Macross Delta - Episode 12 Discussion / Poll

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by karice67

What other planets? Ragna seems to be the last one that Windermere is trying to take. And given what we were shown several episodes ago about how the resonance was felt on all planets in the sector, how do you know it'll stop the planetary threat from spreading? That's speculation on your part, and on NUN's.

What? You missed Windermere's Manifesto; they declare themselves the true heirs of Protoculture. This means galactic domination.

Saying "Ragna is the last one they would take" is like saying "We should let Germany take Austria".

You assume good will where none was displayed.

[Gravitas Free Zone]

Originally Posted by Tak

Its thus a mystery to me as to why Germany didn't win WW2... INJUSTICE, I say! INJUSTICE!

Are you trying to Godwin the thread?

And can't this argument go on in the general thread? Because right now it's bothersome to have to sift through multiple pages of moral relativism to find the occasional bit of discussion on the episode itself.

To wit: I count 15 VF-31As in this stitch of one hangar on the Elysion.

Images

Here.

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Delta is on a different launch deck, so that makes at least 19 fighters on one side and a lower bound of 38 fighters embarked.

That seems very low for a ship the size of the Elysion. On the other hand, Big E has a lot more cannon armament than we've seen on past ships.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by karice67

What other planets? Ragna seems to be the last one that Windermere is trying to take. And given what we were shown several episodes ago about how the resonance was felt on all planets in the sector, how do you know it'll stop the planetary threat from spreading? That's speculation on your part, and on NUN's.

Yes, they only want the Sudetenland. And Austria.

[karice67]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

What? You missed Windermere's Manifesto; they declare themselves the true heirs of Protoculture. This means galactic domination.

Says who, exactly?

[FlareKnight]

Honestly I don't care how big or small Windermere's goals are. They should be nuked into oblivion.

Even one planet is too much. Turning people into freaking remote controlled zombies. That is plain disgusting behavior. If the people on Windermere aren't rising up to stop their leaders from what they are doing then it's up to everyone else to put them down.

And they sure as heck didn't stop with one planet and aren't going to stop from here either. You don't bring out your big battleship to take the last couple planets. You bring that thing out because the goals are far beyond this corner of the map. This is just giving them the amount of planets and relics to expand far beyond that. Why stop at "liberating" a few planets when you can "liberate" all the other ones? The wonderful liberation that mind control can give them.

If a NUN rep who seemed pretty normal showed up with that plan, it wouldn't be seen as all that bad. Thus they had to have the "mwahaha" kind of guy doing it. A controlled explosion that intends to limit the chance of harm is a rational choice. They are losing an entire section of space to brainwashing psychopaths. Destroying the ruins takes away a major part of that threat. It probably has a better chance of working and with fewer casualties than a suicide assassination run on the Windermere's super ship and main army.

Heck, at least they aren't going with a scorched earth policy. Completely waste the planets near this sector and make it harder for Windermere to advance further without really stretching their supply lines.

It is kind of shocking that anyone could defend a bunch of dangerous brainwashing lunatics. It's not going to end here. Keith is ready to go genocide on humanity and others who feel they are the heirs of the protoculture. Then of course just the purely powerhungry people mixed in there. Windermere isn't stopping until they are made to stop.

[Darthtabby]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

What is there to rebut?

So Windermere believe NUN nuked their planet. That changed nothing, they got their independence from that war. No one has an issue with them being free.

Your mistake is claiming that the incident justifies a Manifest Destiny argument of world conquest. That mind controlling entire civilisations into fighting and killing for you against their will is somehow legitimate because they got nuked once.

As far as I am aware that had never been Windermere's argument for war. Their argument is that they are the Master Race, the Chosen Ones, and that they should rule the galaxy because of their birthright. Being nuked was not part of their manifesto for doing what they do.


Enslavement of entire planets via mind control. Yes, that is worthy of being nuked in response. I will do it myself in that position without hesitation.
There is something worse than death; to be alive but not being able to control one's own mind.

If my country gained the power to mind control the entire nation of Spain, and my nation USED that power to our advantage, I fully expect my nation's government be immediately nuked into glass by every nuclear-armed nation in the world.

I believe I made note of the "True Heirs of the Protoculture" thing in my post. Up until Gramia's comment last episode, no one but Roid ever talked about that bs. On the other hand it is very clear that the Windermereans are angry about the devastation that was visited upon them. Certainly that's Keith's main motivation, and I'd gotten the impression the other knights were angry about it as well.

As for "oh, they have their independence" -I can understand why they might not be keen on being neigbours with people whom they believe murdered their people and then claimed they did it to themselves. That's not exactly the type of relationship that generates trust and goodwill. Quite the opposite really. Once you believe that your enemy is capable of doing that, what would you not be able to believe about them?

I also have my doubts that Windermere plans on mind controlling everyone indefinitely as opposed to during the war. (Even aside from their viewing themselves as liberators, do they actually have the capability to do that indefinitely?) Though I can definitely see why those facing Windermere would have to take the possibility seriously. I can see how arguments and justifications can cut both ways.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by Gravitas Free Zone

Are you trying to Godwin the thread?

And can't this argument go on in the general thread? Because right now it's bothersome to have to sift through multiple pages of moral relativism to find the occasional bit of discussion on the episode itself.

Meibee?

Though its funny, because morality discussions are becoming like Frontier's romance threads. But for those interested in yellin' n' screamin', y'all know where to go...

OTOH, I suddenly found an urge to talk about my Sheryl dress...

- Tak

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Mistyclear

You do realize that their supposed plan to mind control the clusters inhabitants is something that that Chaos and apparently the NUNS are assuming.... The Windermerians themselves haven't actually stated that this is their actual goal.

It's something we've actually seen them do. What more do you want?

[Tempester]

Originally Posted by Thess

Do you honestly believe that would have no consequences when the ruins are connected to the planet core? Especially coming from a Japanese environmentalism who made sure everyone to portray Mr. NUN representative as shady as he could without an evil laughter?

Secondly, nobody is arguing mind control is wrong, however the show is putting more emphasis on portraying the NUN envoys as unambiguously bad while Windermerians get those praises and worthy of respect glances from our heroic bunch. The whole build up now relies on Walkure persuading Heinz to put a stop to this. NUNs has become another obstacle added on their pursuit of peace because they aren't helping at all, they are just lording over a free planet, fueling the conflict by proving Keith's assumptions right, and strapping explosives on the ruins knowing fully well it could devastate Ragna. Chaos, not the NUNS or the Aerial Knights, are the protagonists. And they don't like or trust these guys.

I do think there can be (and likely will be) dire consequences, because this is Kawamori and he's a tree-hugging shitter, but you're thinking way too much from a meta standpoint. We know as the audience that given Kawamori's sentiments there's a good chance that NUNS's actions could result in a massive destruction that could kill more people than what Windermere is doing, but as far as the characters in-universe know there is far less of a chance of that happening (or they're not even expecting such an outcome at all). It's too easy to say from an audience perspective "I told you so" when in a future episode Ragna turns into a black hole, explodes or whatever as an unforeseen (in-universe) result, but from a characters' perspective, in the case where the Delta Squad cannot stop Windermere from trying to control Ragna, NUNS's actions are the lesser evil at the moment.

Why is what NUNS is doing worse than what Windermere is doing? Regardless of how pretty they are or how sympathetically they are portrayed, Windermere's actions so far in the anime have been shown to be far more morally reprehensible than what NUNS is doing right now. NUNS wants to pragmatically cut down on losses by rudely and without permission bombing some ruins that most people in-universe think might have the side-effect of hurting the planets ecosystem but (from the in-universe characters' perspectives) would almost definitely be a preferable solution to the whole planet of Ragna being mind-controlled.

Originally Posted by Tempester

I honestly hope that this is not what Kawamori is going for, because yes, blowing up some old ruins with zero casualties is far FAR less morally reprehensible than mind-controlling billions of people and making them fight and die against their own will while killing their own allies.

Originally Posted by Thess

Where has this been portrayed exactly? Because as far as we know, the only instance of mind control to fight complete strangers (Delta Squad) was during episode 8. In other instances, they used Var to force the armies to surrender to be quick and avoid bloodshed or was out of control frenzied.

How about every damn time Var was used against Delta Squad? In episodes 1-2 a Zentradi base was Var'd by Windermere and we had Zents attacking a city full of innocent people not to mention fighting Delta Squad later. There's episode 4 where NUNS fighters are deliberately controlled by Windermere with Var to fight against Delta Squad, in a crowded stadium filled with innocent civilians! There are NUNS pilots who die in that fight, as a direct result of mind control to fight people they're supposed to be allied forces with. Episode 6 is similar in that way as well. Episode 8, you get the idea.

Images

Macross Delta episode 6

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[Darthtabby]

Originally Posted by Tempester

Why is what NUNS is doing worse than what Windermere is doing? Regardless of how pretty they are or how sympathetically they are portrayed, Windermere's actions so far in the anime have been shown to be far more morally reprehensible than what NUNS is doing right now. NUNS wants to pragmatically cut down on losses by rudely and without permission bombing some ruins that most people in-universe think might have the side-effect of hurting the planets ecosystem but (from the in-universe characters' perspectives) would almost definitely be a preferable solution to the whole planet of Ragna being mind-controlled.

I don't think I ever claimed it was worse. But I do find it significant that it seems to prove the Windermerean assertion that NUNS doesn't treat the locals on equal terms. You think the writers did that by accident?

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

That's besides the point actually. What NUNS is doing is wrong because Ragna doesn't belong to them. It has its own local government and it should be up to them to decide whether they want to destroy their ruins or whatever, not up to NUNS.

What NUNS is doing here is robbing Ragna of their sovereignty.

Which is interesting because that's exactly what Winderemere accused NUNS of doing before their war for independence 7 years ago.

Bingo. And all those "y--you like Windermerians be-because they are p--pretty!" (I do think that Master Herman is a handsome man, admittedly, but so is Arad) naysayers are making up excuses and failing to understand this episode proved that Windermerians' cause (not actions) is justified and rightful (and by the way, out of the main teams: Delta, Walkure, and Aerial Knights, it's the one I like the least. My favorite is Walkure, but I just don't buy this outrage for their actions as how they are presented). Their actions are reprehensible, of course. NUNS disregarded culture and the sovereignty of the native planets to do their arbitrary will without giving a single damn if that harms not just the historical legacy of Ragna but also its planet and people. Not because of lack of manpower, like the Windermerians who are short on it and desperate, but because they can. They are still seriously misinterpreting this is a Macross show where the protagonists are Chaos and Chaos is seen either reluctant to fight the Windermerians and thinking singing is the best option (hell, their plan was to launch an "attack concert" with our trio covering Walkure). And they don't like the NUNS, read Arad's and Mirage's voice and face cues when they speak of their past in the NUNS: not a positive impression at all. The NUNS guys are just another antagonist, much like Leon was in Frontier, to add fuel to the fire and make the resolution more difficult.

I still think Epsilon would be final villain, though. NUNs guy would be Leon-Lite.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

That's besides the point actually. What NUNS is doing is wrong because Ragna doesn't belong to them.

I'll remember this the next time we discuss Madoka Magica: Rebellion's ending.

There are times in life, and certainly there are times in war, when the lesser of two evils has to be chosen (not choosing is itself a choice that will tend to favor one evil or the other). It's regrettable and unfortunate, but it's also just the way it is.

Which is the lesser evil?:

1. The chance of Ragna suffering some from its ruins being destroyed, and possibly overruling their sovereignty on the matter.

2. Allowing billions of people, from multiple worlds, to become mind-slaves.

You and Darth appear to think that the 2nd option is the lesser evil, given what you're both calling "wrong". Based on the information we have right now, I disagree with the idea of the 2nd option being the lesser evil. Results do matter. Principles aren't the only things that should be considered when lives are seriously on the line. Besides, even if we're talking strictly about principles, I would argue that the individual's freedom/sovereignty is just as important as the state's freedom/sovereignty, if not more important than the state's.

It has its own local government and it should be up to them to decide whether they want to destroy their ruins or whatever, not up to NUNS.

Not necessarily. Not when other worlds have their own basic well-being to be considered there. Ragna is certainly not the only planet being threatened by Windermere and its actions.

Originally Posted by Darthtabby

As for "oh, they have their independence" -I can understand why they might not be keen on being neigbours with people whom they believe murdered their people and then claimed they did it to themselves. That's not exactly the type of relationship that generates trust and goodwill. Quite the opposite really. Once you believe that your enemy is capable of doing that, what would you not be able to believe about them?

Frankly, Darth, this strikes me as the rationale of an embittered paranoid warmonger. It's precisely what I can imagine a Japanese nationalist saying shortly after the end of WWII, desiring to get revenge on the Americans for how WWII ended.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Thess

Bthis episode proved that Windermerians' cause (not actions) is justified and rightful.

No. Just no. You can't make one terrible wrong right by saying "See, those guys did something wrong, too!". Especially when what we have seen on screen from Windermere is so much worse than what we've seen of NUNS so far.

Hey, man, the Treaty of Versailles was a damn bad deal from the victorious nations against Germany. I'm pretty sure that did not justify what the Nazis then did to Europe to salve their pride (and territorial ambitions and racist mindset and so on).

[kuromitsu]

Fact that I wasn't talking about nuking Windermere but destroying the Protoculture ruins on Ragna aside...

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Enslavement of entire planets via mind control. Yes, that is worthy of being nuked in response. I will do it myself in that position without hesitation.

LOL, OK
Right...
Push that button and end millions of innocent lives out of pride and self-righteous anger. That will definitely help! In every possible way! That's what history has taught us!
Hoooly crap, guys... XDDDD

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

There is something worse than death; to be alive but not being able to control one's own mind.

Says you. Personally I think a lot, if not MOST people would prefer to be alive, especially given that Windermere isn't particularly going around keeping every single person in the conquered planets in a constant Var state (that would be kind of counterproductive). Yes, a lot of people are cowards and actually like living.

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

If my country gained the power to mind control the entire nation of, say, Spain, and my nation USED that power to our advantage, I fully expect my nation's government be immediately nuked into glass by every nuclear-armed nation in the world.

And you would be so so very wrong. Holy crap, what do you even think nukes are? Why do you think they haven't been used in action since Nagasaki? Nukes aren't toys to be thrown around. Bombs aren't toys to be thrown around. Killing innocent people is not something sane, civilized people do for revenge or to teach other nations a lesson or whatever.

(Never mind that you people don't seem to understand what a genocide actually is and what it does to a country and/or a people.)

ETA:
Also, given the level of Godwining this thread has reached, I also vote to keep this kind of discussion in a separate thread. It's basically impossible to discuss the episode or talk about the plot and character motivations and whatnot when people keep doing... this. *gestures*

(Also, I'm getting THIS close to making a GRAMIA DID NOTHING WRONG sig...)

[Dash_Hunter]

Wow so much discussion about the morality of war in Delta, I for one don't take it as seriously as some people here, and also I don't like to make assumptions or compare this with real life events, that being said, both sides have some good arguments that we can't yet verify but one thing is clear here, the agressor in this situation is Windermere.

They gained their independence and then they decided to conquer all of their sector, the reason is either they think to be the protoculture heirs (a big assumption), or they want revenge against NUNS because of the explosion on their planet that Freyja witnessed, Windermere say that NUNS did it, and NUNS say it was Windermere, so one of them is lying or a third party did that and both were deceived, we don't know for sure.

Originally Posted by Thess

Where has this been portrayed exactly? Because as far as we know, the only instance of mind control to fight complete strangers (Delta Squad) was during episode 8.

Episode 6 in the battle for Ioneth(?), we see NUNS pilots fighting between them and even one desperately shouts "Why do we have to fight against our comrades?!" just before being killed by one of them, then Windermere used the surviving ones to mount a defense for the planet.

Other thing I don't understand is how some people dismiss how horrible the Var syndrome is, like how all the people of Al Shahal were infected and then freed of it and some people said "they look fine" but we know the consequences of being infected once and then "cured" thanks to Messer, or imagine the soldiers that were controlled, how they are going to feel knowing they killed their own friends or did things against their will, IMO being mind-controlled is worse than dying in battle.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

No. Just no. You can't make one terrible wrong right by saying "See, those guys did something wrong, too!". Especially when what we have seen on screen from Windermere is so much worse than what we've seen of NUNS so far.

There's absolutely nothing wrong to kick out an imperialistic alien force out of your living space and system in defense of your weaker brethren planets (that are your neighbors and might be compromising your safety by their proximity). What's wrong is how they are doing it (their methods), but they don't have a lot of resources or manpower, right? If they did, the solution would have been bombing the Central Government on Earth and call it a day. If you actually notice, nobody is actually arguing in the show that their cause is bad, it's their actions that rubbed people wrong (and rightfully). Even so, Chaos and our heroes (including Hayate) thinks singing them to reach them is their best option. They don't want to fight them.

[Tak]

Holy crap, what do you even think nukes are? Why do you think they haven't been used in action since Nagasaki?

Nukes weren't used since Nagasaki because the US lost monopoly of nuclear deterrents. Not because of some magical moral realization. If the USSR never came up with their own bomb, Vietnam and North Korea would cease to exist. This is not right or wrong, this is simply a question of whether ya got it, or ya don't.

- Tak

[kuromitsu]

Originally Posted by Dash_Hunter

Wow so much discussion about the morality of war in Delta, I for one don't take it as seriously as some people here, and also I don't like to make assumptions or compare this with real life events

That's what I said last time and was basically told that I'm doing it wrong. Well if I'm doing it wrong I don't want to do it right...

Maybe some people just really want to be invested in and fight about something since there's not enough romance to fuel a shipping war.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I'll remember this the next time we discuss Madoka Magica: Rebellion's ending.

Spoiler for Madoka spoilers:

The reason I liked Rebellion's ending is because Madoka had done basically the same before, yet no one complained then. Now you can bring this up for discussion in the Madoka forum.

There are times in life, and certainly there are times in war, when the lesser of two evils has to be chosen (not choosing is itself a choice that will tend to favor one evil or the other). It's regrettable and unfortunate, but it's also just the way it is.

The lesser of two evils from whose perspective? NUNS'? Ragna's? Yours?

You and Darth appear to think that the 2nd option is the lesser evil, given what you're both calling "wrong".

I don't know what Darth think. Personally, I wouldn't choose either. I go for the hero choice because that's Kawamori's game. Listen to Freyja, she knows what's up.

Not necessarily. Not when other worlds have their own basic well-being to be considered there. Ragna is certainly not the only planet being threatened by Windermere and its actions.

Put yourself on their shoes. Would you like a foreign power to decide what to do with your country for the sake of some ambiguous "greater good"? You think the majority of US citizens would be okay with that? Sovereignty isn't such a trivial matter that you can jeopardise it so lightly.

And yes, I realize that Windermere are doing the same. But that's my point. Both are wrong. That's why I don't side with either of them. I support Freyja, because she's the hero here. She (along with Hayate) are the ones to save the world.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

ETA:
Also, given the level of Godwining this thread has reached, I also vote to keep this kind of discussion in a separate thread. It's basically impossible to discuss the episode or talk about the plot and character motivations and whatnot when people keep doing... this. *gestures*

(Also, I'm getting THIS close to making a GRAMIA DID NOTHING WRONG sig...)

I'm a German historian, Godwin can fuck right off. How everybody and his mom is bringing out imperial Japan as a comparison, but I can't bring up the history of my own country as a historian... yeah, I don't accept that idiotic internet meme. Not to mention that Godwin himself has repudiated what he has wrought.

Originally Posted by Thess

There's absolutely nothing wrong to kick out an imperialistic alien force out of your living space and system in defense of your weaker brethren planets (that are your neighbors and might be compromising your safety by their proximity). What's wrong is how they are doing it (their methods), but they don't have a lot of resources or manpower, right? If they did, the solution would have been bombing the Central Government on Earth and call it a day. If you actually notice, nobody is actually arguing in the show that their cause is bad, it's their actions that rubbed people wrong (and rightfully). Even so, Chaos and our heroes (including Hayate) thinks singing them to reach them is their best option. They don't want to fight them.

NOBODY ASKED Windermere to "come to their aid". That you are somehow regarding Ragnans, Voldorians and Al-Shahallans as dupes who are too stupid to see how oppressed... I don't even know what to call it.