2008-03-04, 00:10 | Link #41 | ||
Hallowed Redeemer
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Stanford, CA
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2008-03-04, 00:14 | Link #42 | |
Banned
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Yes, perhaps as you say there is more than one misnomer going on in this thread than just Mecha as a genre. @Westlo: Ahhhhh man give me a break already, are none of my quotes sacred. Obviously as I said it's a joke that they can only do mecha series. Maybe I'm also not as big a super fan of Sunrise as everyone makes me out to be. You wanna carry the torch? I'll be glad to wash my hands of the whole Sunrise apologist schtick. |
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2008-03-04, 00:15 | Link #43 | |
Bittersweet Distractor
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 32
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Now to get back on topic.. I never said that other genres were not exploited, but I'm saying that the mecha anime category has been the worst one I've seen out there by far. You're second point is what I was trying to say in the first place kind of... I think the theme/genre/subgenre or w/e of mecha lessens the impact of its said show because the main point of mech animes is usually the mecha so everything else is almost insignificant. YES there are exceptions, but 5-10% of exceptions won't make up for the other 90-95% out there in my eyes. It's kinda like when people make stereotypes about cultures. Of course not all people of that culture fit in the stereotype, but there are sure enough that do to make a stereotype idea spread throughout people's minds. Mecha is like dividing by zero, you'll aways get zero.
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2008-03-04, 00:20 | Link #44 |
Lets be reality
Join Date: May 2007
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Sunrise are my fav studio Kaioshin along with Madhouse but I'm way too negative of them to carry any torch lol. I just found it amusing thay you were saying "finally the myth of Kugimiya doing only Tsundere will die" and than go and make a post typecasting Sunrise as a mecha only studio.. nothing maliouis in it, just amused.
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2008-03-04, 00:40 | Link #45 |
ISML Technical Staff
Graphic Designer
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I'm not sure where this discussion is going, but I'm with other genres making a specific genre less prevalent, which is why there's a mecha anime among my top ten.
Anyhow, I'm glad to not participate in the bulk of this discussion.
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2008-03-04, 00:40 | Link #46 |
Osana-Najimi Shipper
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Mt. Ordeals
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Sunrise has always been in the top of my list of favourite animators, as I consistently enjoy what they make. Still though, even I feel they make too much mecha shows, and wish that they start diverging a bit. What's worse is that they have proven themselves out of the mecha genre, and yet they still very rarely stray away from it. They've got maybe 10 shows out of their entire lineup that ain't mecha, and that's what annoys me most about them.
I mean, even take Code Geass. Did it have to be mechas that revolutionized modern warfare? Or Zegapain... would it change the plot whatsoever if they changed the way of engagement from mechas to say, space fighters? Sometimes I feel that for Sunrise, they put mecha in the show just for the sake of having mecha. But then again, if a large portion of their fanbase are those who's into the mechas, I guess it ain't such a bad business maneuver to input it in if it doesn't affect anything at all other than increased figure and dvd sales.
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2008-03-04, 00:48 | Link #47 | |||
Buddhajew
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: San Diego
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Especially about eroge adaptations, I'd say that your statistics are very off. From what I can remember, and a bit of help from other sites - The gigantic Fall '07 season had around six: Clannad, Da Capo II, Ef - A Tale of Memories, Kimikiss ~Pure Rouge~, Myself; Yourself, and Prism Ark. Two of them weren't eroge games, and Myself; Yourself's visual novel was released months after its anime began airing (I'm also quite sure it wasn't eroge, too.) Summer '07 had two: Nanatsuiro Drops, and School Days . The large Spring '07 season surprisingly only had two: Kono Aozora ni Yakusoku wo, and Touka Gettan. (I think there were at least five mecha anime, too.) And Winter '06/'07 had a startling one: Shuffle! Memories. I believe there were at least two mecha series, so I would say that there the number of mecha series premiering in Winter '06/'07 was at least twice as many as the number of eroge adaptations. That's around eleven eroge adaptations in one year. Unless 2006 had 37, I doubt your statistics are even close. (Of course, if I've missed any, feel free to comment on it, though I doubt that I missed such a large amount.) EDIT: I don't feel like a lot more work, so I'll estimate fifteen or so eroge visual novel adapations for 2006. _summer (two OVAs), Canvas II, Gift, Fate/Stay Night, Happiness!, Kanon, Otome wa Boku ni Koishiteru, Soul Link, Utawarerumono, Yoake Mae Yori Ruri Iro na. I'll include Tokimeki Memorial because, though it's not an eroge game nor really a visual novel, it is of the "dating sim genre". Space for four series that I may have missed. Last edited by qtipbrit; 2008-03-04 at 01:10. |
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2008-03-04, 00:57 | Link #49 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
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2008-03-04, 01:07 | Link #50 | ||
Somehow I found out
Join Date: Feb 2006
Age: 40
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Yes, Sunrise is big. That's not what I said. I said that if you conveniently ignore Gundam, their track record is good. Most studios of that size have a certain ratio of good and crap, but Sunrise has tended to be on the positive side of that ratio in the last few years if you conveniently ignore their cash cows. I agree with those that say a lot of the flack Sunrise has received from certain groups of fanboys is unfair, but when Sunrise is praised, it's seemingly for the wrong reasons. It's a bit disappointing that most of their best titles seem to be the ones that no one bothers to check out. Like Planetes and Zegapain and such. And even Idolm@ster Xenoglossia, which is so underrated it hurts. Quote:
...Didn't we have this discussion in the slice-of-life thread? Edit: You're missing out, this has been a pretty interesting discussion.
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2008-03-04, 01:19 | Link #51 |
Osana-Najimi Shipper
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Mt. Ordeals
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2007 mecha list according mainly to anidb
Strike witches Gundam Seed special edition Giant Robo Reideen Dancougar Bakuretsu Tenshi: Infinity Tetsujin 28-gou Gurren Lagann Heroic Age Idolmaster Jeeg Gigantic Formula Bokurano Aquarion OVA Sky Girls Rebuild of Evangelion Aquarion Movie (wow, must be popular to have an OVA and movie in same year. Personally, I thought aquarion was mediocre) Gundam 00 Dragonaut (Should I include this? technically doesn't fit the bill) Appleseed Macross F 21 Game adaptations (VN, eroge, galge, or whatnot) Shuffle Memories (eroge) Touka Gettan (eroge) Konnyaku (eroge) Nanatsuiro drops (eroge) School Days (eroge) Moetan (Should I even include this at all?) Saishuu Shiken Kujira (eroge) Clannad movie DC2 (eroge) Myself Yourself Clannad TV KimiKiss EF (eroge) Prism Ark (eroge) KGNE: Next Season (eroge) 15 So that's 21 mecha shows to 15 game adaptation that's mostly text based, or 10 eroge adaptations that I know of. I might have missed one or two in 2007, but that's it. I can go into 2006, but I don't think the 2:1 ratio of mecha to eroge adaptation wouldn't change much.
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2008-03-04, 01:19 | Link #52 | |
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Dragoonkain, you are also missing tons of VN adaptations. Interestingly you brought up Tetsujin 28 in the mech list, which is a series of short 3-4 episode stories set in an alternate universe Post WWII Japan such as a former spy trying to make a living with his brothers, a scientist trying to achieve penance for scientific experiments he conducted during the war that bordered on war crimes against humanity, a woman who resents Kyoto's intactness during the war while her village burned to the ground and seeks to even the score out of bitterness, a Mafia boss trying to make a cut in a resource starved Japan now that it has opened up to the west, and a zookeeper who is haunted by the ghosts of the animals he was forced to put down during the war to keep them from a worse death by the bombing raides, to name a few. All of these events are tied together by the boy detective Shotaro Kaneda and his remote controlled giant robot Tetsujin 28 (Built as a symbolic representation of Shotaro's unborn twin brother by his father, a WWII weapons research scientist), which was built as a war weapon, but never used (and let me tell you, as stupid as that me seem initially, in our own reality the Nazi's came up with some even more crazy weaponary that came out dead on rollout during the later days of WWII). The thing is that the majority of the series focuses on Shotaro's insertion into these other peoples short stories and Tetsujin 28 maybe makes an appearance once at the end of each arc to be used in a manner that helps brings the conclusion to a close. Sometimes it's a sad ending, sometimes a happy one, but it never seems to be meaningless. It also bring up questions of Asimov's laws of robotics in a rather complicated way you would have to see for yourself. Anyway it's that kind of unique dynamic that I find often in mecha series that draws me to them. I couldn't care less that Tetsujin 28 is in it (awesome as it is), but that it's whole structure opens the gateway to such interesting stories about interesting people. @Sorrow-K: If you are looking for one of those best titles by Sunrise that get's ignored, you mentioned one that you conviently ignored. Turn A Gundam is overwhelming about the setting and the characters. If more series could be set in the pre-civil war era I would be ecstatic as their is just something so overwhelmingly romantic about the period. Perhaps it's the simplicity of the life, with people still living mostly in rural areas even as the industrial age dawns upon the land and everybody seems to know everybody else and treats them with respect and courtesy, creating a sense of community that I feel has been lost since the Industrial Revolution. Maybe I need to watch Gone With The Wind again. Last edited by Kaioshin Sama; 2008-03-04 at 01:55. |
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2008-03-04, 05:26 | Link #53 |
STARVING ARTIST
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: 永遠の冬の国
Age: 33
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@Kaioshin_Sama: From what you say, I get the impression that the best moments of mecha series is when there is no mecha around or when they are not focusing on it. If so, then why watch mecha series at all, if you could get it all from a series which didn't have any mecha in the first place?
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2008-03-04, 06:39 | Link #54 | |
Somehow I found out
Join Date: Feb 2006
Age: 40
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A good mecha is just like any other good anime... it'll have things which are unique, be it characters, setting, etc, etc. I think the sky is falling in... I'm siding in with Kaioshin_Sama in an argument about mecha.
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2008-03-04, 08:10 | Link #55 |
Osana-Najimi Shipper
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Mt. Ordeals
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Double checking, I missed an obvious one... To Heart 2 OVA (eroge). But I missed a ton of VN adapted anime? Unless you provide evidence (aka. name the actual VN adaptations that aired in '07), I'm more inclined to believe that I missed very few, if at all. As such, I don't know why people get the impression that VN adapted anime are more in numbers in comparison to the mecha genre. It might just be more pronounced as people tend to talk about such anime more than your average mecha show, but saying otherwise even despite the facts that it's almost 4:3 would be just one having their bias colour their judgement. (or 2:1 when comparing mecha to eroge adaptations)
And the tetsujin-28 I listed is not the series, as that was made in 2004. The one that I was referring to was the 2007 movie, and I listed it as mecha not because I have seen the actual thing, but because animenfo has listed it as mecha. And knowing of the really old tetsujin being mecha (forgot it's English name though), I don't think animenfo is wrong lol.
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2008-03-04, 11:38 | Link #56 | |
Hallowed Redeemer
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Stanford, CA
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1) When I said harem/visual novel I meant any harem series even though I know some of them are not based on eroge adaptations. It's just that most of them are, which is why I grouped them together (I apologize ) 2) I meant only TV series, not movies/OVA. If you take away the movies/OVA from the mecha list, you'll see the tide turn around. Taking that into account: Winter 2008: Rosario to Vampire (based on a manga but still harem) H2O ~FOOTPRINTS IN THE SAND~ true tears Kimi ga Aruji de Shitsuji ga Ore de 4 harem vs. 0 mecha Fall 2007: harem/visual novel: D.C.II ~Da Capo II~ Myself;Yourself Goshuushou-sama Ninomiya-kun CLANNAD ef - a tale of memories Kimikiss pure rouge Rental Magica (yeah, it's a harem show) Prism Ark mecha shows: Dragonaut -The Resonance- (not really mecha, but I'll include it) Gundam 00 8 harem vs. 2 mecha Summer 2007: harem/visual novel: Nanatsuiro Drops Kenko Zenrakei Suieibu Umisho School Days Zero no Tsukaima ~Futatsuki no Kishi~ (harem based on light novels) mecha: Sky Girls 4 harem vs. 1 mecha Spring 2007 harem/visual novel: Kono Aozora ni Yakusoku wo Nagasarete Airantou sola Touka Gettan mecha: Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann Heroic Age Idolmaster XENOGLOSSIA Kiss Dum -ENGAGE planet- Kishin Taisen Gigantic Formula Kotetsushin Jeeg Bokurano 4 harem vs. 7 mecha Note: I thought the Spring 2007 season was a great season (not just because of the statistic, put overall it had many more action-oriented and more serious shows). Winter 2007: harem/visual novel: SHUFFLE! MEMORIES mecha: GR -GIANT ROBO- Juusou Kikou Dancouga Nova Reideen 1 harem vs. 3 mecha OK, you get the idea. I don't feel like digging up 2006 and before, but you have to admit that at least in 2007 and especially in the last couple of seasons (fall and winter 2007) the odds are astronomical against the mecha series. 21 harem/eroge vs. 13 mecha TV series it's almost 2:1
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2008-03-04, 13:08 | Link #57 |
Osana-Najimi Shipper
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Mt. Ordeals
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Woahwoahwoah! Why are we combining harem AND visual novel adaptations (and even manga adaptations too!) together? That would be me like combining the mecha genre and the shounen fighting action genre. They might be similar, but they're quite distinct to the average anime viewer. Not to mention you have included shows a lot of people can't even consider 'harem' in the slightest definition of the word, as the most they have are love triangles.
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2008-03-04, 13:32 | Link #58 | |
Lost in my dreams...
Join Date: Jun 2006
Age: 37
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I am little puzzled with what is trying to be proven here by listing all the mecha / "harem" series. (and i could surely nitpick on the list you provided Darklord, as things like Sola are neither harem nor visual novel, but i digress). Genre bias gets us nowhere, and even though the mecha is supposedly less represented, i found the majority of the shows listed subpar at best. That said, i can name quite a few horrible shows from the "other camp" as well. And what would i have proven ? That there are both good and bad shows among both genres ? (In other news, earth is indeed round). There is quite a bit of arguing going around the subject, though i don't see what is there actually to prove, and it seems more like arguing for the sake of argument.
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A story is a story and people have their preferences - that is perfectly reasonable and understandable. What i don't understand is the need to try and bring in arguments (that i often find self-serving and just as easily applicable to any genre) why some genre is "better" than another. Their strengths and appeals lie in different areas to begin with, so thats comparing apples to oranges. When we start arguing whose taste in genres is better (which this virtually amounts to), then i can't help but see it as exercise in futility. At times like this i can only be glad i am virtually unbound by genre and can appreciate everything from testosterone load emoing mecha teenagers and shounen shows to calm and peaceful slice of life series and find appeal in both. Just kick back and try to enjoy the story without trying to "group" it with something to determine its "value". Just my two rusty cents.
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2008-03-04, 13:48 | Link #59 | |
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One of my goals with this thread was to have people get their thoughts on mecha out on the table, bias' included so that we can all better understand them. That way in the future hopefully we can all work to get rid of them step by step. That doesn't mean people being forced to watch, but us all understanding and respecting each others point of view a little better. |
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2008-03-04, 14:34 | Link #60 | ||||
Hallowed Redeemer
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Stanford, CA
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Besides, even shows that have love triangles have a lot of female side characters interested in the main male character even though they do not have a chance of winning his heart in the end. When I say "harem" I don't mean harem in the sense that all female characters have to show serious romantic interest in the guy - I mean shows where a guy is set in an environment where he gets to live and interact with a lot of female characters daily. I think the shows I listed fulfill that condition. Besides, most of the shows I mentioned are on your list anyway, so I don't see why you are complaining, and the ones I added I am pretty sure fulfill that condition as well. Quote:
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I merely wanted to point out that the argument that the mecha genre is over-exploited sounds ridiculous to me, when there are other genres which are exploited to a much greater extent. I wasn't the one who started with the lists, I just wanted to support my claim with my own list. Generally, I am against such nitpicking and demands like "name 10 shows the fit your criteria" but I was given no choice. I just didn't want to seem like I was talking without thinking. Trust me, I share your opinion that we should leave the genre bias to rest and enjoy the shows for what they are...
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