberate effort to endanger his own existence so that Beatrice would reawaken and save him. He trolled the trolls, basically.

2) Author Theory - Dawn of the Golden Witch was written in some fashion by some author and through some kind of writer/reader interaction (which I won't go into all the possible permutations of at this time), Meta-Battler was "established" as incompetent for the purposes of the author's needs. This sounds completely moronic in short form but it sort of works, trust me.

A blend of those works pretty well too, which is kind of what I was getting at. There's some kind of mechanism in the setting for characters somehow getting up into higher fiction layers than they started in. Battler already did that once by becoming Meta-Battler at the end of EP1, but when he solved the mystery he supposedly did it again. So in theory, he could have become an author of the fiction containing his meta-self in the same way his meta-self gained control of his piece self. From that higher position he'd be able to see what Erika was trying to do and manipulate her easily.

Spoiler for Rambling about elevating pieces:

Suppose you have a sequence of nested fictions 1, 2, ..., N, where 1 is the top level reality and N is the bottom level. Then we can define:

Piece: anyone who resides at a level deeper than 1.
Author/witch: someone at a level K < N who can write in level K + 1.

Authors at level K have control over the pieces in level K + 1. Since that includes any authors in level K + 1, authors in K can cause level K + 1 authors to write in K + 2, causing K + 2 authors to write in K + 3, and so on all the way to the bottom. Because of that, authors can indirectly influence any piece deeper than themselves, and even project themselves into a deeper level as a new piece.

There's normally no way for a piece in K to project themselves in the other direction to reach a higher level J < K. However, nothing stops an author in I < J < K from taking the piece in K and copying it into J, creating a meta-version of it. So a piece actually can move upward if they are "recognized by a higher-order witch". That's happened at least three times that we know for sure (Meta-Beatrice by Lambda, Ange by Bernkastel, and Erika by Bernkastel).

So one way that things could have gone is this:

1. The fictional legend of Beatrice is born, somewhere in the metastructure.
2. Lambda discovers the legend and elevates Beatrice to Beatrice^2.
3. Beatrice^2 challenges Battler to solve her mystery, creating Battler^1 and Beatrice^1.
4. Bern elevates Ange to Ange^1 with Lambda's permission.
5. Ange^1 reveals her name and is destroyed.
6. Beatrice^2 gives up on Battler ever winning, and Lambda stops sponsoring her. Beatrice^2 and Beatrice^1 are destroyed.
7. Bern elevates Erika to Erika^1.
8. Battler^1 solves the mystery. Lambda elevates him to Battler^2.
9. Battler^2 creates Moetrice^1 based on Beatrice.
10. Erika^1 traps Battler^1 in a logic error, not realizing this was orchestrated by Battler^2.
11. Moetrice^1 rescues Battler^1 and destroys Erika^1.
12. Moetrice^1 and Battler^1 live happily ever after.

Alternately, Lambda could have just created both Beatrice^1 and Battler^1, putting them on a more even level with each other, and the rest of it would be the same. I'm not sure which version would work better. On the one hand, if Beatrice^2 was Battler^1's author, she could have just written him doing whatever she wanted to make herself happy. On the other hand, the space where the early ??? tea parties took place was vaguely suggested to be on a level higher than the main tea parties.

[Renall]

That's sort of the easy explanation (well, in a manner of speaking) since those are minor shifts up and down and don't contradict before Chiru. But then we wind up with things like Featherine/Tohya and Ange/ANGE, which level of which is where there, Chick-Beato appearing in their layer (albeit with the aid and blessing of Featherine and Virgilia, apparently), where MARIA and Erika are fighting over the candy trick, and other stuff. If nothing else, it suggests to me that the highest-order layer Bern/Lambda/Battler/Beatrice exist on may be several notches up the ladder, and that ANGE was elevated again, but possibly not to a higher layer than them even so... well, it's confusing.

[Aspirety]

It makes it easier to understand, but who's to say it's the solid truth? There's a lot of ambiguity in Umineko. But then again, am I falling to the witch's illusion by accepting that ambiguity? Haha, it's such a mindf**k.

Also, there's the alternative way of viewing it... The 'logic error'. Despite what we would like to believe, Ryukishi isn't a god, and he can make mistakes. Is it possible he made a crucial mistake with Battler's position as game master, and it's just a big problem with no answer? I hate to consider it, but that is possible. D: