[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[GreyZone]

I hope the Manga will adress Ikuko's Identity too... so is she 'Yasu'? Or just a 'Random Stranger'?

Knowing which of these is true would help a lot in uncovering the "truth". Because then we would finally be able to guess the number of survivors for sure.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by haguruma

I kind of adopted the stance that, while Meta-Battler is a reflection of how Ange perceives the Battler behind the stories to be like, the EP8 gamemaster Battler is also a reflection of what stance the Battler in Touya took regarding his message towards Ange.

Battler's message might be with the intention to "give Ange a wonderful outlook on a horrible reality", but he also ran into the same trap as Yasu did. He assumed that there could only be one way for this to turn out, he wanted for Ange to reach his solution in a way that she would think she reached it on her own. Every time she strayed from that path Battler appeared to be pretty frustrated. He does not seem to understand why she wouldn't accept his wonderful fantasy.
I think that is why Battler met with the child Ange in the chapel, because he passed that key to a child, not to an adult with different views on the world.

It can be he wanted for Ange to reach a certain solution and to his credit he tried a way gentler way than Beato but it's still basically trying to force someone in an emotional turmoil to... play a game when they believe they've more important things to do.

Battler believed he could save his family, Ange is trying to find an answer to something that is plaguing her.

I'm not saying Battler is wrong in wanting her to find her answer just that he should know, by personal experience, that's not going to work well. Actually he should have realized it when he had to force Ange to stay against her will.

That's true that Ange is mostly acting like a bratty child but actually she's not, she's just a scarred girl and I think things would have gone better if Battler had simply told her 'before showing you the truth there are some things you've to see to understand the truth'.

Instead Battler seems to want to impose his view. Of course he might be doing this to present Ange with the opposite extreme. The outside world present her with a theory that tells her that her parents were monsters and she let it hurt her. He presents her with a theory in which everyone was The Best Person Ever. As his theory is theoretically as good as the other this could push her to reason on why the other affect her so much.

However, again, he's asking too much by someone who's not up to give him this and in fact it completely backfires. Ange escapes, steal the book and read it without being prepared for it.

Then somehow the day is saved but... well technically the same had happened to him with Beato as Beato technically go comatose and then vanished/died/whatever before Battler could reach a solution assuming he was sort of death.
Funny enough he was the one who had to 'piece' Beato together though we ended up having 2 Beatos, one is the one of EP 6 and one is the one of Ep 7 who's dead.

Originally Posted by haguruma

I really hope they will be able to keep the current level up, because I agree that the manga version of EP8 appears much more polished. In many ways EP8 seemed a little incomplete, almost as if half the script was tossed out at the last second (which is technically possible).
I wouldn't agree with the notion that the gameboard narrative of EP8 makes no sense, as explained above, but it was incomplete in many ways, as several elements were hinted at but then dropped a second later, as well as many scene-transitions appearing very much glued together at the last possible moment.
Who knows, maybe if he had just taken one Comiket off EP8 itself might have turned out a little more polished.

Well, it's an interesting theory and after seeing how smoothly some scenes were added to the manga I've been thinking if it was possible that those scenes were already planned but, for some reason, couldn't make in the visual novel.
(honestly I've hopes also for the Yasu story in EP 7 but as I'm stilled at the point in which she hadn't showed up yet I really don't know if the manga will handle it better than the visual novel... although I found odd how EP 7 removed the whole scene of Battler watching Beato's dead body in the beginning...)

Originally Posted by GreyZone

I hope the Manga will adress Ikuko's Identity too... so is she 'Yasu'? Or just a 'Random Stranger'?

Knowing which of these is true would help a lot in uncovering the "truth". Because then we would finally be able to guess the number of survivors for sure.

It'll be interesting to know the truth about Ikuko though I fear we've a long way to go before reaching the point in which she shows up in the manga... which has just reached Bern's game...

[Valkama]

Originally Posted by DaBackpack

From a literary standpoint, yeah, the logic battles don't fit very well. I thought they were cool though because it was a throwback to EP2, in a way. At the same time, there really wasn't MUCH to them, so that's why we don't get to see the "middle" of the arguments. He could have fleshed them out and made them more relevant somehow, I agree.

Besides, it gives Ryukishi a reason to use More Fear and lixaxil

I think the main reason why we don't see the middle of the arguments is cause Ryukishi likes to write in reverse when he gets stuck

[Kealym]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

I hope the Manga will adress Ikuko's Identity too... so is she 'Yasu'? Or just a 'Random Stranger'?

Knowing which of these is true would help a lot in uncovering the "truth". Because then we would finally be able to guess the number of survivors for sure.

Ikuko=Random, FTW.
For the mother. Effing. Win.

[GreyZone]

"First time appearance" of a character that is essential to the story after 3/4 of the story already passed? That 'For The Win'?
Well, with a small change, being her being the "solution" to everything.... and voila... you would have a DEUS EX MACHINA. Well of course that 'last bit' was not included but you see how close it is...

Ahhh wait I almost thought you ment that for real.... but of course you didn't, right? riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight? *ahaha.wav*


Well it is certain that she started to "exist" at latest in the story from EP3 on. But her showing her face in EP6 for the first time? That is a bit of a stretch. The only other "important" characters that show up late are Will and Lion, but their roles are either secondary, or their existence just didn't made sense before that point.


But I see I bring up old unsolvable "cold cases" back to light. Well we will have to wait for our answers I guess... well at least IF there will be any answers at all...

[Kealym]

I am TOTALLY serious.

It's mostly that I find Ikuko=Yasu terribly, terribly terribly icky and unlikable.

[GreyZone]

Well I already explained why I HATE Ikuko=RandomStranger.

But honestly I just want a clear answer which of those is the real answer. Every damn "prime theory" I make must be plausible for a world with 2 survivors, as well as a world with 3 survivors...

And then also the possibility that Meta and/or Fantasy scenes are included in the forgeries, or not...

I just say:

WE SPECULATED ENOUGH! GIVE US ANSWERS NOW!

[RandomAvatarFan]

Well, Hanyuu was a character very closely related to the story of Higurashi and she wasn't introduced until EP7.

You don't even need an Ikuko to get to Tohya/Battler as long as you know he somehow survived and he started writing forgeries.

[Renall]

We'd guessed Battler was alive pre-Chiru. Although I personally assumed someone was writin stories to him rather than him being the writer.

[Wanderer]

But Hanyuu was at least mentioned as early as EP1, just by a different name. Even if Ikuko was behind some things as early as EP3, we had no clue she even existed at all until EP6. At best we could theorize there was a survivor somewhere, but if Ikuko isn't that then she's a complete random, not just in the sense that she's a stranger, but also in that narratively speaking she just comes out of nowhere.

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by Wanderer

But Hanyuu was at least mentioned as early as EP1, just by a different name. Even if Ikuko was behind some things as early as EP3, we had no clue she even existed at all until EP6. At best we could theorize there was a survivor somewhere, but if Ikuko isn't that then she's a complete random, not just in the sense that she's a stranger, but also in that narratively speaking she just comes out of nowhere.

Well, there is few evidence to prove that Hanyuu was or was not actually part of the plot that Ryuukishi had planned at the point of Onikakushi, her first mention came at the exact same point as Ikuko/Toya's appearance during Meakashi, the 6th entry in the series, so criticizing Ikuko in comparison to Hanyuu seems unfair to me. I think it is very much up to personal interpretation and liking. Medieval dimension-travelling ghost ancestor of a protagonist from (possibly) outer space or vastly rich shut-in mystery writer who was in the right place to save a protagonist, I had a harder time to swallow the first one.

Hanyuu, just like Ikuko, was also not an actually active force within Higurashi but merely served the function of a device to make a certain plot element possible. Her involvement with the characters beside Rika, which led to several problems, was a nice addition but, in light of the paranoid frenzy they were in anyway, not at all necessary. Her only action as a character was starting the legend in a past that we don't learn about until a TIP at the very end, as well as saving the heroes in a deus ex machina'esque display of power.

Still, Hanyuu (or something like her) was necessary on a plot level to tie up certain elements. But I'd argue that the same counts for Ikuko. If the fictionalization of the stories came from an innocent survivor of the events on the island, who somehow did not know or did not remember the actual events, a helping force was at least to be expected.
In that sense she serves the same function as Hanyuu did, she is somebody who observes but does/did not actually take part in any of the actual events. She aids the protagonist with her powers to redo what seems insufficient. Her actual powers would enable her to stop the events earlier (or let them take a dramatic turn), but her infatuation with the protagonist lets her prefer to spend time with that person and not explore her own abilities.

[AuraTwilight]

"First time appearance" of a character that is essential to the story after 3/4 of the story already passed? That 'For The Win'?
Well, with a small change, being her being the "solution" to everything.... and voila... you would have a DEUS EX MACHINA. Well of course that 'last bit' was not included but you see how close it is...

Ahhh wait I almost thought you ment that for real.... but of course you didn't, right? riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight? *ahaha.wav*

Ikuko is a Deus Ex Machina regardless of who her identity is. Her being a stranger is actually LESS of an asspull, not more.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by RandomAvatarFan

Well, Hanyuu was a character very closely related to the story of Higurashi and she wasn't introduced until EP7.

You don't even need an Ikuko to get to Tohya/Battler as long as you know he somehow survived and he started writing forgeries.

Yes and no. If I don't remember wrong we heard the characters rambling about Oyashiro-sama and about hearing Oyashiro-sama's presence/footsteps rather early.

And I'm not sure how much Higurashi fits with Knox... I mean Hinamizawa Syndrome? Queen carrier? Spirit of a God showing up and then even taking a physical shape and no one noticing it has horns?

Originally Posted by Kealym

I am TOTALLY serious.

It's mostly that I find Ikuko=Yasu terribly, terribly terribly icky and unlikable.

Well, considering that Yasu is:
Beatrice (elder, younger and first)
Shannon
Kanon
TMF19YA
Kinzo's grandaughter
Kinzo's daughter
Kuwadorian Beato's daughter (yes, I separed her various family relations, if you feel like counting them as one suit yourself)
Clair
and I won't go into her assorted roles (hidden family head, culprit, maker of the assorted magical creatures and gameboards, writer of the message bottles, each cousin's love interest, supporter of the Beato's cult) and the fact it's unsure if she's a she or a he...

... well, I wouldn't be surprised if she were to be also Ikuko. I guess I wouldn't be surprised not even if it turned out actually she's Okonogi in disguise...

Also GreyZone has a point. She showed up too late and yet she was sort of important and part of the solution about how we never heard of Battler.

We could have guessed Battler managed to escape and have amnesia or was hiding and even that he was writing books about Rokkenjima but to figure out he'd been helped by a random rich stranger that kept the fact she found him hidden and is willing to pay a doctor to have his silence... well, that's too random and too uncommon for us to guess... and reminds me of what Kinzo did with Bice Castiglioni.

In short as far as I'm involved if Ikuko is Yasu it's probably lame (and either she lied to Tohya or most of the backstory we learnt is a lie Tohya told us) but it makes more sense than having her as a random stranger.

said this, Umineko had an Italian submarine filled with gold trying to hide it in Japan so if Ryukishi decided to make another stuff that has no sense maybe I shouldn't be surprised.

[Drifloon]

I could buy Yasu being Ikuko if there was any reason to even consider it, but as far as I'm concerned Yasu=Ikuko is an entirely fanmade construction. There is basically nothing in the whole series that even remotely implies it, really; the only reason to believe it is that you WANT to believe it, not because there's actually anything pointing to it. (I guess you could take Meta-Beatrice being portrayed as the Game Master of Ikuko's EP3/EP4 as evidence, but...well, that still doesn't explain why Lambda is portrayed as the Game Master of EP5, does it?)

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Drifloon

I could buy Yasu being Ikuko if there was any reason to even consider it, but as far as I'm concerned Yasu=Ikuko is an entirely fanmade construction. There is basically nothing in the whole series that even remotely implies it, really; the only reason to believe it is that you WANT to believe it, not because there's actually anything pointing to it. (I guess you could take Meta-Beatrice being portrayed as the Game Master of Ikuko's EP3/EP4 as evidence, but...well, that still doesn't explain why Lambda is portrayed as the Game Master of EP5, does it?)

Hum... I wouldn't confuse Featherine with Ikuko as Featherine is supposed to be Ikuko+Tohya, not just Ikuko.
Lambda though is the one that supported and aknowledged Beato as a witch, so she has a connection with her and with Battler as well as she'll support and aknowledge him as a wizard as well.
Considering in Ep 5 Beato is dormant and Battler didn't play for most of the game I wonder if Lambda's presence is supposed to symbolically tell us something... though she can be there merely for narrative necessity.

And I think that in the past the stuffs that could point to Ikuko being Yasu were listed more than once and since neither theory was confirmed (Ikuko being a stranger vs Ikuko being Yasu) it's just a matter of which theory you prefer.

We've other points of Umineko in which there are more than 1 theory and we can't prove which one is good after all.

[Renall]

The issue is ultimately the fact that Battler has amnesia at all. Ikuko is necessary as a device to make sense of Tohya being able to function and thrive with serious amnesia. If Battler didn't have amnesia, she wouldn't really be necessary for the story. But instead, a new reason would have to be explained as to why Battler isn't revealing himself. My guess is the author got mad that everyone was guessing Amakusa was Battler nothing the author could cook up made more sense to him than amnesia.

I don't exactly think of her as a deus ex machina, though having said that Ryukishi goes to great lengths to make her seem exotic, magical, ephemeral, and super-powerful, so it's almost unfair to just dismiss her as an unimportant side character.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Renall

The issue is ultimately the fact that Battler has amnesia at all. Ikuko is necessary as a device to make sense of Tohya being able to function and thrive with serious amnesia. If Battler didn't have amnesia, she wouldn't really be necessary for the story. But instead, a new reason would have to be explained as to why Battler isn't revealing himself. My guess is the author got mad that everyone was guessing Amakusa was Battler nothing the author could cook up made more sense to him than amnesia.

I don't exactly think of her as a deus ex machina, though having said that Ryukishi goes to great lengths to make her seem exotic, magical, ephemeral, and super-powerful, so it's almost unfair to just dismiss her as an unimportant side character.

Battler could have merely have reached land, be involved in a car incident (after all Ikuko was about to pass him over) and turn out amnesiac and partially disfigured (also the traumatic experience might have caused his hair to whiten before time). His clothes might be ragged so they can assume he's a homeless person. This way people wouldn't recognize him for Ushiromiya Battler nor would connect him to Ushiromiya Battler as they would have met him on land, apparently involved in car incident.
While he's at the hospital someone (a nurse, a doctor who sees in him his long lost son, whatever) could have grown fond with him, taken him home and help him to find a job and then he could grow engrossed in the Rokkenjima mystery anyway and write novels about it just the same.

And no, I'm not saying this is perfect (I come up with it just now so probably there are holes) but it involves the weirdness that Ikuko is.

[GuestSpeaker]

Her sister, Kyrie, is revealed to be the culprit.

is a statement too contentious to be appearing on the umineko wiki page for Kasumi. Whoever is in charge of that should really fix it.

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by jjblue1

While he's at the hospital someone (a nurse, a doctor who sees in him his long lost son, whatever) could have grown fond with him, taken him home and help him to find a job and then he could grow engrossed in the Rokkenjima mystery anyway and write novels about it just the same.

No offense, but that is basically the same thing that happened with Ikuko, only with a local deferment and a bridge-character being inserted into the plot. Be it a doctor or a nurse, people would be asking the very same questions of, why would she risk her job to help him, why is that person infatuated with Battler in the first place. Making them see a lost family member in Battler would actually spark more "that person is actually Ushiromiya XXX" theories.
On the other hand Battler being disassociated from Battler was necessary for dramatic tension to build around his very fate. Thus amnesia is the only logical conclusion unless you write a reasonable explanation for him avoiding his other surviving family members.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by haguruma

No offense, but that is basically the same thing that happened with Ikuko, only with a local deferment and a bridge-character being inserted into the plot. Be it a doctor or a nurse, people would be asking the very same questions of, why would she risk her job to help him, why is that person infatuated with Battler in the first place. Making them see a lost family member in Battler would actually spark more "that person is actually Ushiromiya XXX" theories.
On the other hand Battler being disassociated from Battler was necessary for dramatic tension to build around his very fate. Thus amnesia is the only logical conclusion unless you write a reasonable explanation for him avoiding his other surviving family members.

Why would they risk their job? He'd been taken into a hospital and he's assumed to be a homeless guy involved in a car incident. Even if they made researches they wouldn't connect him to the rich Ushiromiya Battler who was supposed to be on island. Battler is harmless and nice and when I said they would see a lost family member in him I didn't mean due to his look but due to his behaviour or his young age.

With Ikuko is different as she bribed a doctor to keep the fact he cured him hidden and didn't try to find his family which is weird to say the least. Not mentioning that Battler isn't disfigured or something but clearly recognizable so and Rokkenjima incident must have filled the news so either Ikuko or the doctors should have recognized him.

And I didn't deny the amnesia thing.

The problem with Ikuko isn't that she grows fond of Battler is how she acts when she'd just met him, by basically committing a crime (as i don't think bribing someone is legal in Japan) to keep hidden the fact she'd found him.

Unless she was really the one who passed over to Battler and then denied it and didn't want the police to discover it, her whole behaviour is... well not what any normal people would do.

In short she didn't look like an ordinary person who helped a memory less one but someone who's suspicious.