Code Geass (Generic discussion thread)

[NoLongerSane]

Originally Posted by Betteroffer

Who knows, Gino might even get a consistant personality (stranger things have happened).

Lol at this quote. Who knows, maybe will get some more screen time with Monica, Dorothea, and especially Nonnette. Two are feed to Suzaku to show how overpowed the upgraded Lancelot is and the last one mentioned just ups and vanishes.

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by Wargumm1i

But according too Director Goro Taniguchi states that it's up to the viewers to decide how they want to interpret the ending, but that he himself likes to see it as a happy ending. Writer Ichirō Ōkouchi agrees, saying that while some may regard Lelouch's end as a tragedy, he too likes to think of the ending as a happy one because Lelouch created a better tomorrow for those left behind.

He considers that a "happy" ending?

...I've seen happier.

[NoLongerSane]

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

He considers that a "happy" ending?

...I've seen happier.

Well, you have to consider the end result as a "happy ending." The way it was attained is something different.

[FerrisWheel]

^^^ Amen to that Nobodyman.

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by NoLongerSane

Well, you have to consider the end result as a "happy ending." The way it was attained is something different.

Well, that's the whole thing. Code Geass is not a happy story, thus I don't think it can truly have a happy ending. Not when Euphie, Shirley and many others died and countless other lives were ruined. Yes, perhaps the end result is good, what with the world becoming a better place than what it was (of course one could argue the moral implications of how it was achieved) but there sure as hell were a lot of heavy prices to pay along the way.

[NoLongerSane]

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

Well, that's the whole thing. Code Geass is not a happy story, thus I don't think it can truly have a happy ending. Not when Euphie, Shirley and many others died and countless other lives were ruined. Yes, perhaps the end result is good, what with the world becoming a better place than what it was (of course one could argue the moral implications of how it was achieved) but there sure as hell were a lot of heavy prices to pay along the way.

Very true. Shirley died because Lelouch kept that obsessive person with him in order to use him to full extent. That was a very heavy price to pay. Euphie was very tragic because Lelouch was careless with his geass. It ended up having Euphie soil her name and personality. Not only that, but Lelouch was the one that had to take her life.

[Sailor C.C]

yeah, when Lelouch had to kill Euphe, it was really sad. The whole Rolo killing Shirley wasn't much of a surprise to me, when Shirley's dad died, I knew that the Fenette family was screwed. But in the end Code Geass had a happy, yet sad ending. The future was great, but at what cost?

[Betteroffer]

Originally Posted by Wargumm1i

But according too Director Goro Taniguchi states that it's up to the viewers to decide how they want to interpret the ending, but that he himself likes to see it as a happy ending. Writer Ichirō Ōkouchi agrees, saying that while some may regard Lelouch's end as a tragedy, he too likes to think of the ending as a happy one because Lelouch created a better tomorrow for those left behind.

I have heard this before...doesn't this mean that Zero Requiem was a failure then? It's primary purpose was for Lelouch and Suzaku to punish themselves, but Lelouch died in Nunally's arms and according to the new epilogue bit from C.C. in the ZR edition, Lelouch died experiencing a profound sense of happiness and fulfillment.

The very idea that he has given anyone a better tomorrow let alone those he cares about is contradictory to anything even approaching reality. ZR's premise was "Kill anything that gets in the way of satisfying my ego."

Suzaku is left with a Fate Worse Than Death.

Nunally is being shadowed by her brother's killer who also happens to be the only boy she ever loved who will never be WITH her, yet will always be AROUND her and she must now rule half the world in the wake of horrendous war, opression, and an economc devastation of biblical proportions. All this while believing her brother was a good person and having to endure others calling him a sadistic butcher.

C.C. has lost the only person who came to genuinely care about her, even after seeing her true nature, and her face is probably in the history books as the Demon Emperor's consort/helper, so now the whole world really will hate her.

Shirley is dead, and if we are to believe her poem, 'realized' that while Lelouch cared for her, it wasn't in the way she wanted him to.

Kallen has watched someone she loved more than her brother, mother, friends, and country COMBINED kill himself in a way that will never let her mourn him and indeed forces her to curse his name in order to honor him, all while devoting the rest of her life to juggling caring for an invalid (probably braindamaged) woman with no trained help and minimal (if any) income with her studies among people whose very way of life she has been opposing for half of her life.

The Ashford crew are in the dark about ZR, believing their close friend was a psycho.

Jeremiah is certainly wanted for crimes against humanity.

The world has no reason to trust ZeroZaku, or Britannia, and has lost 70% of a resource that was used in nearly every facet of its technology.

How is this anything other than a Downer Ending? Is happy music really that powerful?

[Rising Dragon]

I don't ever recall Taniguchi ever saying he thought it was a happy ending. What I do recall is him saying he thought it was good ending. And that we, as viewers, can interpret whether or not it was a good ending.

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by Sailor C.C

yeah, when Lelouch had to kill Euphe, it was really sad. The whole Rolo killing Shirley wasn't much of a surprise to me, when Shirley's dad died, I knew that the Fenette family was screwed. But in the end Code Geass had a happy, yet sad ending. The future was great, but at what cost?

That's what we call a bittersweet ending. Code Geass had, at the very least, a bittersweet ending.

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

I don't ever recall Taniguchi ever saying he thought it was a happy ending. What I do recall is him saying he thought it was good ending. And that we, as viewers, can interpret whether or not it was a good ending.

That sounds more reasonable.

[darthfury78]

Originally Posted by NoLongerSane

I remember that, but I was under the impression that the relationship was suppose to be a big sister looking after her younger brother type of relationship.

It was true that there was to have been a greater focus on the development of the relationship between Suzaku x Cecil, which might have been more than just "friends". Cecil sees Suzaku as someone who reminds her of the man she had lost in battle in one of the last Picture Dramas. Thus, in the aftermath of Euphemia's death, that might have paved the way for a Cecil x Suzaku relationship on a romantic level. Instead, that possible relationship was replaced with Gino's friendship.

Cecil never saw Suzaku as a little brother. Far from it. Anytime when a woman sees a man who reminds her of a past lover, than that means that she sees that person as more than just a friend. And Suzaku might have fell in that category. Too bad that it was never realized in the second season.

[darthfury78]

Originally Posted by Betteroffer

I have heard this before...doesn't this mean that Zero Requiem was a failure then? It's primary purpose was for Lelouch and Suzaku to punish themselves, but Lelouch died in Nunally's arms and according to the new epilogue bit from C.C. in the ZR edition, Lelouch died experiencing a profound sense of happiness and fulfillment.

The very idea that he has given anyone a better tomorrow let alone those he cares about is contradictory to anything even approaching reality. ZR's premise was "Kill anything that gets in the way of satisfying my ego."

Suzaku is left with a Fate Worse Than Death.

Nunally is being shadowed by her brother's killer who also happens to be the only boy she ever loved who will never be WITH her, yet will always be AROUND her and she must now rule half the world in the wake of horrendous war, opression, and an economc devastation of biblical proportions. All this while believing her brother was a good person and having to endure others calling him a sadistic butcher.

C.C. has lost the only person who came to genuinely care about her, even after seeing her true nature, and her face is probably in the history books as the Demon Emperor's consort/helper, so now the whole world really will hate her.

Shirley is dead, and if we are to believe her poem, 'realized' that while Lelouch cared for her, it wasn't in the way she wanted him to.

Kallen has watched someone she loved more than her brother, mother, friends, and country COMBINED kill himself in a way that will never let her mourn him and indeed forces her to curse his name in order to honor him, all while devoting the rest of her life to juggling caring for an invalid (probably braindamaged) woman with no trained help and minimal (if any) income with her studies among people whose very way of life she has been opposing for half of her life.

The Ashford crew are in the dark about ZR, believing their close friend was a psycho.

Jeremiah is certainly wanted for crimes against humanity.

The world has no reason to trust ZeroZaku, or Britannia, and has lost 70% of a resource that was used in nearly every facet of its technology.

How is this anything other than a Downer Ending? Is happy music really that powerful?

I guess it's safe to say that this version of Code Geass R2 is now over because it can't continue from that standpoint. The Zero Requiem is a situation , as we had witnessed, a person who goes to the extreme to acquire a goal without reason. Since this pact was created to honor Shirley x Nunnally, I don't think that either of them would have wanted this. Once Nunnally was safe and sound, even she could not stop Lelouch from acheiving his suicide wish.

I still think that the ZR was the biggest bullshit event that I have ever seen. This was no happy ending, in my opinion. It was conceived to put Code Geass to a complete stop. This is what the creators had hoped for because all of these endless debates would eventually force Sunrise hand. Thus, if Sunrise gives the greenlight to do another Code Geass series, Taniguchi will undoubtly re-make the entire second season of Code Geass R2 with a different ending, if he wish to continue the storyline, from an alternate universe perspective.

[NoLongerSane]

Originally Posted by darthfury78

It was true that there was to have been a greater focus on the development of the relationship between Suzaku x Cecil, which might have been more than just "friends". Cecil sees Suzaku as someone who reminds her of the man she had lost in battle in one of the last Picture Dramas. Thus, in the aftermath of Euphemia's death, that might have paved the way for a Cecil x Suzaku relationship on a romantic level. Instead, that possible relationship was replaced with Gino's friendship.

Cecil never saw Suzaku as a little brother. Far from it. Anytime when a woman sees a man who reminds her of a past lover, than that means that she sees that person as more than just a friend. And Suzaku might have fell in that category. Too bad that it was never realized in the second season.

That would have been something very interesting to watch. Plus even though Cecil was not one of the main players, the anime did manage to put her in some very sexy outfits.

[Revolutionist]

Jeremiah wanted for war crimes? Those were probably blamed on Lelouch, who "geassed" Orange into service >_> .

Those retards like Ougi don't know crap about Geass, any story would fly with them. It wouldn't even occur to them that Jeremiah acted out of his own free will, 200% loyalty + 100% concentrate.

Besides, what would they do, arrest him? Lol.

[Rising Dragon]

... actually, considering that Rakshata was likely the one to repair him, its quite possible they'd be able to arrest him using a Gefun Disturber trap, like Lelouch did before. She'd likely know; she's got background in medical technology, and created the Disturber tech, which means she'd definitely be able to figure out how he was damaged and how to fix him.

[Xander]

Originally Posted by Betteroffer

I have heard this before...doesn't this mean that Zero Requiem was a failure then? It's primary purpose was for Lelouch and Suzaku to punish themselves, but Lelouch died in Nunally's arms and according to the new epilogue bit from C.C. in the ZR edition, Lelouch died experiencing a profound sense of happiness and fulfillment.

It's a bittersweet ending. There's both happiness and sadness involved, sure, as well as numerous alternative interpretations about how either emotion impacts each individual.

A lot depends on what degree of cynicism you want to adopt when analyzing what is essentially a sci-fi / fantasy cartoon primarily aimed at teenagers. Not a literary work meant for normal adults and overly skeptic critics. Extreme deconstruction can destroy almost anything but also tends to miss the point of the story.

There's probably some rhetorical exaggeration there too. C.C. is talking about someone she admired, understood and loved, but she is not a replacement for Lelouch himself. He was apparently happy to die while creating a new status quo for the world, because he didn't want to die without accomplishing something, but let us not forget that also included denying himself the ability to live in said world as punishment. His reputation will also be forever negative.

The very idea that he has given anyone a better tomorrow let alone those he cares about is contradictory to anything even approaching reality.

Reality is not relevant to Code Geass (or most anime) except in a transitory and selective fashion.

Suzaku is left with a Fate Worse Than Death.

He actually wanted to die and may think this was a fitting alternative instead. It's still punishment but turns his desire for death around into an obligation to live for something, ridiculously idealistic or not.

Nunally is being shadowed by her brother's killer who also happens to be the only boy she ever loved who will never be WITH her, yet will always be AROUND her and she must now rule half the world in the wake of horrendous war, opression, and an economc devastation of biblical proportions. All this while believing her brother was a good person and having to endure others calling him a sadistic butcher.

I would say her reaction to his death says enough. That she has been able to accept his death months after the fact doesn't mean a part of her isn't hurting inside too. You may think that's unbearable, but there are human beings who have survived far worse (see the horrors of WWII and how much Europe was ruined by them). One fictional character could easily do the same.

C.C. has lost the only person who came to genuinely care about her, even after seeing her true nature, and her face is probably in the history books as the Demon Emperor's consort/helper, so now the whole world really will hate her.

That would be the pessimistic point of view, but C.C. seems to be going with the optimistic approach for now.

Even without having him around, which should definitely create a big hole in her heart, C.C. was already starting to appreciate life once again even before Lelouch's death. The fact that he died doesn't change what he made her realize. It's not like this was fully spelled out by the show, but there are signs of that logic being implemented.

The world has no reason to trust ZeroZaku, or Britannia, and has lost 70% of a resource that was used in nearly every facet of its technology.

The world isn't a single entity but, even if it were, there isn't a need for it to be as cynical as either of us could be if we wanted to push the issue to its logical extreme (instead of a less logical and/or at least less extreme outcome).

[Bloodseeker]

More like they went with the cliched ending (in stories that don't feel like they're aimed almost completely at tweens, don't involve super-powered kung fu, and where the protagonist isn't the rightful heir to the thrown (or really close friends with the heir), the rebel protagonist that leads the fight against the superpower against all odds usually dies; same thing with inherently good natured anti-heroes that do a lot of morally ambiguous things; I was calling it right at the beginning and hoping that they wouldn't go for it throughout; you can probably find a post or two of mine like that here; I would have been surprised if Lelouch had lived) and forgot what kind of story elements usually help to make said endings bittersweet rather than just downers.

Its not much of a happy ending when most of your favorites are either dead or have become so meh that you just don't care about them anymore (by the time the last episode rolled around, out of the still-living cast, I liked CC (who didn't really get a happy ending despite living, unless season 3 reveals that Lelouch lives), Jeremiah, and Tamaki; most of the rest could have died without me mourning them even a little, though a few might have had me mourning what used to be a character that I liked), and where the characters that needed to die didn't. (Nina, Ougi, and Suzaku; Rolo died, but he got a heroic death, so that negates some of the potential awesome that could have been had if he died with a scene that was obviously supposed to evoke a "FUCK YEAH, GOOD RIDDANCE" reaction from the audience like the piece of garbage that he was)

[Bloodseeker]

You know, Code Geass R2 really was a master at making me feel the exact opposite of what they wanted me to. Its an awkward feeling when the show is trying to get you to feel one thing and you're feeling the exact opposite.

Spoiler for Kallen makes her big entrance, kills Valkyrie Squad:

;_;

Give me back my superior busty potential fanservice pilot, Kallen.

Spoiler for Nunally 'dies':

PLEASESTAYDEADPLEASESTAYDEADPLEASESTAYDEAD

Spoiler for Rolo dies:

Good riddance, you petty little shit.

Spoiler for MOTHERFUCKING DEMOCRACY:

MONICA! She was so cute. ;_;

Fuck you for being an inferior usage of Yuko Goto's voice, Anya.

Bismark, you were a badass and the last villain on this show that I could take seriously. You deserved to go out better than that.

Spoiler for Nunally lives:

GODDAMMIT.

Spoiler for Nunally gets thrown out of her wheelchair:

XFD

This makes Nunally coming back completely worth it. 10/10, one of the few redeeming qualities of the last 3 episodes.

Spoiler for Suzaku spares every named character that he faces in the final battle:

Guess that I should have expected him to spare Todo, Chiba, and Gino, but he could have at least made up for his previous failure by killing off some of these useless characters. At least Tamaki lives. :/

Spoiler for Lelouch dies:

Wow, what a surprise.

I know that I should be sad that one of my favorite characters is dead and all, but I'm just too fed up with this show to care.

[Nobodyman9]

^LOL, I love cynical bastards like you Bloodseeker

(No really, I sincerely mean that)

[NoLongerSane]

Originally Posted by Bloodseeker

You know, Code Geass R2 really was a master at making me feel the exact opposite of what they wanted me to. Its an awkward feeling when the show is trying to get you to feel one thing and you're feeling the exact opposite.

Spoiler for Kallen makes her big entrance, kills Valkyrie Squad:

;_;

Give me back my superior busty potential fanservice pilot, Kallen.

Spoiler for Nunally 'dies':

PLEASESTAYDEADPLEASESTAYDEADPLEASESTAYDEAD

Spoiler for Rolo dies:

Good riddance, you petty little shit.

Spoiler for MOTHERFUCKING DEMOCRACY:

MONICA! She was so cute. ;_;

Fuck you for being an inferior usage of Yuko Goto's voice, Anya.

Bismark, you were a badass and the last villain on this show that I could take seriously. You deserved to go out better than that.

Spoiler for Nunally lives:

GODDAMMIT.

Spoiler for Nunally gets thrown out of her wheelchair:

XFD

This makes Nunally coming back completely worth it. 10/10, one of the few redeeming qualities of the last 3 episodes.

Spoiler for Suzaku spares every named character that he faces in the final battle:

Guess that I should have expected him to spare Todo, Chiba, and Gino, but he could have at least made up for his previous failure by killing off some of these useless characters. At least Tamaki lives. :/

Spoiler for Lelouch dies:

Wow, what a surprise.

I know that I should be sad that one of my favorite characters is dead and all, but I'm just too fed up with this show to care.

Lol, I still sense that you are holding back on some of your comments. As for the Valkyria Squad, they at least got a little bit of action before being fed to Kallen. Monica and Dorothea just showed up in their Knightmares and were immediatly fed to Suzaku without putting up a fight.