Penguin Drum - Episode 13 Discussion / Poll

[gumi]

That was my favourite episode after ep 9.

Is Sanetoshi some kind of God? Is he lonely in his "Heaven" because ordinary humans can't enter it and wants Momoka to live with him? That's the feeling I got at least.

[zeando]

Originally Posted by YayPepsi

Here's something from the Bible..

Basically it's a long version of the saying "the sins of the father will be revisited upon the son."

basically yes, if you ignore this:

Footnotes
[1] 34:7 Or to the thousandth generation

so no, it says: bad deeds get remembered for 3-4 generations, good ones don't get forgotten for 1000 generations :| (remember bible and other texts are traslated from old hebrew, so you can't take literally the translation if you don't fully know the original meaning)

but... why there is a religion talk here?

i know in this episode there where some elements which suggested a relation
but i see the fate notion in this serie being used in different ways:
- a negative/restrictive one (used in shouma's monologues and in the first stalker ringo) being more similar to the deteministic version, than a religious one(at least christian's for what i understand)
- and a more positive version, aimed to make more easy to accept what happens(being bad or good) and to move on, which now ringo seems to be using

wonder if the gamedoor, and the direction simbol on the floor have some other meaning since they got showed again
and did someone noticed too there were train-rails in the library? (once momoka goes running with no shoes)

[Kirarakim]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

I'll stick to my guns on Ringo, because for her entire life she's felt the need to use the crutch of believing that her decisions were unimportant, that she was just following a chosen path. For most of that time it was the Momoko fantasy, and now - rather than try and face an uncertain future - she's transferred that faith to something else (Shouma). There's nothing wrong with faith or belief, but I think she's also afraid of anything she can't explain away.

I have to agree with Kazu on this and that line of Ringo's wasn't that she was not facing reality.

There is nothing wrong with Ringo thinking she met Shouma for a reason, that it was fate (Tabuki tells her the exact same thing).

The difference here is meeting Shouma is something about her and it is based in reality. It's not about living her sister's life. She met Shouma and he opened her eyes that what she is doing is wrong. Now maybe there is a reason that it happens to the son of the people who killed her sister.

And I think it was pretty clear from that scene that Ringo has changed for the better. Right now I think we will focus on helping the brothers. And I think Ringo will play a part in that (at least when it comes to Shouma).


I do agree with you that Himari has been more or a less a plot device though (she is slightly better developed in the novels, but that is for a different discussion).

[maplehurry]

Determinism is the logical conclusion of chasing after and believing in the laws of causality. One thing begets another; by understanding the cause, the reaction is elementary. Is there any happening or chance which the laws of cause and effect cannot summarize? What outcomes can rationality and the scope of human knowledge fail to know? Thus it is that people come to believe that the fate of the world is determined in the infinite, and accept the fact that human will and struggle will never amount to anything.

Well you forgot about God. If God exists, He may not be bounded by the law of causality.

[mark1246]

Does any one know if they read the novel? is there going to be action soon?

[Kirarakim]

Originally Posted by mark1246

Does any one know if they read the novel? is there going to be action soon?

The novel that is out only covers the 1st 9 episodes, so actually the anime is now ahead of the novels.

[PNGO]

Pretty slow episode, but still very interesting. Can't believe this is my favorite anime for this season lol I must be crazy.

[Forsaken_Infinity]

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

The novel that is out only covers the 1st 9 episodes, so actually the anime is now ahead of the novels.

Also, they are supposed to divert from each other already anyway!

[ele-ene-ene]

Himari's disease, which now appears also, curiously, is the same disease of Mario, is a problematic issue
Don't even have a name. On the other hand Sanetoshi medicine can return from death to Himari and presumably also to Mario, but can not do with Momoka yet is she who really cares…Is that disease will not be a farce?

On the question of "destiny", someone may think the future is written. But that does not necessarily simplify things, because there is no way of knowing with certainty that written fate. The fate of Ringo could be transformed into Momoka and keep their family together, or be herself and her parents rebuild their lives…Which is the correct written fate? And can there be more options, everything ends up being a matter of interpretation. To say that everything happens for something does not help much, for what is that something? A transcendent purpose? The only thing I can think of "transcendent" related to the series, is to acquire some kind of knowledge: the apple is the fruit of the tree of knowledge. It makes sense that Sanetoshi is in the pursuit of Knowledge because he is a librarian. Putting the Princess of Crystal and the Prince of the Crown to compete for their lives, to test the fate that brought them together from here Sanetoshi can get some light on the nature of destiny. There are old stories that have something like the tragedy of Oedipus, who killed his father and married his mother (as was predestined) precisely because the provisions were taken to try to avoid that written fate.

[Sackett]

Originally Posted by Nina.Wolken

Of course people would treat them differently after the case broke. But being ostracized for a time because your parents are terrorists have nothing to do with a girl who dies of a long term disease.

Since common sense doesn't work to explain that reasoning, maybe it's religious.
But is there any religion out there who teach that Fate (clearly, God) makes you pay of your life for your parents crime if those are terrible enough? I've been raised in a Christian family and never heard of such things.
Whatever the brothers believe in, I'm glad I'm not sharing their views. Looks pretty messed up to me...and then I remember Kanba is working hand in hand with the group his parents belonged too. Organization which launch terrorist attack in the metro in 95 ->Aum Shinrikyo->sect 'orz No wonder...

"The sins of the parents are visited upon the children unto the third and fourth generations."

The idea of inter-generational punishment for sin is a very old idea, and certainly has been all over the place. The Original Sin of Adam has some elements of this, although there are certainly a large number of Christians who would see it otherwise.

In fact the Bible repeatedly teaches against this in the Old Testament:

Deuteronomy 24:16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

2 Kings 14:6 But the children of the murderers he slew not: according unto that which is written in the book of the law of Moses, wherein the LORD commanded, saying, The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, nor the children be put to death for the fathers; but every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

Jeremiah 31:29-30 In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge. But every one shall die for his own iniquity.

Ezekiel18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

The reason the Bible repeats this over and over is because it was actually a rather novel idea.

Often people today think of the Law of Moses as this fierce unenlightened law, but in truth it was a huge improvement over the common laws of the day.

Originally Posted by maplehurry

Well you forgot about God. If God exists, He may not be bounded by the law of causality.

IE What we learned from Madoka Magica.

[shmaster]

BTW, who here believes that Takagura parents are innocent? Sanetoshi presented the evidence. That photo where the Takagura dad participated in a investigation team to the south pole.
If that photo is referencing to a certain real life expedition team from Japan:
http://ci.nii.ac.jp/naid/110000206110
Then the Takagura dad couldn't be the culprit of the sarin gas attack. As all member of the investigation team was away from Japan since 1994 and did not return until 1996. Takagura wouldn't be able to participate in something occurred in 1995.

Another interesting fact. Kanba is refereed to be the Scorpio. The said investigation team left Japan in 11/14/1994, which of within the month of Scorpio....

Finally, one more question. Why did Sanetoshi put the photo in the doctor's room? Why are the black rabbits in the doctor's room? And if Malie=Tagakura dad, and consider the black rabbit fooled Malie into getting punished by the goddess.... could this imply the doctor is the real culprit and Tagakura dad is just an innocent scape goat?

....I also got the feeling that Sanetoshi saving Himari out of ill intention. So that Kanba will also sign contract with the black rabbits, making the goddess even angrier and punishes him even more severely.

[ookamigirl]

Fate's payback to their family...
Finally, we get to know stuff about their past.
Kan is definitely smartest of the three.

[Kirarakim]

Originally Posted by shmaster

BTW, who here believes that Takagura parents are innocent? Sanetoshi presented the evidence. That photo where the Takagura dad participated in a investigation team to the south pole.
If that photo is referencing to a certain real life expedition team from Japan:
http://ci.nii.ac.jp/naid/110000206110
Then the Takagura dad couldn't be the culprit of the sarin gas attack. As all member of the investigation team was away from Japan since 1994 and did not return until 1996. Takagura wouldn't be able to participate in something occurred in 1995.

Another interesting fact. Kanba is refereed to be the Scorpio. The said investigation team left Japan in 11/14/1994, which of within the month of Scorpio....

Anything is possibly but there are a few problems with this. Was their mom there too? How were the twins born in 1995 if their father was away from 1994-1996?

Also the historical events do not have to match up exactly with the fictional ones, we already see this as the case with the Sarin Gas Attacks.

Not to mention if they were not guilty it would sort of negate a lot of the point of the story I think.

[zeando]

what if himari's illness was caused by the contact with little of the poison gas by accident?
that would be a practical example of the fault of the parents getting to their children, or a metaphor for the divine punishment

i'm still not sure of the takakuras being totally guilty, or they are but there will be the usual reason behind all to make them look less bad

[shmaster]

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

Anything is possibly but there are a few problems with this. Was their mom there too? How were the twins born in 1995 if their father was away from 1994-1996?

Also the historical events do not have to match up exactly with the fictional ones, we already see this as the case with the Sarin Gas Attacks.

Not to mention if they were not guilty it would sort of negate a lot of the point of the story I think.

Nothing was said on the mother. But if the mother is pregnant since late 1994, she still can give them birth in 1995.

[Kirarakim]

Originally Posted by shmaster

Nothing was said on the mother. But if the mother is pregnant since late 1994, she still can give them birth in 1995.

True I missed that the date was November 1994, so the babies could have been conceived before that.

But there are still other issues, if the father was away on this expedition then why not just say so? I don't see how you can frame someone if they have such a clear alibi.

Not to mention it is said the mother and father orchestrated the events not that they were actually there in person taking part in the events. So lets say for the sake of argument that the father was away, he could still have planned what happened.

Flashback also clearly shows the father orchestrating the event. Granted it is Shouma telling the story, but this is stuff he couldn't possibly know so my only guess is it is a true flashback. (unless he is revealing what he heard).


Not that I think the parents being innocent is completely impossible but I think it would be a bit of a cop out if Sanetoshi is behind everything in the story.


edit: There certainly might be more to the whole thing than we know right now though.

[shmaster]

I'll agree to that. But the show don't throw out references just because.
At this point, I couldn't see any other purpose that photo could serve outside being a alibi for Tagakura dad. But then, it is entirely possible I am thinking too much.

Though, I do have a feeling that Sanetoshi is behind most of the stuff, if not everything that is happening. At least, the story of Malie and the fact Sanetoshi being the master of the black rabbits, gave me the vibes that Sanetoshi purposefully pushed the Tagakura family into the depth of tragedy.

[Kaioshin Sama]

Great and solid start to the second half. A lot of things are starting to become clearer now as things start to tie together in what looks to be the key theme of the series. Fate/Destiny and whether it can be denied or not.

This episode further hammers in that everything ties back to the Takakura family parents and what they did all those years ago and how it seems to have set everyone involved on a collision course towards a cursed and unhappy fate where the most innocent of all plays the key victim. Ringo feels bound by fate to pick up where her sister left off, Shouma feels overwhelming guilt over what his parents did and like he's literally bound by the sins of the father, Himari seems somehow doomed to die as a result of whatever it was his parents actually did and Kanba...well it's still hard to tell with him, but needless to say the seeds that were planted at the start of the series seem to have started to bloom and have at least temporarily silenced the skeptic in me and allowed me to get into the vibe, style and pacing of the series at long last. This is what 2nd cours are for folks and why I continue to argue it should become the standard again like in the 90's, not the rare exception.

I'm also really starting to dig our mysterious lavender haired gentleman who appears to be another one of the Penguin Queens kind. I love his calm and cool demeanor and the philosophical way in which he phrases things, always with a faint hint of a smile and like he's still hiding something. He's saved Himari, but is he truly friend or foe and what does that mean for the Penguin Queen who is finally starting to show signs of a personality and character of her own that exists outside of stock footage. Also, when he comes asking for that payment what's going to happen. Very intriguing addition to the cast.

So yeah, probably my favorite episode in a while. Don't think I have much else to add.

[gumi]

Spoiler for episode 14:

omfg!!!! Yuri!!!!!!!!!!

[Kazu-kun]

What a fucking cliffhanger. I just hope against hope it won't happen somehow. I don't know how, but someone stop it, please!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

EDIT: ah, and to anyone thinking that

Spoiler:

Yuri raping Ringo is yuri... well, it isn't. Yuri is heavily implied to be a hermaphrodite, so it isn't yuri, but futanari

Just wanted to make that clear because I know some

Spoiler:

yuri fanboy/girls are going to welcome this shit thinking it's yuri

and just thinking about it makes me sick!