Shin Sekai Yori - Episode 24 Discussion / Poll

[ThereminVox]

I actually see a bit of a parallel between Kiroumaru's stated plans for WMDs and where he, Saki and Satorou find themselves right now. Kiroumaru claims (and we have little reason to disbelieve him now) that he was trying to create a MAD scenario between his tribe and the humans to prevent the Giant Hornets from ever being wiped out. The humans would still retain all of the power, since there's still no other way for bakenezumi to fight them, but the psychobuster would give the humans pause if they ever wanted to actually wipe out his tribe, because then Kiroumaru would have nothing to lose. As things currently stand, the Giant Hornets' very existence depends on the whims of a fickle and fearful tribe of mortal gods. The assurance of a future for the clan would probably be worth the lives of a great many scouts.

Interestingly enough, this is exactly the situation they find themselves in now: Yakomaru has them beaten. He holds all of the cards (or so he thinks), but he doesn't dare to actually finish them off because if he did, they would bring down the caves and kill him too.

[ChainLegacy]

Kiroumaru and Yakomaru DO have some pretty strong similarities, shown from this reveal. They're both willing to be dishonest and show loyalty to the humans while plotting in secret. The big difference between them is that Kiroumaru seems to value a peaceful status quo and Yakomaru is looking to carve out an empire of his own. Even then, we're giving Kiroumaru the benefit of the doubt in saying this - we don't know what his course of action would be if he had actually found WMDs when visiting.

The main differences lie in their personalities, I think. Yakomaru doesn't care for giving an air of chivalry and will do whatever it takes. Kiromaru does value these traits, but as a leader his loyalty was to his people above his loyalty to humanity, so he felt it was more 'noble,' if you will, to plot in secret. In both situations, I think humanity was asking for trouble with the way they lord over the rats. Yakomaru seems to be a Julius Ceasar of sorts; taking advantage of the hostile climate to propel himself into a position of prominence, but there's no denying that if you were in either colony, the humans must have seemed to be a huge threat to your well-being.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by ChainLegacy

Kiroumaru and Yakomaru DO have some pretty strong similarities, shown from this reveal. They're both willing to be dishonest and show loyalty to the humans while plotting in secret. The big difference between them is that Kiroumaru seems to value a peaceful status quo and Yakomaru is looking to carve out an empire of his own. Even then, we're giving Kiroumaru the benefit of the doubt in saying this - we don't know what his course of action would be if he had actually found WMDs when visiting.

The main differences lie in their personalities, I think. Yakomaru doesn't care for giving an air of chivalry and will do whatever it takes. Kiromaru does value these traits, but as a leader his loyalty was to his people above his loyalty to humanity, so he felt it was more 'noble,' if you will, to plot in secret. In both situations, I think humanity was asking for trouble with the way they lord over the rats. Yakomaru seems to be a Julius Ceasar of sorts; taking advantage of the hostile climate to propel himself into a position of prominence, but there's no denying that if you were in either colony, the humans must have seemed to be a huge threat to your well-being.

I completely agree with all of this. Some very good points.

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Your statement here is objectively false, since its false at even a definitional level. The fact that they both wanted a countermeasure against the humans is a similarity between the two of them. Period.

Like it or not, it makes them more similar.

Sounds a little pedantic to me. Both Kiroumaru and Squealer know how to speak human language as well. I guess they're two peas in a pod then, huh? The fact that they are dishonest when the situation calls for it is a shallow similarity considering how many circumstantial lies multiple characters have made in the series. Tomiko and the rest of the adults have kept their "aborting" of children for the sake of preventing another fiend fiasco from happening. All of Group 1 kept their knowledge of the falso minoshiro to themselves to keep themselves safe from the adults. The humans themselves have a division to annihilate queerrat colonies in secret when they deem it necessary.

Are you telling me every character in the series is the same just because they are capable of lying for their own self-interest?

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Kiroumaru himself lost many soldiers during his attempt to find WMDs in Tokyo. This is by his own account. So it's simply false to argue that Kiroumaru places the safety of his fellow man ahead of anything else. No, he doesn't.

His soldiers put their own lives on the line to protect Kiroumaru in the same way Inui died to protect Saki. Unless you are telling me Saki doesn't care about others either, you are wrong.

[SeijiSensei]

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

It's kind of disconcerting to see [Kiroumaru] running around like that, especially with the lack of any visible genitalia.

I have never understood Queerat reproduction at any time in this story. Despite them appearing to be mammals, they have "queens" and seemingly reproduce more like insects. We also had that scene of Saki in the lab with the immature rats, another theme that was immediately ignored once it was introduced. We were never told where they came from or why she was breeding them other than it was part of her job.

Originally Posted by creb

On a completely different note, how do humans use their Cantus to set things on fire?

I'll reiterate that I see little difference between psychokinesis as depicted in this story and magic. The same power used to move boulders somehow also causes living things to catch fire? Why? How? We're never told, so it just looks like magic.

The line between fantasy and science-fiction in most anime sci-fi always seems weak to me once you move beyond space operas. I had the same reaction to Noein despite its appeal to the "many-worlds" hypothesis of quantum theory.

[ThereminVox]

Originally Posted by ChainLegacy

Kiroumaru and Yakomaru DO have some pretty strong similarities, shown from this reveal. They're both willing to be dishonest and show loyalty to the humans while plotting in secret. The big difference between them is that Kiroumaru seems to value a peaceful status quo and Yakomaru is looking to carve out an empire of his own. Even then, we're giving Kiroumaru the benefit of the doubt in saying this - we don't know what his course of action would be if he had actually found WMDs when visiting.

Agreed, we can only take what Kiroumaru says at face value now that he's had plenty of opportunities to turn on the humans currently acting as his handlers. It's one thing to want to secure leverage for your people when there's such a gap in power between you and your masters. Waging a campaign of conquest and eradication against them is another thing entirely.

[Kanon]

Originally Posted by SeijiSensei

I'll reiterate that I see little difference between psychokinesis as depicted in this story and magic. The same power used to move boulders somehow also causes living things to catch fire? Why? How? We're never told, so it just looks like magic.

The line between fantasy and science-fiction in most anime sci-fi always seems weak to me once you move beyond space operas. I had the same reaction to Noein despite its appeal to the "many-worlds" hypothesis of quantum theory.

I simply assumed they have psychokinesis and pyrokinesis. I agree it looks more like magic though.

It's interesting to note Inui used the oil and fire from his lamp to scare off the weird creatures lurking in the caves two weeks ago. Couldn't he just lit them on fire with his mind?

[Cosmic Eagle]

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

Well, aside of the fact that he's a two-tongued, backstabbing, colony-destroying fiend... Kiroumaru calls Squealer a monster (note the irony) who, driven by his hunger for power has lost the essence of their kind: the instinct to live and work for one's colony. Hiding behind the name of democracy he's trying to grasp all the power until he becomes a dictator. Kiroumaru says that even under the rule of humans bakenezumi had been allowed to develop and nurture their own culture and customs, and follow their own way of life, and now Squealer is about to destroy it all with his new world order. Basically, Kiroumaru doesn't want to allow the existence of the kind of bakenezumi society that lobotomizes their mothers and turns them into slaves.

lol what irony...Kiroumaru is less monstrous than plenty of things in SSY

[Kirarakim]

Originally Posted by Triple R

"Well, we probably wouldn't have attacked you anyway, due to our low perceived chances of success". That was the jist of what he said.

And what makes you think he wasn't being honest here? Again Kiroumaru could still have lied and made something up. He wasn't caught in the act or anything.

And he told them when technically speaking if they get out of this situation, in the future he might still attack the humans if it comes to that.

How do you know that's nonsense? You don't know if that's nonsense or not. And you don't know that with only one episode left!

You don't see the irony of him talking about "human rights" when he lobotomizes his own queen. Certainly her rights did not matter.

I don't consider Yakomaru's reasoning to be "excuses". So no, I'm not wrong. Yakomaru and Kiroumaru were both providing explanations. But frankly, one explanation (Yakomaru's) had necessity on its side, while the other had (at best) paranoia or (at worst) very aggressive designs towards humans.

I don't see how you can say only Yakomaru's had necessity on his side. Kiroumaru was looking for the weapons in case his tribe was in danger. I don't see how that is not a necessity.

Yakomaru's reasoning might be a necessity as well but again he tried to butter it up to make what he did look more admirable than it was.

I did feel that his loyalty to humans was a big part of what made him different from Yakomaru. That's partly why I'm disappointed in this latest reveal about Kiroumaru.

I am not really sure why you think that makes them different. So what you are saying as long as Kiroumaru is loyal to humans even if it means he would betray his own kind that makes him different from Yakomaru.

No to me that would actually make him exactly the same as Yakomaru just that they are fighting on different sides. This episode showed why Yakomaru and Kiroumaru are completely different in personality.

How can you write this after how Kiroumaru presented himself to the humans back when they questioned both him and Yakomaru? Kiroumaru literally treated the humans like gods there, and he acted with complete deference and respect towards them there.

He clearly was not entirely sincere in what he said to the humans or he never would have went searching for WMDs.

Actually no I am not wrong, rewatch the episodes and see how Yakomaru would say things like "how the gods are above us", and "how dare they do that to the gods" "we would never lie to the gods".

Kiroumaru might have called the humans gods, might have shown them respect, but he never outright lied to them. Sure he was loyal to the humans as long as it was good for his tribe but he didn't purposely mislead them either. Kiroumaru's tribe was first to him that is all.

[hoofy]

Originally Posted by Kanon

It's interesting to note Inui used the oil and fire from his lamp to scare off the weird creatures lurking in the caves two weeks ago. Couldn't he just lit them on fire with his mind?

Perhaps since the fire was already available, he went the easier route to conserve his own brainpower?/concentration? so he wouldn't have to create it up himself.

[ChainLegacy]

Originally Posted by SeijiSensei

I have never understood Queerat reproduction at any time in this story. Despite them appearing to be mammals, they have "queens" and seemingly reproduce more like insects. We also had that scene of Saki in the lab with the immature rats, another theme that was immediately ignored once it was introduced. We were never told where they came from or why she was breeding them other than it was part of her job.



I'll reiterate that I see little difference between psychokinesis as depicted in this story and magic. The same power used to move boulders somehow also causes living things to catch fire? Why? How? We're never told, so it just looks like magic.

The line between fantasy and science-fiction in most anime sci-fi always seems weak to me once you move beyond space operas. I had the same reaction to Noein despite its appeal to the "many-worlds" hypothesis of quantum theory.

I'm kind of ambivalent about that scene in the lab. It felt like we'd soon get more information regarding the origin of the rats, but we never did (are they an experiment gone wrong? Mutated humans?). As it stands, it serves only to add more confusion than anything else.

As for the insect breeding scheme; I believe they are based on naked mole rats, which actually do breed that way. They're the only known mammals with this insect-like system... really fascinating creatures. (Also, regarding Kiroumaru's genitalia, there are many mammals that have reproductive organs retracted into the body until times of 'use...' humans are actually pretty unique in this regard.)

I would classify SSY as fantasy, most certainly. There's really nothing sci-fi about it, right from the beginning when people suddenly had these powers we were delving completely into fantasy territory... They just use the backdrop of the 'real world' having happened in the past, which is similar to many sci-fi stories.

[Kirarakim]

Telekinesis actually is an ability scene in science fiction but the terms fantasy and sci-fi are so arbitrary anyways why don't we just say speculative fiction.

[Dr. Casey]

Originally Posted by Repelsteeltju

Also blind presumptuous Yakomaru hate has gotten rather dull.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I think people here are far too quick to assume the absolute worst about Yakomaru, and assume the absolute best about Kiroumaru, for very little good reason. Like Repelsteeltju, I'm getting sick and tired of this frankly lazy character evaluation that completely lacks even a semblance of real nuance.

For my part (since I was the first to voice any anti-Yakomaru sentiments in this thread), I don't mean to strip any nuance from Yakomaru; he's certainly an intriguing, multi-layered character and a very threatening antagonist, the sort of villain that could spark some very interesting discussions. I admittedly have a vendetta against him, though, because promising to protect Maria and Mamoru when he never intended to do anything except murder them was such a shady, deceitful thing to do that, for all his complexities, it's hard not to think of him as just trash. I wouldn't mind if SSY took a page from the book of Bill & Ted's Bogus Journey and ended with Saki and Satoru playing a light game of basketball with Yakomaru's head.

[Kirarakim]

I also want to add I don't blindly hate Yakomaru. I think he is a fantastic character but I see him as villain and I don't agree with the defense of his character.

Now when I say he is a villain I don't think he is your mustache twirling one dimensional type. I do see him as more complex than that. I never bought that he was a "hero" to his people but I always thought he was intelligent and highly capable antagonist.

As for Kiroumaru he might have been the antagonist in another situation but his character type would still have made him an honorable one in my opinion.

[Repelsteeltju]

Originally Posted by ThereminVox

I actually see a bit of a parallel between Kiroumaru's stated plans for WMDs and where he, Saki and Satorou find themselves right now. Kiroumaru claims (and we have little reason to disbelieve him now) that he was trying to create a MAD scenario between his tribe and the humans to prevent the Giant Hornets from ever being wiped out.

Paraphrasing Kiroumaru's words from the UTW subs here: 'We came to Tokyo to find WoMD, with them we could have replaced humanity as the dominant species on the planet.' That doesn't sound like a MAD-scenario to me.

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

His soldiers put their own lives on the line to protect Kiroumaru in the same way Inui died to protect Saki. Unless you are telling me Saki doesn't care about others either, you are wrong.

In the discussion thread for the episode before this one, a few have argued that Saki was in fact being a leader by not rejecting feasible plans and that she deserved credit for those plans. Following that disagreeable but common argument Kiroumaru is responsible for accepting the strategy even if he himself did not propose it. What's you take on this line of reasoning?

Originally Posted by SeijiSensei

I have never understood Queerat reproduction at any time in this story. Despite them appearing to be mammals, they have "queens" and seemingly reproduce more like insects. We also had that scene of Saki in the lab with the immature rats, another theme that was immediately ignored once it was introduced. We were never told where they came from or why she was breeding them other than it was part of her job.

The lab-rats seemed fully grown to me. It weren't queerats but naked mole rats. In the series' lore they share a common ancestor with the queerats. In case you didn't know the more the (naked) mole rats are an existing species and they really reproduce like that. Look it up if you're interested in that sorta thing.

The same power used to move boulders somehow also causes living things to catch fire? Why? How? We're never told, so it just looks like magic.

I always assumed they just speed up the molecules in a certain area. If you want to compare it to magic, Harry Potter's take on magic works. In that there are some rules on what they can and can't do and that they need to know and have practiced a certain spell to be able to do it. If you pay attention the rules of the power are strange but consequently upheld and when they aren't some guy (or gal) who's read the novels descends down upon us to share the explanation the anime didn't have the time for.

Originally Posted by ThereminVox

Agreed, we can only take what Kiroumaru says at face value now that he's had plenty of opportunities to turn on the humans currently acting as his handlers. It's one thing to want to secure leverage for your people when there's such a gap in power between you and your masters. Waging a campaign of conquest and eradication against them is another thing entirely.

To me it looks more like Kiroumaru is Saki and Satoru's handler. He's the one coming up with all the plans, seeing through Yakomaru's moves and adjusting his team's movements accordingly. The best thing about all this is that their parties pretty evenly matched. (3 humans unable to kill other humans Kirou v. 50 some fully equipped queerrats, Yako and another human who is presumable unable to kill queerats)

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

And what makes you think he wasn't being honest here? Again Kiroumaru could still have lied and made something up. He wasn't caught in the act or anything.

He was presenting the facts more gracefully than they where so as not to offend or come across as hostile.

You don't see the irony of him talking about "human rights" when he lobotomizes his own queen. Certainly her rights did not matter.

Most societies --temporally-- revoke rights to those who infringe upon the rights of others. Killing all those who disagree with; you randomly killing whoever you please, whenever you please. Seems like a good enough reason to revoke some of her rights or for just lobbing her head off. But you know what? Killing her (jay for matricide) would lead another female to take up the dominant position assuming their reproductive hierarchies are similar to those of their naked mole rat ancestors. And being Queen means being a hormonal batshit insane bully to these creatures. Just some background info.

I don't see how you can say only Yakomaru's had necessity on his side. Kiroumaru was looking for the weapons in case his tribe was in danger. I don't see how that is not a necessity.

Kirou survived pretty good without the WoMD. Therefore they were not necessary.

I never bought that he was a "hero" to his people but I always thought he was intelligent and highly capable antagonist.

Really? Even after the dying rat Saki and friends interrogated and then killed called Yakomaru: 'the hero of liberation'?

Yakomaru's reasoning might be a necessity as well but again he tried to butter it up to make what he did look more admirable than it was.

I am not really sure why you think that makes them different. So what you are saying as long as Kiroumaru is loyal to humans even if it means he would betray his own kind that makes him different from Yakomaru.

No to me that would actually make him exactly the same as Yakomaru just that they are fighting on different sides. This episode showed why Yakomaru and Kiroumaru are completely different in personality.

Kiroumaru might have called the humans gods, might have shown them respect, but he never outright lied to them. Sure he was loyal to the humans as long as it was good for his tribe but he didn't purposely mislead them either. Kiroumaru's tribe was first to him that is all.

Yakomaru tends to set up things (idea's) greater than himself and revolves his arguments around them. Kiroumaru presents himself as consequent, dutiful, even somewhat charming and from there on presents his arguments as if they where facts. I like Yakomaru's style of arguing better because unlike Kiroumaru's it doesn't hinge on he himself being right or wrong.

[Kirarakim]

Really? Even after the dying rat Saki and friends interrogated and then killed called Yakomaru: 'the hero of liberation'?

Yes really, I am an outside observer not being manipulated by Yakomaru.

Yakomaru tends to set up things (idea's) greater than himself and revolves his arguments around them. Kiroumaru presents himself as consequent, dutiful, even somewhat charming and from there on presents his arguments as if they where facts. I like Yakomaru's style of arguing better because unlike Kiroumaru's it doesn't hinge on he himself being right or wrong.

Their differences don't just come down to their arguments.

Yakomaru didn't just act loyal he kowtowed and denied he was anything but.

Has Kiroumaru ever outright said I would never turn against the humans because I can't recall that?

Kiroumaru speaks matter of factly, Yakomaru manipulates.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by SeijiSensei

I'll reiterate that I see little difference between psychokinesis as depicted in this story and magic. The same power used to move boulders somehow also causes living things to catch fire? Why? How? We're never told, so it just looks like magic.

I don't think it's actually meant to be anything more than "magic" to begin with. From my impressions, since their cantus is a result of them extending their unconscious and concious thoughts, I've always assumed they were just reality warpers.

[kuromitsu]

Originally Posted by SeijiSensei

I have never understood Queerat reproduction at any time in this story. Despite them appearing to be mammals, they have "queens" and seemingly reproduce more like insects.

That's because they have naked mole rat ancestors, and naked mole rats have the same social structure, similar to ants or bees. There's a dominant female (called, in fact, a queen) that mates with a select number of males, the rest are workers.

Originally Posted by SeijiSensei

We also had that scene of Saki in the lab with the immature rats, another theme that was immediately ignored once it was introduced. We were never told where they came from or why she was breeding them other than it was part of her job.

Those weren't bakenezumi, they were naked mole rats. And breeding/observing them was part of her job because her job was essentially All Things Bakenezumi.

Originally Posted by SeijiSensei

I'll reiterate that I see little difference between psychokinesis as depicted in this story and magic. The same power used to move boulders somehow also causes living things to catch fire? Why? How? We're never told, so it just looks like magic.

In a way yes, it's like magic insofar as we have to accept that telekinesis is an existing thing, and also the stuff the author made up about it (such as poltergeist phenomenon happening mostly to children at the onset of puberty as an unconscious manifestation of mental/sexual energies, or something along those lines, I don't quite remember). But after that is established, there's a science behind it, vague as it may be. As for where it comes from and how it actually works, Satoru provides some possible explanations in his monologue in the snow hut (which the anime mostly cut, in the book he talks quite a lot). Of course, it helps that the author pretty much leaves it with "well one theory says this, another says that, who knows what the truth is..."

So yes, technically it may be more fantasy than hard sci-fi, but it's not treated as ~magic!~ (Also, don't forget that it's called "psychokinesis" but it's not really that - originally it was, but as the minoshiro library said, its scope extended hugely after a while.)

(As for Noein, by the way, I think it did the "many worlds theory" well? Obviously scientifically it was kind of sketchy, but it was never meant to be scientifically accurate, the many worlds theory was basically a backdrop to the main theme of the show, that is, "in such a world what defines a person?" And in this it was, I think, very effective.)

As for the Kiroumaru vs Squealer/Yakomaru debate, I can already see the battlefield here next week... In any case, I stand by what I said earlier: there are people who are just assholes, regardless of the circumstances, regardless of their goals. To me, Squealer is one of these people (bakenezumi). No doubt, he's a well-developed, very intriguing character - but that doesn't mean I have to like him.

Also, I still think most people are approaching them from the wrong POV - their differences lie in their worldview as bakenezumi, not in their relationship with humans.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

Sounds a little pedantic to me. Both Kiroumaru and Squealer know how to speak human language as well. I guess they're two peas in a pod then, huh?

Nobody said they're "two peas in a pod".

What some of us have pointed out is that there are notable similarities between Kiroumaru and Yakomaru. That doesn't mean they're "two peas in a pod", but it does mean that they're not complete opposites either.

The fact that they are dishonest when the situation calls for it is a shallow similarity considering how many circumstantial lies multiple characters have made in the series.

That's not the main similarity I was focusing on. The main similarity I was focusing on was both of them wanting to procure WMDs to use against humans. In my view, that's a very significant similarity. It shows that neither trusts humans much, and that neither can be fully trusted by humans.

In fact, it suggests that if circumstances were just slightly different, Kiroumaru could have conceivably been doing much the same thing as what Yakomaru is doing now - Using a WMD to indiscriminately kill humans and/or destroy their villages.

Are you telling me every character in the series is the same just because they are capable of lying for their own self-interest?

No, I'm not saying that. Why do you go for this false dichotomy of "not at all similar" and "everybody the same"? There's a middle ground between these two extremes, and I'm merely pointing to that middle ground.

His soldiers put their own lives on the line to protect Kiroumaru in the same way Inui died to protect Saki. Unless you are telling me Saki doesn't care about others either, you are wrong.

Where did I say that Kiroumaru "doesn't care about others" at all? I simply said that protecting others isn't Kiroumaru's top priority. And it isn't, or he wouldn't have taken the risks that he did, all for the sake of acquiring WMDs.

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

And what makes you think he wasn't being honest here?

I never said he was being dishonest. You can sweeten the truth without being dishonest. Contrary to popular belief, politicians do tell the truth sometimes. Sometimes they simply put the sweetest possible spin on the truth, but it's still not technically a lie.

You don't see the irony of him talking about "human rights" when he lobotomizes his own queen. Certainly her rights did not matter.

Your country and mine recognizes human rights. That doesn't mean we're going to stand by and do nothing if a person goes batshit insane and tries to kill people.

I don't see how you can say only Yakomaru's had necessity on his side. Kiroumaru was looking for the weapons in case his tribe was in danger. I don't see how that is not a necessity.

What indication was there that the humans had any intention of attacking Kiroumaru's tribe?

Be careful here - If your argument is that the humans were so arbitrary or whimsical in their decisions to wipe out Queerat tribes that they simply couldn't be trusted, then that adds a great deal of credibility to Yakomaru's actions as well.

I am not really sure why you think that makes them different. So what you are saying as long as Kiroumaru is loyal to humans even if it means he would betray his own kind that makes him different from Yakomaru.

He didn't have to betray his own kind in order to be loyal to humans. Or, to put it another way, he didn't have to be disloyal to humans in order to be faithful to his own kind. There's no indication that the two were in conflict.

Actually no I am not wrong, rewatch the episodes and see how Yakomaru would say things like "how the gods are above us", and "how dare they do that to the gods" "we would never lie to the gods".

Kiroumaru might have called the humans gods, might have shown them respect, but he never outright lied to them.

"What gall you have to lie in front of gods! Perhaps I should rip your filthy mouth open!" - Kiroumaru to Yakomaru, Episode 17

"I am deeply ashamed I could not do as promised." - Kiroumaru to Saki, Episode 17

Kiroumaru is clearly leading the humans to believe that he is entirely loyal to them. Look, that is deceitful on his part unless he really is entirely loyal to the humans.


To be fair, Yakomaru has definitely done some monstrous and horrible things. But now it sounds like Kiroumaru was at the very least contemplating the same. I think that Kiroumaru is somewhat more noble and trustworthy than Yakomaru, but I also think both men are hard-boiled pragmatists. It might be nice if Saki wasn't the only idealist in this work (especially since she's probably going to win in the end). Yakomaru will dress up his pragmatism in sugary language, and Kiroumaru will try to make his pragmatism sound "honourable" (and in Kiroumaru's case, I think he has himself convinced of it too), but both men are willing to crack a lot of eggs to make omelettes, if you catch my drift.

[Dawnstorm]

Originally Posted by Repelsteeltju

Isn't charging in and adapting excatly what Yakomaru is doing right now in Tokyo? Don't answer that. The answer is yes. Also don't call Kirou a collaborateur. He deserves more credit than that.

(Nitpick: The answer is only "yes", if he didn't have a contingency plan for that situation, and we don't know that.)

Yeah, the analogy isn't foolproof, or even very good. It's just hard to express my hunch. Also, "understanding the value of trust and collaboration" doesn't make one a collaborateur; they have to work together in this situation simply to survive. (The question of who is whose handler [as addressed by Theremin Vox and you later in the thread] is an interesting take on this theme. Power dfferentials are certainly relevant, and right now it's experience vs cantus, and I'd say that experience has the upper hand.)

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

I never felt Kiromaru's loyalty to humans was what made him different from Yakomaru.

In fact Dawnstorm and I had this discussion a couple weeks back that I didn't want him to betray them because that would take away from Kiroumaru's honor but she didn't think he should be portrayed like the "loyal savage".

I think what happened in this episode met with both of our wishes.

Yes, I'm pretty happy with what they did with Kiroumaru.

Now I understand they need the queen for the species to survive but if he was "honest" he would have said this from the beginning that the tribe decided they didn't want the queen to rule over them and they didn't kill her because they needed her to make babies, not try to sweeten it up with "equal rights" nonsense.

Now, this is where I disagree with you about Yakomaru. I don't think it's "equal rights" nonsense to him; it's more complex, something like "because we're bakenezumi 'equal rights' goes against our instincts."

I have this theory (and you've mentioned this theory yourself) that the bakenezumi are actually the hunter-gatherers the minoshiro mentioned in episode four. I think they've been deliberately modified; humans with mole rat genes vs. humans with bonobo genes, so to speak. I think the core difference is that Kiroumaru accepts that he is now a bakenezumi, but Yakomaru thinks they have to transcend their biology - as, even if they kill all humans, their social structure is still a legacy of human oppression.

I have a hard time believing that Yakomaru would go to Tokyo without considering the possibility of his death. Here's a question: do you think his plans account for the possibility? Does his second in command have orders as to what should happen if he shouldn't return? Or are they on their own, until someone else takes over?

I'm halfway between you and Triple R on this issue; I'm not sure about Yakomaru's motivation at all. I can see him go either way.

As for Kiroumaru's honour, I'm not convinced enough to trust him. For example, when he told Saki and Satoru not to answer Yakomaru, I did buy his reasoning (assuming smell-tracking isn't possible in the current situation). But I also wondered whether Yakomaru might have something to say to them that Kiroumaru doesn't want them to hear.

Ultimately, honour doesn't seem to me to be the most important, or most interesting, or even greatest difference between Yakomaru and Kiroumaru.

Finally, it's not very important, but I feel I should adress it, lest there be misunderstandings in the future:

...but she he didn't think...

Edited to reflect my biology.