Code Geass R2 - Episode 25 Discussion / Poll [END]

[Dilla]

Originally Posted by Charred Knight

No one defected when that judgement was made, and if you blame Ougi for it you have to blame Todoh, and Xingke as well.

It's not like Ougi led the Black Knights with an iron fist. Hell Xingke was leading the Black Knights when the UFN joined.

But it was Ougi that put his trust in Schneizel first and made the deal. At least think to see if you have others option before putting you're trust in a politician that you don't know. Granted, Schneizel would have them Japan, after he dropped another FLEIJA bomb on it to instill fear, of course.

I already said I considered the BKs cannon fodder, irrelevent, except Kallen.

[npal]

Originally Posted by Charred Knight

What? You want Lelouch to execute the entire Black Knights? Including Todoh, and Kallen?

I am sick and tired of people blaiming Ougi for what the entire organization did. If you blame Ougi, you have to blame Kallen, and Todoh too.

Karen and Toudou are very different from Ougi. Ougi was essentially Zero's second-in-command since the beginning. It's very different being betrayed by members of the group, even powerful ones, and being betrayed by your second-in-command. Toudou is also different from Karen. Toudou is one of Zero's leaders, a very important one at that. His name not coming up is hardly because he's less of a traitor. People feel more offensed when a second-in-command betrays Zero than one of his later general. Karen did not betray Zero. Zero send her off with his own decision through lies. He could easily keep her on his side by telling her the truth. For his own reasons, he did not. You really can't consider Karen a traitor under any circumstances.

And as I said, that's my personal belief regarding traitors, you don't have to agree with it.

[Charred Knight]

Originally Posted by Dilla

But it was Ougi that put his trust in Schneizel first and made the deal. At least think to see if you have others option before putting you're trust in a politician that you don't know.

I already said I considered the BKs canon fodder.

For cannon fodder they sure put up one hell of a fight. Also considering that most of the cast was the Black Knights, I feel that would go against Code Geass.

Originally Posted by npal

Karen and Toudou are very different from Ougi. Ougi was essentially Zero's second-in-command since the beginning. It's very different being betrayed by members of the group, even powerful ones, and being betrayed by your second-in-command. Toudou is also different from Karen. Toudou is one of Zero's leaders, a very important one at that. His name not coming up is hardly because he's less of a traitor. People feel more offensed when a second-in-command betrays Zero than one of his later general. Karen did not betray Zero. Zero send her off with his own decision through lies. He could easily keep her on his side by telling her the truth. For his own reasons, he did not. You really can't consider Karen a traitor under any circumstances.

And as I said, that's my personal belief regarding traitors, you don't have to agree with it.

She fought Lelouch, she is a traitor.

The problem is that most anti-Ougi fans act like he was the only one who betrayed Lelouch when they all did.

[KrimzonStriker]

Originally Posted by Charred Knight

For cannon fodder they sure put up one hell of a fight. Also considering that most of the cast was the Black Knights, I feel that would go against Code Geass.

Meh, they lost in the end, lost to Lelouch in more way then one I might add

Given the whole direction taken with Zero Requiem and the end I would agree with you, they became the more in-depth demonstration of the result of Zero Requiem more then anything else towards the finale. They still lost though BTW

[Charred Knight]

Originally Posted by KrimzonStriker

Meh, they lost in the end, lost to Lelouch in more way then one I might add

Given the whole direction taken with Zero Requiem and the end I would agree with you, they became the more in-depth demonstration of the result of Zero Requiem more then anything else towards the finale. They still lost though BTW

That was the whole point.

Lelouch who believed that the strong must not take advantage of the weak, must defeat the weak for his plans to work.

Why do you think his final opponet was a cripple?

[npal]

Originally Posted by Charred Knight

She fought Lelouch, she is a traitor.

The problem is that most anti-Ougi fans act like he was the only one who betrayed Lelouch when they all did.

I guess our definition of what consitutes treason differ. I'll just point out that Ougi completely lost his trust with the first wave of psychological assault. Karen stood besides Zero and defended him to her comrades even at gunpoint before Zero himself told her off. Karen was ready to believe his word, the rest wouldn't have it. It's the level of trust she put on Zero that distinguishes her from the rest (and Ougi) in my eyes. After that, it's just personal preference.

About the rest, I don't disagree, however Ougi IS still the most prominent figure besides Zero in the BK chain of command.

[tzia_n]

i have to side with Charred on the Ougi debate. frankly speaking he's hardly evil. anyone placed in his position would freak upon learning of the geass. accuse him of being incapable of leading, sure i'll agree, but as character, he did what he thought best. there wasn't malice in his fighting against lelouch. he simply saw geass as an evil.

and the only reason kallen stood her ground at first was because she already knew of the geass. way back in s1 she also freaked and also betrayed lelouch. frankly speaking kallen deserves more hatred simply because she did it twice. come to think of it, im staring to dislike kallen more than ougi

well personally i don't like ougi simply because he's neither someone i want to be like nor is he someone i connect to, two things i find with a character i like

[KrimzonStriker]

Originally Posted by Charred Knight

That was the whole point.

Lelouch who believed that the strong must not take advantage of the weak, must defeat the weak for his plans to work.

Why do you think his final opponet was a cripple?

Ah, irony, it tastes all the sweeter when you also have reason to rejoice over the outcome.

Hey, I said I agreed with you, just wanted to point out they still lost is all, not even the power of Moe! and lolis can stand before Zero Requiem!!

[npal]

I'd hardly consider what Karen did in S1 to be on the same level of the BKs' betrayal towards Zero. That's confusion more than betrayal, Ougi and the rest on the other hand hardly strike me as confused. They ate everything Schneizer threw at them and retaliated without a second thought, only on the basis of Lelouch having a power that helped them time and time again.

But I'll agree about one thing, it's not just about Ougi, it just so happens that Ougi is in a very convienient post to be blamed for the whole group.

[Charred Knight]

Originally Posted by npal

I'd hardly consider what Karen did in S1 to be on the same level of the BKs' betrayal towards Zero. That's confusion more than betrayal, Ougi and the rest on the other hand hardly strike me as confused. They ate everything Schneizer threw at them and retaliated without a second thought, only on the basis of Lelouch having a power that helped them time and time again.

But I'll agree about one thing, it's not just about Ougi, it just so happens that Ougi is in a very convienient post to be blamed for the whole group.

It's also a power that Lelouch used to brainwash hundreds of people.

Which by the way we never saw happen to them.

With powers like that I am not staying near him. Only a nutjob would, and before KrimzonStriker states that I just called him a nutjob, I will point out that I don't think KrimzonStriker would join Lelouch.

[Dilla]

Originally Posted by npal

They ate everything Schneizer threw at them and retaliated without a second thought, only on the basis of Lelouch having a power that helped them time and time again.

But I'll agree about one thing, it's not just about Ougi, it just so happens that Ougi is in a very convienient post to be blamed for the whole group.

It was even that, Schneizel had evidence. It was the fact they automaticly deemed Schneizel trustworthy. "My enemy's enemy is still my enemy". This wasn't taken into consideration.

Ougi's mainly blamed(for me) becuase it's was him that threw the deal that Schneizel would give them Japan if Lelouch was killed, then believed he would do it no strings attached. He's the leader, be smarter than that.

[KrimzonStriker]

Originally Posted by npal

I'd hardly consider what Karen did in S1 to be on the same level of the BKs' betrayal towards Zero. That's confusion more than betrayal, Ougi and the rest on the other hand hardly strike me as confused. They ate everything Schneizer threw at them and retaliated without a second thought, only on the basis of Lelouch having a power that helped them time and time again.

But I'll agree about one thing, it's not just about Ougi, it just so happens that Ougi is in a very convienient post to be blamed for the whole group.

Well, for me personally, I just have a distaste for ignorance as much as knowing intentions when I analysis actions and their results. I mean, a suicide bomber thinks he's going to heaven and getting 1000 virgins from Allah for blowing up civilians, I'm still inclined to not feel much sympathy for him even if he is a bit deluded in my view. Same with how I looked on with distaste as Ougi and the Order cuddled up with Schneizel and much like Kallen said before she caved in didn't even try to go beyond the one-sided perspective on the matter. >_>

[Charred Knight]

Originally Posted by Dilla

It was even that, Schneizel had evidence. It was the fact they automaticly deemed Schneizel trustworthy. "My enemy's enemy is still my enemy". This wasn't taken into consideration.

Ougi's blamed becuase it's was him that threw the deal that Schneizel would give them Japan if Lelouch was killed, then believed he would do it no strings attached.

Ougi's plan only works if the rest of the Blakc Knights agree with him.

[Dilla]

^But it was Ougi's plan. I'm not saying the rest of the BKs aren't drones as well(they did, after all, let Ougi lead them), but as the leader of this takeover, he shoulders more responsibility, naturally.

[KrimzonStriker]

Originally Posted by Charred Knight

Ougi's plan only works if the rest of the Blakc Knights agree with him.

He did do a fair amount in getting them to agree with him though, was the first to really go along with the idea and was an extreme proponent if following through on it. Bottom line is he was the most active agent and thus provided the focal point, the face if you will, of the mutiny. Kind of like with a lot of figure-head and executive leaders basically

[Wintersun]

oh this episode was both, brilliant and the ending was very sad, i had tears in my eyes when lelouch died...

that song wich came at the end when lelouch dies, and kallen tells what has happened afterwards, has that one been released ? has anyone got it maybe ?

[iceyfw]

Originally Posted by Wintersun

that song wich came at the end when lelouch dies, and kallen tells what has happened afterwards, has that one been released ? has anyone got it maybe ?

the song is called "Continued Story" and it is on the Code Geass R2 Original Soundtrack 2.

[Wintersun]

Originally Posted by IcExAlcHeMy

the song is called "Continued Story" and it is on the Code Geass R2 Original Soundtrack 2.

many thanks =)

[Miraploy]

Well the main reason I dislike Ougi is how highly placed he is despite not demonstrating clear competence. I imagine a lot of fans would like Ougi a lot more if he 'kept to his station' and became a teacher again at the end instead of the freaking prime minister.

Simply put, people don't like characters who have undeserved fortunes, especially after a few egregious acts of folly.

[anyme]

Ougi's blamed because he is not a main character & he betrayed Lulu who is a main character in "Code Geass: Lelouch of the Rebellion".

Even Nunnally was hated by Lulu's fans when she allied with Schneizel.

It is hard to forgive non-main-character, it is easy to forgive main character's stupid-joke.