2009-10-21, 12:12 | Link #2501 | ||
Natural Born Killer
Graphic Designer
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Roanapur
Age: 32
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2009-10-21, 12:27 | Link #2502 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Philadelphia, Pa
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And like I said we were discussing this element being added to the show. You obviously haven't followed the course of this conversation and that why you're so lost.
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2009-10-21, 12:34 | Link #2503 | ||
Natural Born Killer
Graphic Designer
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Roanapur
Age: 32
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You were the one who brought the word "atoning" up, you should keep track of your conversations. Quote:
Reiji and Elen were intelligent enough to know that Inferno would chase them until they would do something about it. So, please tell me how are they going to atone while defending themselves? They can NEVER atone for killing people to begin with, so I don't really see the point of saying it and why I even bothered quoting your post.
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2009-10-21, 12:52 | Link #2504 | |||
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Philadelphia, Pa
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2009-10-21, 13:01 | Link #2505 | ||
Natural Born Killer
Graphic Designer
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Roanapur
Age: 32
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Helping others wasn't shown for obvious reasons, the directors had a functioning brain enough to NOT add that to the plot as it was meaningless, boring and unrelated to the plot. This was an adaptation of the game after all, it did almost thoroughly follow the "Road of the Cerulean Sky" ending and completed it infact except for the additional scene they wanted to add in the end for reasons of their own. EDIT: Thanks for the -rep, you're really showing what you are, aren't you?
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2009-10-21, 13:10 | Link #2506 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Philadelphia, Pa
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2009-10-21, 13:25 | Link #2508 | |
Natural Born Killer
Graphic Designer
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Roanapur
Age: 32
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Getting a happy ending and living with the burden for the rest of their lives should have been the correct ending, but seeing as Reiji and Elen were two strong people and have already surpassed the burden of living with the thought of killing, it shouldn't have been a problem for both of them. Everyone goes through shit in their lives and some worse than others but that doesn't mean no one deserves a happy end. Obviously, some people are speaking from their prospective view and aren't putting themselves in Reiji/Elen's shoes. I can get why people would hate Reiji, seeing as he was pretty much the central person of everything that happened, but the blame shouldn't be brought upon his shoulders, he's innocently guilty.
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2009-10-21, 13:37 | Link #2509 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Philadelphia, Pa
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The rest of your argument is just an appeal to pity. They had it tough but that doesn't wipe out anything they did. The show clearly wanted to send this message. If you could relate to them or if you couldn't doesn't mean that death wasn't always on the table for them. Why is that so hard to accept?
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2009-10-21, 13:38 | Link #2510 |
Me, An Intellectual
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: UK
Age: 33
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I'm talking to npal here. I just want to make this point that I don't think a Dues Ex Machina has anything to to do with the internal workings of what happens. In otherwords, it can make sense. It is loigcally possibly. But that's not the point. In The Andromeda Strain, a lethel virus is suddenly rendered non-lethal by a random mutation which apparently affects every existing virus particle instantaneously. Now we're already told that the virus mutates frequently and regularly but it's still a pretty blatant Deus Ex Machina.
You guys have you're own discussion by yourselves. There are to many responses for me to get involved.
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Last edited by Haak; 2009-10-21 at 13:50. |
2009-10-21, 13:47 | Link #2511 | |
Natural Born Killer
Graphic Designer
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Roanapur
Age: 32
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It's like this - We are the viewers, we know what kind of life they led and we got pretty much every of their prospective thoughts. It's up to YOU now whether you want them to live a happy ending or NOT. Then there's the other thing... If you put yourself in their prospective view, are you really willing to give up the rest of your life for atonement even though the life you lived up to now has been hell or just destroyed in a matter of seconds? Some people like Elen/Reiji in real life end up becoming serial killers because they can't stop killing, being haunted by their crimes for the rest of their lives. BeeTrain pretty much left an ending where the rest is solely decided by yourself. The ending was ripped off Kite anime if you ever watched it, you would certainly notice the similarities between the two imo.
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2009-10-21, 15:26 | Link #2512 | |
I desire Tomorrow!
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: As far away from reality as possible
Age: 41
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If I told you "Magic makes everything possible", "virus mutates uncontrollably", "Gods may get involved in the affairs of men" beforehand in an attempt to avoid the DeM label if I wanted to introduce whatever, that's just a pretty weak setting, but typically it's not a DeM because I have already established a setting that can afford it, no matter how lame that makes me look. The DeM-labelled device is actually a technicality. If it follows the story's internal established logic, it ceases to be a DeM. Instead, the story as a whole becomes lame based on the setting that can allow it, but I'll argue that Phantom's setting wasn't lame at all, because the whole mafia workings made enough sense, which made the last part make sense, too. DeM in that virus situation would be if there was no indication that the virus mutates yet SOMEHOW when the situation becomes unbearable, it mutates and becomes harmless. Thing is, if something has been established (and karmic retribution by means of getting to taste your own poison in the end was heavily emphasized in Phantom), the best you could possibly say is that actually utilizing mafia assassins (which were out to get them based on the story premises) was lame, something which I argue against (UNLESS Reiji gets killed by a falling boulder or struck by lightning out of the blue). For me, examples that more readily warrant the DeM label is Kanon's and Clannad ~AS~ 'sending, but the fans of said material choose not to believe so.
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Last edited by npal; 2009-10-22 at 07:31. Reason: fixed DeM :p |
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2009-10-21, 15:34 | Link #2513 |
Me, An Intellectual
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: UK
Age: 33
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I think a poorly executed Chekhov's Gun counts as a Deus Ex machina. Atleast it does on TVTropes.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph.../DeusExMachina And the Clannad AS and Kanon endings are definately an example of such.
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2009-10-21, 15:43 | Link #2514 | |
I desire Tomorrow!
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: As far away from reality as possible
Age: 41
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Quoted from that site (I think you meant this?) :
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Spoiler for Kanon/Clannad spoiler:
Not sure how they fit that with Chekhov's Gun and Clannad ~AS~ though (as in there are good ways to use that and Clannad's was one of the worse imaginable, even we even count it as such a device). I'm not even sure whether the mere appearance of something that did nothing throughtout the whole series (as in hardly even EXISTED, let alone mentioned) is anything but a blatant straightforward DeM, but I suppose technically it could fit the bill.
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Last edited by npal; 2009-10-22 at 07:31. Reason: Moved spoiler up |
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2009-10-22, 02:29 | Link #2515 |
Me, An Intellectual
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: UK
Age: 33
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Actually I meant the third one. Fridge Brilliance is a good thing. Looking at my previous responses, I guess I should elaborate some more since I've missed some things out. I'll get back to you later.
Oh btw, you keep abbreviating it to DeA when i think you mean DeM.
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2009-10-22, 04:32 | Link #2516 | |
Koh nara dekiru!!!
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: August 17th - 31st
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Did you think Light was gonna rule the world at the end of Death Note? I guess some people just love grasping at straws. Oh, as for opening/ending animations and songs... they're pretty much a mini-spoiler reel in anime... and it's been that way a long time... Get over it, they died and it pretty much fit the overall tone of the series. If you want to see a "Happy End" go play Phantom -PHANTOM OF INFERNO, because this is Phantom - Requiem for the Phantom. |
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2009-10-22, 05:08 | Link #2517 | |
Natural Born Killer
Graphic Designer
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Roanapur
Age: 32
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Take another example Code Geass, so Kallen should have received the death flag just because she was a pawn in Lelouch's hands and killed people? And all the other people that were being manipulated as well? Their pawns (Ein/Reiji) survived but Light and Lelouch didn't. The only difference is that we got the whole series from a different perspective view (Reiji).
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2009-10-22, 07:30 | Link #2518 | |
I desire Tomorrow!
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: As far away from reality as possible
Age: 41
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I can't get how Phantom's case was what that site calls Cut and Paste DeM though. The logic of the story seems pretty intact to me with Inferno and all that so people after them felt almost set in stone.
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2009-10-22, 07:47 | Link #2520 |
I desire Tomorrow!
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: As far away from reality as possible
Age: 41
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Well, I can name at least one anime that comes to mind that it really uses something like that to off one char near the end in the form of a random, totally irrelevant kid. While it fits the description, it didn't feel out of place in the story. Phantom however doesn't use some random totally unrelated occurence, it uses other assassins and it leaves the option for their ex-boss to seek their heads, which is a logical step to take, so you have perpetrators from within the story who are backed up by the plot and the premise. I fail to see how that is somehow bad storytelling. Personally I attribute the 8 sec rage to "I didn't remember there was a mafia there, I didn't want to remember there was a mafia there, I am oblivious to the fact that both ex-Phantoms actively seek to become more human, have enjoyed enough peace after that final confrontation to let their guard down, so I cannot accept that legitimate plot devices downed them, my happy ending plox kthxbb".
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action, eroge, gunfights, seinen |
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