Fate/stay night Game discussion (Warning: Spoilers)

[Keroko]

Right, so I made a little slip-up considering the meaning of a Noble Phantasm. However, the mean reason I am contesting Caliburn being 'activated' is because it was never listed as such in the Status Screen, whereas the Boundary Field, Excalibur, and Avalon were, despite it being such a critical attack in the Fate route. I'll have to re-read the route to be sure, but I don't recall the name being called out either.

[ShinMasaki]

Well, I guess looking over the details of the Noble Phantasms, I can see what I overlooked.

We are assuming that Saber is fighting with Excalibur when she actually isn't. It's Invisible Air she is fighting with.

Invisible Air, the wind that masks Excalibur is what Saber initially attacks with. Think of it as a foam bat. On the exterior is soft foam that doesn't hurt too much, but at the core is a much sturdier damage dealing base. When you hit with a foam bat, only the foam deals contact and the impact is only foam.

The same can be said about Invisible Air. Although Excalibur is the base, only the Invisible Air is attacking. Invisible Air is ranked as a rank C Noble Phantasm. When Invisible Air is released and Excalibur is revealed, Excalibur itself is a rank A++ Noble Phantasm.

Berserker's abilities due to his Divinity + Berserkerness makes him immune to all damage from attacks below that of A rank. Therefore Invisible Air may not be able to hurt Berserker even if he let it hit him, but Excalibur would definitely be able to kill him. The Excaliblast at full power could very well kill him 12+ times over in a single shot, but Saber was not able to use this due to lack of mana.

If we consider Caliburn to be of lower rank than Excalibur, it could very well be an A rank or A+ rank Noble Phantasm. I suppose it would have to be an A+ initially since Shirou's projections are one rank lower than the original. Combine that with it being wielded by Saber (or Saber's knowledge of the sword recreated through Shirou) and that it is a very high level and powerful Holy sword, it alone could very well destroy Berserker.

Excalibur - A++
Caliburn - A+
Shirou's Caliburn - A
Invisible Air - C

What I want to know is, since Saber was already going to use the Excaliblast (only to be stopped by Shirou) and reveal her true identity, why didn't she just release Invisible Air and fight with Excalibur instead of the Invisible Air. Excalibur as a sword is definitely strong enough to take on Berserker. That and releasing the magic that conceals Invisible Air should have made it easier on Saber since she wouldn't have to spend magic points into keeping the blade concealed.

[rastilin]

Aren't you over thinking this? Invisible air is just an illusion, an illusion that can be burned away for a powerful long range attack but nevertheless just an illusion. Saber fights with her A+ sword the entire time.

What I want to know is, since Saber was already going to use the Excaliblast (only to be stopped by Shirou) and reveal her true identity, why didn't she just release Invisible Air and fight with Excalibur instead of the Invisible Air. Excalibur as a sword is definitely strong enough to take on Berserker. That and releasing the magic that conceals Invisible Air should have made it easier on Saber since she wouldn't have to spend magic points into keeping the blade concealed.

Because invisible air is an advantage, it's hard to parry a sword you can't see. Not unless you perfectly figure out it's shape like Assasin or you've seen it before like Archer.

Incidentally, the rank-down should be something like A+ to B+. If it's only A+ to A then other parts of the story make less sense, for <spoiler> reasons.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by rastilin

Incidentally, the rank-down should be something like A+ to B+. If it's only A+ to A then other parts of the story make less sense, for <spoiler> reasons.

There is no "B+".

The ranks go E, D, C, B, A, A+, A++, and EX.

[ShinMasaki]

Well, I could be over thinking it, but if we are trying to get a solid answer as to why Saber couldn't overtake Berserker without the Excaliblast, this is the only valid explanation I can think of. When you go through the weapon descriptions, it says her sword normally is named Invisible Air and it is ranked as a rank C Noble Phantasm.

Next to that, it lists Excalibur. Excalibur is listed as an A++ Noble Phantasm. Of course the description talks about the Excaliblast, but that can't be the only way the sword can be used. If we assume that Invisible Air only enhances Excalibur as it says in the description of Invisible Air (enhances the power of the slash) and is still only a rank C, then normal Excalibur and Caliburn must be trash swords even though they are listed as two of the highest class holy swords ever.

Now this doesn't make sense, so the only explanation I can think of is Saber's invisible sword is only dealing damage equivalent to Invisible Air's rank. When it is released, Excalibur becomes its full form and would be as powerful as it is ranked A++.

Oh and a 1-point downgrade from a probable A+ Caliburn would make Shirou's Caliburn a rank A which puts it at the level able to harm and kill Berserker.

[Blade_Lord]

There is no "B+".

No Lancer's Gae Bolg rank rise to B+ in spear of striking death flight mode.

And Archer's K&B is rank C-.

[rastilin]

Saber can overtake Berzerker when...

Spoiler for UBW:

She becomes Rin's servant. All her stats rise considerably. Not to mention there's nothing wrong with being hammered by that guy, the Saber class is "Best allrounder", Berzerker is "best melee".

Next to that, it lists Excalibur. Excalibur is listed as an A++ Noble Phantasm. Of course the description talks about the Excaliblast, but that can't be the only way the sword can be used. If we assume that Invisible Air only enhances Excalibur as it says in the description of Invisible Air (enhances the power of the slash) and is still only a rank C, then normal Excalibur and Caliburn must be trash swords even though they are listed as two of the highest class holy swords ever.

The description of invisible air only describes it's power as a magic. It's a rank C magic. It says nothing about the sword it's shielding.

No Lancer's Gae Bolg rank rise to B+ in spear of striking death flight mode.

And Archer's K&B is rank C-.

Yeah, I'm sure that's right.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Blade_Lord

No Lancer's Gae Bolg rank rise to B+ in spear of striking death flight mode.

And Archer's K&B is rank C-.

I stand corrected then.

Still, one step down from "A+" is "A".

[rastilin]

I stand corrected then.

Still, one step down from "A+" is "A".

If that's true then it makes...

Spoiler for UBW spoiler:

The Archer - Berzerker fight much easier for Archer. We already know he can mimic Gilgamesh's GoB because he does it in UBW. In the same path, Gilgamesh owns Berzerker just by opening GoB and hurling A ranked swords at him which is stated to drain his lives like water. If Archer's swords only dropped by a +, it means more A rank weapons are available cheaply.

Before we assumed that all weapons were B rank at most. This means that in order to actually injure Berzerker at all, he had to use Broken Phantasms which are very mana-expensive.

[Tyabann]

Archer was still weakened from his 'battle' with Saber in Fate, right?

At full power, he could easily take down Berserker. Just that Berserker took him down before he could be totally pwned by UBW.

Also, a clear difference between GoB and UBW... using GoB doesn't cost Gil prana to use. I think.

[rastilin]

At full power, he could easily take down Berserker. Just that Berserker took him down before he could be totally pwned by UBW.

There's no reason to think Archer uses UBW in the Fate route. There really is no reason to think so, except for the anime.

Also, a clear difference between GoB and UBW... using GoB doesn't cost Gil prana to use. I think.

Probably but it barely blips for Archer either.

I'd bet on Archer too but it wouldn't be easy. If he kept to his 4 mile maximum range and moved between every shot, he'd eventually whittle Berzerker down with BPs like he used in the first part of UBW. As long as he exploits his advantage, he can definitely win but killing him 7 times in hand to hand is more than one would expect.

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by ShinMasaki

Invisible Air, the wind that masks Excalibur is what Saber initially attacks with. Think of it as a foam bat. On the exterior is soft foam that doesn't hurt too much, but at the core is a much sturdier damage dealing base. When you hit with a foam bat, only the foam deals contact and the impact is only foam.

Except that Invisible Air is noted to increase the cutting power. So rather then a foam bat, you'd be wielding a spiky bat.

Yet, Excalibur doesn't become powerful enough to defeat Berserker until after activated. If Excalibur really is A++ right of the bat, it makes no sense that it didn't cut Berserker from the start, as Invisible Air would only be boosting it's power.

[rastilin]

Yet, Excalibur doesn't become powerful enough to defeat Berserker until after activated. If Excalibur really is A++ right of the bat, it makes no sense that it didn't cut Berserker from the start, as Invisible Air would only be boosting it's power.

Excalibur doesn't defeat Berzerker, Caliburn does. What precisely do you mean?

[Keroko]

I know that. What I mean is that an unpowered Excalibur is unable to defeat Berserker. She needs to activate it (as in 'fire da lazor' activate) in order to defeat Berserker.

Yet Caliburn received no such activation, and was powerful enough to defeat Berserker multiple times in one blow, despite being listed as the weaker of the two swords.

[rastilin]

Yet Caliburn received no such activation, and was powerful enough to defeat Berserker multiple times in one blow, despite being listed as the weaker of the two swords.

Yeah, to be honest that part never gets explained in so far as I know. Maybe it's a special ability it has, maybe it's just an author thing.

I know that. What I mean is that an unpowered Excalibur is unable to defeat Berserker. She needs to activate it (as in 'fire da lazor' activate) in order to defeat Berserker.

It is quite able to defeat Berzerker, at least once. The problem is Saber can't get a shot in. When her stats go up it's stated now she could do it with just hand to hand.

[ShinMasaki]

Ok, here's a question relating to the entire Nasuverse, not just F/SN.

I'm in the process of writing a Nasuverse fanfic focusing on the events after the UBW true ending. Just throwing this question out in case anyone know. I think this would be better in a Kara no Kyoukai board, but whatever...I'm active on here and not there.

Fate/Stay Night - Fuyuki City
Tsukihime - Misaki Town
Kara no Kyoukai - ?

Feel free to ignore the question as it is not really a F/SN question. Just cant think of where the stupid place is.

Edit: Correction...there is no Kara no Kyoukai board as far as I can find on this site.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by ShinMasaki

Edit: Correction...there is no Kara no Kyoukai board as far as I can find on this site.

Under "fansubbed" you'll find the topic for the movies.

Originally Posted by rastilin

There's no reason to think Archer uses UBW in the Fate route. There really is no reason to think so, except for the anime.

I meant the "firing swords from a range like Gil does" thing.

[Caliburn9P]

hmm does anyone know what color saber's eyes are? I was thinking teal or green o_o

[ShinMasaki]

Originally Posted by Caliburn9P

hmm does anyone know what color saber's eyes are? I was thinking teal or green o_o

You are correct.

Spoiler for Saber pics of win:

[Tyabann]

FINALLY finished Heaven's Feel. And I loved it.

So to all you people out there that hate it,