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Old 2004-12-02, 17:10   Link #21
Scherazade
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr_Paper
Not entirely, while the Wing Zero and Epyon were designed with the zero system as their core, Quatre's Sandrock had it installed as a backup system that he had to manually initiate. While he might have used the system in the Sandrock, the Gundam was not properly configured to use the system's full abilities (I like to think he used Zero-lite ^^: )
What evidence are you citing to prove this assertion? There is no evidence that the ZERO installed into Sandrock was any less capable than the ZERO system that is in Epyon and Wing Zero. That being the case, the logical assumption is that the entire thing is installed. It's not even proven that a "partial" installation will work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr_Paper
On top of that, his ability to use the system was extremely limited. In the series, when he is exposed to the full Zero system he immediately goes crazy and goes on a destructive rampage. Later, even under very limited exposure to the system he still has a great deal of difficulty with the system and can only use it for a short period of time while struggling greatly to maintain his self.
First of all, Quatre was insane before he started using the ZERO system. He made Wing Zero because he was insane. Rewatch the episode when Quatre returns to his home colony, at the end when his father and sister die, he vows to make space pay for what Quatre feels is a great wrong. He was going to rebuild Sandrock, but idiot Instructor H left the blueprint for Wing Zero in one of the Winner Resource satellite's computers. Quatre built that unit instead. The ZERO system feed on the hate that Quatre had for anything in space and as a result, Quatre attacked everyone.

ZERO didn't make Quatre crazy, ZERO followed what was in the pilot's mind. There is not one instance that ZERO put an idea into the pilot's head that the pilot was not already thinking, and I'll get to that in a minute.

You say that Quatre sturggled with part of the ZERO system, yet you fail to provide proof that the ZERO installed in Sandrock was incomplete. Secondly, everyone had problems with ZERO when they first used it. To say that Quatre couldn't master ZERO because he "went insane" when he first used it means that Heero and Zechs similarly can't master the system because they also "went insane".

Back to what I alluded to a couple of paragraphs ago. ZERO works through interface with pilot's mind. What ZERO is [as can be seen from observation of the series] is a statisical computer that calculates probability based on the sensor data of the mobile suit it is installed in. It has constant contact with tthe pilot's brain which bypasses the pilots motor skills to a certain extent by not having to be interpreted by the pilot's senses. It is up to the pilot to guide the system to obtain maximum efficiency. If the pilot cannot control himself, he cannot control the ZERO.

As I said, ZERO calculates probability and also takes into account what it gets from the pilot's brain. In battle, death is always possible, therefore that is added to the calculations if the pilot cannot get past that fact. Preoccupation is the major cause of the "delusions" seen by the pilots using ZERO system. Let's look at it in a case by case to minimize generalizations.

First we'll look at Quatre. When he got into the Wing Zero, he was already unhinged after seeing a sister and a father die within his immediate vicinity. From that point on, he sees space as an enemy equivalent to OZ and the Alliance. Since he now views virtually everyone as an enemy ZERO designates any signal it picks up as an enemy target. It's further complicated when he encounters Trowa and Heero piloting OZ suits, he now feels like he may not be able to trust his Gundam pilot allies. He has enough control to tell them to get away from him, but not enough to prevent ZERO from designating them as targets to be killed. Eventually, after apparently killing Trowa, Quatre regains enough control of himself that he can control ZERO. However, he is frightened to death of the system. Heero forces him into using it and Quatre concentrates on only keeping tactics in his head while he uses ZERO. Because of that, he uses it effectively as a combat coordinator [not to be confused with the same term from SEED] and defeats the MDs that Dorothy is commanding.

Trant Clark was the next guy to have prolonged exposure to ZERO. His primary motivation is to surpass the ability of the mobile dolls, an obvious inferiority complex. Anyway, Trant, like all ZERO pilots can't get past the possibility of his own death, so he constantly sees visions of it even in training. He then wishes to see what a Gundam pilot, who presumably doesn't think about death, to see what they experience.

He finds Duo. Duo's experience is somewhat unique at the time because instead of seeing his own death Duo is preoccupied by endagering the colony and his friend. He has a vision of destroying a nearby colony. This is not a delusion because it is a statistical probability that Duo could destroy the colony if he fires the twin buster rifle at that angle. Therefore, Duo uses the beam saber [not to mention that a beam saber is closer to his usually style of combat].

Zechs uses it next. He like Duo has visions of destroying Peacemillion. Again, not a delusion because it is a probability that ZERO calculated based on the suits tactical data and what's in Zechs' head. Zechs also sees his own death for the reason stated above, he doesn't want to di fighting Wufei. Which brings us to another interesting case.

I have heard many times that ZERO told Wufei that Zechs and Trieze are his enemies. I think it's the other way around. Wufei prides himself on strength and feels that those that are weak should stay out of the fight. He also takes it very seriously when he loses a fight or cannot win a fight. Now, let's look at the situation, Wufei doesn't care about death, so that's not an issue. What he sees is Trieze and Zechs, the only two people that Wufei met in combat and could not defeat. Trieze had been a central figure in Wufei's head since their fight in episode 8. In episode 35 Zechs and Wufei fought to a more or less standstill, what's important is one of Wufei's last lines; he specifically says "That man will been an enemy to me." Now is it ZERO telling Wufei what's in his head or is ZERO merely telling Wufei what he knows but has not acknowledged? The same could be said for the vision of the other pilots, Wufei wants to fight on his own, but knows that he can't.

Trowa had an experience much akin to Duo. He was worried about harming the colony that Catherine was on, so he had a vision of destroying the colony she's on. Also, Trowa had a unique experience in that he got his memory back. The reasoning for this happening is probably due to the direct interface with ZERO. ZERO relies on the pilot's brain for assignment of targets, it's possible that this dialogue between ZERO and Trowa's brain dragged memories to the surface, however this is conjecture on my part.

Heero, like Quatre, was not aware of who his enemy was when he first used ZERO on Epyon, as a result he attacked everyone in the area. After a while, he learned to focus his mind and master the system to bring out its maximum potential.

Dorothy used it effectively because she has no fear of death because she's not on the battlefield. Her love of war also allowed her to focus her mind on destroying the Gundam pilots. Unfortunately for her, Quatre was a better stratedist. Also, there is the odd way that Dorothy and Quatre sensed each other. While I have no idea how Quatre sensed Dorothy, Dorothy probably figured out Quatre was her ZERO using enemy because she only had four individuals to choose from and having actually met Quatre probably narrowed down the choices considerably [again, conjecture].

Anyway, most of this is educated guesswork, I used the show as supporting evidence. While it is certainly not beyond reproach, I think I have spent an adequate amount of time compiling my thoughts on the subject that I would expect anyone that has any ideas of their own to have similarly put some thought into the topic.
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Old 2004-12-02, 17:10   Link #22
EpyonEmerald
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Zero System,

The Zero System is a TWO part system,

One part software,

One part hardware,

The data put into Sandrock, and also used for the moble doll army in episode 48 I believe is the software part. My understanding is that the software has an extreamly slower reaction time. Thus defeating the purpose of 1/3 the reason the Zero System is made(Remember that the Zero System was made in order to end human emotion in battle, also used to give 0.001 reaction time in battle. With these combined the future could be told of every possible factor in the battle)

Katra DID lose his mind when he used the hardware/software version of Zero in episodes 23-25. He was NOT insane when he enterned the suit. Don't be an idiot, the Zero system is made to be ran perfectly, thus if someone is not stable (remember the loyal soldier who tried to master the Zero system? He went insane as well was he insane before using it?)

The Zero System, causes a great amount of stress forcing the pilot of the system to lose his or her normal limitations. While this may seem like a good thing you have to remember that limitations come in character traits and not just battles. So what did we learn today? The full Zero software system WAS installed in the moble dolls and in the sandrock, but they were less then fifty percent as powerful.
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Old 2004-12-02, 17:14   Link #23
Scherazade
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dreamless
well, no first generation GAT-X series can do actual atmospheric flight, while Raider, Forbidden, Freedom, Justice, and supposedly Providence can do atmospheric flight.
You left out the DINN and the GINN Tactical Air something or other type, they can fly as well. Also, I'm not so sure that Providence can fly in atmosphere.

Quote:
The Zero System is a TWO part system,

One part software,

One part hardware,

The data put into Sandrock, and also used for the moble doll army in episode 48 I believe is the software part. My understanding is that the software has an extreamly slower reaction time. Thus defeating the purpose of 1/3 the reason the Zero System is made(Remember that the Zero System was made in order to end human emotion in battle, also used to give 0.001 reaction time in battle. With these combined the future could be told of every possible factor in the battle)
Where'd this info come from?

Quote:
Beam Rifles originally had their own built in generators and batteries after the batteries were drained the generator would recharge them. This method however could take several minutes so the Federation developed the E-Cap system. The E-Cap system basically involves making a replaceble generator system similar to an ammo clip. Each clip would enable the rifle to fire a limited amount of times after which the clip is ejected and a new one is slapped in. This was more effective then the recharging generator and so it became the mainstream method for beam rifles in the UC era. Some suits like those used by the 8th MS Team had special ports build in enabling them to recharge these E-Cap clips.
You're getting E-caps and E-packs confused. E-packs are the ammo clip type used on beam rifles like Zeta's, GP-01's, etc. E-caps are like the beam rifle used by the RX-78-2. E-caps contain a certain amount of minovsky particles and require a little bit of energy from the host suit to condense them into mega particles for firing as beams. Once the E-cap is depleted the weapon can't be used again until the mobile suit's ship recharges the rifle's particle supply. A mobile suit cannot recharge its own E-cap despite what games like Encounters in Space and Rise from the Ashes allows.
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Old 2004-12-02, 17:18   Link #24
EpyonEmerald
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My information comes from three different sources,

The Anmie itself,

The Anmie mags,

The offical Gundam site.

You can find more then 80 percent of the information in my posts in the actual episodes however,

Oh and by the way, let me point and laugh at what you said

"What evidence are you citing to prove this assertion? There is no evidence that the ZERO installed into Sandrock was any less capable than the ZERO system that is in Epyon and Wing Zero. That being the case, the logical assumption is that the entire thing is installed. It's not even proven that a "partial" installation will work."



You must be kidding me right? The software and hardware together = Epyon, Zero, Zero Custom.

The Zero Software = Moble dolls, Sandrock.

Epyon, Zero, Zero Custom= 1/50 average ability.

Mobole Dolls, Sandrock? 1/10? (Not sure but watch the freakin episodes yourself, Dorthy completely sucked up the Moble Doll Zero system. And Katra just made battle plans that Mwu could have made.

Epyon, Zero, Zero Custom = Elite, and very very mind alterling

Moble Dolls, Sandrock = A little offsetting yet easy to grasp for Dorthy who is an idiot when it comes to battle imagination.

The moral of the story? You have no clue what your talking about.
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Old 2004-12-02, 17:26   Link #25
Scherazade
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EpyonEmerald
My information comes from three different sources,

The Anmie itself,

The Anmie mags,

The offical Gundam site.

You can find more then 80 percent of the information in my posts in the actual episodes however,
Where exactly does it say in the series that ZERO is part hardware, part software. And Gundam Official says nothing about the ZERO system specifically. And anime magazines aren't always a good source of information. The SEED Astray manga translation done by TokyoPop proves that Enlgish translation isn't always reliable since the translator magically gave coordinators powers of telepathy [which they don't have] and made Rondo Gina Sahaku a woman [which he isn't].

Quote:
You must be kidding me right? The software and hardware together = Epyon, Zero, Zero Custom.

The Zero Software = Moble dolls, Sandrock.

Epyon, Zero, Zero Custom= 1/50 average ability.

Mobole Dolls, Sandrock? 1/10? (Not sure but watch the freakin episodes yourself, Dorthy completely sucked up the Moble Doll Zero system. And Katra just made battle plans that Mwu could have made.

Epyon, Zero, Zero Custom = Elite, and very very mind alterling

Moble Dolls, Sandrock = A little offsetting yet easy to grasp for Dorthy who is an idiot when it comes to battle imagination.

The moral of the story? You have no clue what your talking about.
Yeah, this is based only on your opinion and cites nothing that can be objectively defined. There is no evidence that a certain frame structure is needed fro ZERO to work. ZERO is a cockpit system, not a frame system. The text in the opening narritive defines ZERO as a "cockpit system". Now who doesn't know what they're talking about? As a cockpit system, it can be added to any suit's software system as we see Heero do in episode 44, I think. So much for getting people to think about their replies...
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Old 2004-12-02, 18:34   Link #26
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He has a point .Sandrock wasn't originally disigned with the zero system.So it is logical to assume that a MS wich was designed with the zero system from the start may be superior.There's an historical exemple:the P-51 Mustang was built around its engine.The result was one the best fighter of WWII.
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Old 2004-12-02, 18:41   Link #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scherazade
You left out the DINN and the GINN Tactical Air something or other type, they can fly as well. Also, I'm not so sure that Providence can fly in atmosphere.
well, I was talking only about the Gundams, else we have to add SkyGrasper, Heli, and Guul to the line

about Providence, I heard it's more like "with enough power, anything can fly" than designed for atmospheric flight
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Old 2004-12-02, 18:49   Link #28
EpyonEmerald
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Are you a newbie? Seriously, It seems like you did take some kind of debate class but its obvious you no nothing about the Zero system. Gundam Wing Mag, The offical 32 part mag. Are you an idiot? They are offical, not fan-subs. The information I gave is FACT, unless I said other wise.

And don't try to tell me that The MD system which had Zero installed, or Sandrock who had Zero installed ADDED UP TO ANYTHING that Epyon or Wing Zero did, (BUT EPYONEMERALD MAYBE IT WAS CUZ ZECHS AND HEERO WERE REALLY GOOD PILOTS!?) Lets not forget that Katra was the first one that we know of to pilot the Zero system, And his skill then verses his skill in the Sandrock was not even on the same scale. You fail to make logical sense of the Zero system. Thus you know nothing. Why don't you go on ebay and buy someone's full collection of Wing mags? So you can play at the same level of us figure heads :fingers: :fingers:
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Old 2004-12-02, 19:21   Link #29
Scherazade
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First of all, TokyoPop is not fan subbed. They bought the license to the material, and generally does good work, they are however not without their faults. Also, you are confusing the suit's ability and the ability of the ZERO system. They are two separate issues. I am only talking about the system.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZuesIrae
He has a point .Sandrock wasn't originally disigned with the zero system.So it is logical to assume that a MS wich was designed with the zero system from the start may be superior.There's an historical exemple:the P-51 Mustang was built around its engine.The result was one the best fighter of WWII.
The ZERO system is not an essential part of the mobile suit. It is a computer function that the pilot may use to enhance his skill. You can take ZERO out and the suit's perfomance will be the same, the pilot's abilities will be less, but the suit itself is exactly the same. That's not the case with your P-51 mustang example, that is a part of the machine's functioning/structure. Wing Zero is superior to Sandrock as a suit, but the ZERO system doesn't change in anyway from one suit to the next. I took the liberty of asking Gundam Official's webmaster Keith Rhee about it and he had this to say [I asked him twice, actually]:

Quote:
I don't think there's any difference in the ZERO System itself - it's just a brain-to-machine interface. Whether the Sandrock itself, ZERO System or not, can perform at the same level as the Wing Zero is another matter entirely. The Zero is, in multiple senses of the word, the mother of all Gundams in Wing, after all...

-- Keith
Quote:
Again, I maintain that the ZERO system is the exact same - it is, essentially, just a brainwave interface and a computer, and I don't see how they could possibly "downgrade" it or make it inferior. If you want a definite answer though, you should ask Mark...

-- Keith
If you don't find this credible enough, there's not much else I can say that will change your mind. I will say this though, if you disagree with my analysis of the system, fine. But at the very least offer some logical reason to show that I am wrong. There is no evidence in the anime that ZERO is not as effective in some suits as it is in others; ZERO is ZERO. There is evidence that some suits [Wing Zero] are better than others [Sandrock], but that is not the discussion here.
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Old 2004-12-02, 19:40   Link #30
Scherazade
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dreamless
well, I was talking only about the Gundams, else we have to add SkyGrasper, Heli, and Guul to the line

about Providence, I heard it's more like "with enough power, anything can fly" than designed for atmospheric flight
Yes, but Skygrasper, Heli, and Guul aren't mobile suits so it's not much of an engineering challenge to make them fly. As for Providence, I haven't heard that, you may be right. I'm just saying that I don't think it can fly; by no means is that the final word on the matter.
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Old 2004-12-02, 21:22   Link #31
Mr_Paper
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scherazade
What evidence are you citing to prove this assertion? There is no evidence that the ZERO installed into Sandrock was any less capable than the ZERO system that is in Epyon and Wing Zero. That being the case, the logical assumption is that the entire thing is installed. It's not even proven that a "partial" installation will work.
Much of my reasoing is, like yours, the product of educated guessing and logical assumptions. However, I'll pose this question to you, what evidence can you provide that directly disproves my assumptions?

I find it hard to believe that all the Gundams in the Wing series, given that they all seem to have roughly the same mechanical design, would be built with the hardware, brain-machine interface, for the Zero system if there was no intent of ever installing the system in the suits. The material needed by the Zero system equipment would be an unnessecary addition of weight in a high mobility suit if there was no intent to use it. The scientists that not only built the suits but also designed the Zero system admitted that they believed and intended that it should never be used. The best way to ensure that it is indeed never used would be to never make an interface capable of handling it. This is not only reasonable, but seems the single most likely option. Now, I ask you again, how does a mobile suit lacking the hardware to perform the brain-machine interface operate the Zero system?

Unless you can convince me that Heero is not only the perfect soldier (he is the only person to master the system, as such he must be the perfect soldier) but that he is also an engineer of such extrordinary skill that he managed to build a brain-machine interface from scratch using only visual comparisons to one from the Wing Zero, I will continue to believe, regardless of what the Gundam Official webmaster says, that the system in Sandrock is not complete. This is re-enforced by the fact that Heero is only shown installing software in the Sandrock and nothing else.

I'm not going to quote the rest as I largely agree with your analysis of the Zero system's effects on various people in the series (although there are points I disagree with they're not worth bringing up). But just as an observation, based on how the Gundam Official answered your questions, I'd say you asked something along the lines of:
"Is the Zero system equiped Sandrock of equal combat strenght as the Wing Zero?"
If you asked something else, then please tell us what you asked because if this is indeed what you asked first then you asked a loaded question with no relavence to the discussion at hand. Now it's possible that the webmaster just responded in a weird manner and it happens from time to time. Even though the second answer is more focused on our discussion topic it still leaves open the possibility that the Zero system in the Sandrock was incomplete. Unless we know which portions of the Zero system were installed by Heero and can be shown that the Sandrock does have a fully functioning brain-machine interface, there is no way to determine which side is right.

To recap, I agree with EpyonEmerald. The Zero system consists of both hardware and software elements and since the I can find no good cause for the hardware to be present in the Sandrock before the software was installed nor have I seen any evidence that anything more than the software portion of the system was installed, I do believe the system was incomplete and as such cannot be considered the actually Zero system.

Last edited by Mr_Paper; 2004-12-02 at 21:32.
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Old 2004-12-02, 22:42   Link #32
Scherazade
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This is the exact text of what I sent to Keith the first time:

Quote:
I have made multiple observations on the ZERO system and feel that I have a pretty firm grasp of how it works, however I did have one question. Is there any difference between the ZERO system when it is installed in Sandrock? I don't think there is, but I have heard claims that ZERO is dependent on the hardware it's connected to, i.e. if it's not in Wing Zero or Epyon, it's inferior. Is there any truth at all to this? I don't think so.

As always, your help is appreciated
This is the clarifying pm that I sent:

Quote:
Well, what I meant by performance is the ZERO's performance in each suit. The assertion someone is arguing me about is that the ZERO in Wing Zero is the complete system and when Sandrock was given a copy the ZERO system that it was somehow incomplete or inferior to the ZERO system that is Wing Zero and Epyon. I think that ZERO is ZERO regardless of the suit. Suit performance is, as you say, a completely different issue.
To be honest, if you think I am dishonest enough to phrase my question to get a specific answer, I don't know why you believe anything I type in regards to what Keith says. I may feel that I am right, but at the end of the day, I want to get the most accurate information possible. Thanks for questioning my integrity though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr_Paper
I find it hard to believe that all the Gundams in the Wing series, given that they all seem to have roughly the same mechanical design, would be built with the hardware, brain-machine interface, for the Zero system if there was no intent of ever installing the system in the suits. The material needed by the Zero system equipment would be an unnessecary addition of weight in a high mobility suit if there was no intent to use it. The scientists that not only built the suits but also designed the Zero system admitted that they believed and intended that it should never be used. The best way to ensure that it is indeed never used would be to never make an interface capable of handling it. This is not only reasonable, but seems the single most likely option. Now, I ask you again, how does a mobile suit lacking the hardware to perform the brain-machine interface operate the Zero system?
You are assuming a specific cockpit structure is need for ZERO system to function. As we have seen ZERO is a software program that is installed in the mobile suit's computer. How have we seen that it's software, Heero is taking the discs out of his Gundam and Howard says "That's the ZERO system". I guess he would know considering he also assisted in creating the Tallgeese and may have helped the 5 scientists on Wing ZERO, but that's unknowable.

ZERO is also installed on Epyon, are you telling me that Epyon and Wing Zero have identical cockpit construction considering that the suits were constructed by different people. I would also refer you to MAHQ where it has lineart scans for the cockpit. Epyon and Wing Zero have distinctly different cockpits.

My reasoning in saying that ZERO is only software is that it's not stated that a special cockpit needs to be designed, that being the case, status quo argument says that the discs are the ZERO system. As you say Heero is shown installing software and nothing else. Where are you getting that anything else needs to be installed?

Quote:
But just as an observation, based on how the Gundam Official answered your questions, I'd say you asked something along the lines of:
"Is the Zero system equiped Sandrock of equal combat strenght as the Wing Zero?"
Again, thank you for implying that I'm unethical. That is the thing I'm disputing, I don't think they are of equal combat strength, what I think is that ZERO is the same no matter what suit it is in. And even if I did ask the question that you have me asking, it wouldn't garner the response that Keith gave. Keith said nothing of combat strength, he said that there wouldn't be any difference in the ZERO system itself. If you want to talk to either Mark or Keith about it, join Gundam Watch's forums and send them a pm.

Quote:
If you asked something else, then please tell us what you asked because if this is indeed what you asked first then you asked a loaded question with no relavence to the discussion at hand. Now it's possible that the webmaster just responded in a weird manner and it happens from time to time. Even though the second answer is more focused on our discussion topic it still leaves open the possibility that the Zero system in the Sandrock was incomplete. Unless we know which portions of the Zero system were installed by Heero and can be shown that the Sandrock does have a fully functioning brain-machine interface, there is no way to determine which side is right.
Now you are changing your argument saying that hardware isn't needed but that not all of the software was used. For this I say: how can you prove that not all of the ZERO system is used? Before you ask me to prove the whole thing was moved, I will say that I am not required to. The narative does not say that it is a partial install, so it must be reasoned that the whole thing was used. There is nothing to suggest a partial install of ZERO would work. So unless there is some information that says it is a partial installation, status quo argument is that the entire thing is used in Sandrock. Why do we have to assume it's a full install? Because we know a full installation will work, there is no way to prove that a partial install will function.

Quote:
The Zero system consists of both hardware and software elements and since the I can find no good cause for the hardware to be present in the Sandrock before the software was installed nor have I seen any evidence that anything more than the software portion of the system was installed, I do believe the system was incomplete and as such cannot be considered the actually Zero system.
You are stating an assertion as fact. There is nothing in the narrative of the show that states there is a hardware component. Therefore you cannot state this as fact. If you want it to be your opinion, fine, but state it as your opinion and do not try to make it fact by asserting it's true. I don't care if people disagree with me as I am stating my opinion, but don't tell me I am wrong unless you can give me a quote or something from a credible source that says ZERO has a hardware component essential to it's function. What I have given is supported by the show, we know that Heero is installing the ZERO system in Sandrock.

We have to assume that if it wasn't going to work in Sandrock as it does in Wing Zero, then Heero wouldn't have bothered. What use is there is installing something that's not going to work? Secondly, if Heero even thought that the ZERO installed in Sandrock would be weaker than his copy he would have said something to Quatre to calm him down. Something like "You can handle this, I left out....[fill the blank]." Nothing of the sort was said. So I reiterate that if there is no evidence of requisite cockpit equipment and no evidence that ZERO works when "incomplete", a logical assumption is that it works in any suit and it doesn't work unless it is fully installed.

If you disagree, you disagree, but you cannot give a definative, objective source for the claim that hardware is needed or that the installation is incomplete therefore your point of view is nothing more than your opinion. My post was my opinion as well, however, I don't have to prove that ZERO needs hardware, you do. Why do I have to prove that something doesn't exist when you haven't proven that it does? If you can't prove that it does, then why do you believe that?

Note: The underlined sentences are questions that I would like an answer to in particular.
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Old 2004-12-02, 23:33   Link #33
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Clarifications of the Zero System:

http://www.geocities.com/gundam_wing..._wingzero.html
http://gundam195ac.tripod.com/id80.htm

The main argument should be how does the Zero system connect to the brain directly not how is it software or hardware. Because if it sends signals to the brain directly shouldnt there be some special piece of hardware or something because how does it impliment sending the signal to the brain?
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Old 2004-12-02, 23:56   Link #34
Scherazade
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F!reStr!fe
Clarifications of the Zero System:

http://www.geocities.com/gundam_wing..._wingzero.html
http://gundam195ac.tripod.com/id80.htm

The main argument should be how does the Zero system connect to the brain directly not how is it software or hardware. Because if it sends signals to the brain directly shouldnt there be some special piece of hardware or something because how does it impliment sending the signal to the brain?
Neither of those sites are any more "factual" that what we are talking about here. It's opinion, just like us here. There are points of ambiguity that are left up to the viewer to decide such as the matter of whether or not ZERO "tells" the pilot things. I don't think it does, only that ZERO shows the pilot what's already in his head. Kind of the way that a mirror shows a reflection. It just depends on how you look at it. I've already stated my opinion on this point of contention when it comes to ZERO so I'll spare you all any in depth discussion from me.
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Old 2004-12-03, 04:56   Link #35
Esper 28
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Wow, guys. You all do realize you're arguing about Gundam Wing, right? It's not exactly the most tech savvy show to begin with.

Oh well, it can't be helped, I guess.

Either way, I have to agree with Scherazade...at least in the fact that you guys aren't explaining WHY you're saying the ZERO system used in the Sandrock is inferior to the one used in the Wing Zero.

I saw someone mention something about hardware. What hardware? That confused the hell out of me, I have to admit. Heero wouldn't have been able to just port the ZERO system over to the Sandrock if there was hardware involved with using the system.

Think about it, software won't work unless the hardware can support it. Like, say you want an uber new PC game but your computer doesn't have the video card or whatever to run it. Okay, so you obviously can't run the uber cool game. That makes the entire software useless.

Now take that over to the ZERO system. You can't work the ZERO system unless the hardware supports it. So, obviously the Sandrock had whatever hardware that the Wing Zero had otherwise the ZERO system would've been useless.

Does that make sense to everyone? I hope so.

But hey, if you guys can come up with some solid proof that says Quattre didn't get the full system, then by all means let me see it and I'll happily eat my words. So far you guys are just telling Scherazade to prove himself while not actualling proving him wrong nor proving yourself right.

I'd also like to reiterate, this is Gundam Wing, guys. Gundam Wing doesn't make any sense no matter how you look at it...
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Old 2004-12-03, 14:41   Link #36
ZeusIrae
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esper 28:more reason to argue.
sherazade:Well mustang wsn't a perfect analogy.I don't know if zero syst is only a software or something else.You're probably right since you have access to the light.
What I want to mean is this:Brain/machine interface is a revolution,for me it's like fly-by-wire.If the pilot doesn't have to use a normal inteface but is directly connected
to the MS systems then agility,accuracy and other things are improved and only a MS designed with the zero system can use it at its full potential.
But perhaps i don't really understand what the zero system is.
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Old 2004-12-03, 20:20   Link #37
Mr_Paper
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First off, I did not mean to question your integrety or imply that you are immoral or unethical in some manner. I apologized that it came across in that manner.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scherazade
You are assuming a specific cockpit structure is need for ZERO system to function.
Actually, I'm assuming that a specific piece of hardware is required to run the Zero system, namely the brain-machine interface. The cockpit can a be shaped like a triangle and still work with the Zero system if it contains both the interface hardware and the software.

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ZERO is also installed on Epyon, are you telling me that Epyon and Wing Zero have identical cockpit construction considering that the suits were constructed by different people. I would also refer you to MAHQ where it has lineart scans for the cockpit. Epyon and Wing Zero have distinctly different cockpits.
That claim doesn't work for me. You're arguing that function is dependant on aestetic appearance and that is entirely untrue, aestetic differences do not imply functional differences.

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My reasoning in saying that ZERO is only software is that it's not stated that a special cockpit needs to be designed, that being the case, status quo argument says that the discs are the ZERO system. As you say Heero is shown installing software and nothing else. Where are you getting that anything else needs to be installed?
I'm not saying the cockpit needs to look a certain way, I am saying that the cockpit would indeed require that certain hardware need be installed in it. You've previously argued that Dorthy used the Zero system and indeed she did however, in every instance she is depicted operated the mobile dolls through the system she is wearing a large helmet that would, concievebly, be the brain-machine interface the system requires. Now, it maybe be the case that because of the large size of the room she is in that interface nodes or devices located in the walls are too far away to work properly, thus the need for the helmet/hat like thing. This would also explain why the pilots, Gundam and otherwise, do not need such helmets because of the confined areas of the Wing Zero and Epyon's cockpits. On the other hand, it shows, somewhat definitively, that an interface is required to operate the system.

So to repeat myself, seemingly again, as I can find no reason to believe that the scientists, which never intended for the Zero system to used, would incorporate the specific hardware for the system's use into a machine that they did not design to work with or use the system. Now, yet again I maybe wrong, Heero could have had the scientists create another interface and install it in the Sandrock. However, as there is neither any proof of this occuring or of it not occuring, it can be used to argue either side.

If you are of the belief that the Zero system is purely software based and does not require any form of hardware to connect it to the pilot's brain, then I am at a loss for explainations.

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Again, thank you for implying that I'm unethical.
Again, that was not my intention and I apologize for it.

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Now you are changing your argument saying that hardware isn't needed but that not all of the software was used. For this I say: how can you prove that not all of the ZERO system is used? Before you ask me to prove the whole thing was moved, I will say that I am not required to. The narative does not say that it is a partial install, so it must be reasoned that the whole thing was used. There is nothing to suggest a partial install of ZERO would work. So unless there is some information that says it is a partial installation, status quo argument is that the entire thing is used in Sandrock. Why do we have to assume it's a full install? Because we know a full installation will work, there is no way to prove that a partial install will function.
Actually my argument did not change, you only focused on the first half of the sentence. How can I argue that the entire system might not have been installed? Follow this:

Everyboby has heard of Winamp, right? Okay, when you download the installation software for the program you are given three options: Basic, Normal and Full install packages. Now regardless of which one of those packages you download, you still recieve the exact same installation file. The only difference is the file's preset defaults, those prechecked option boxes under the install option list. Now given that the install program is the same for the basic and the full versions (as I can download the basic install and still preform the full install), the only difference between the two is which modules or packages one chooses to install. Indeed, this type of install system is used on nearly every peice of software out to day. You're almost always given the option of full install, partial install or custom install. So what reason is there to doubt that the same type of option ability couldn't exist in the Zero install? It is possible that one could install the basic system and only the tactical analysis and prediction modules and the system still fuction, indeed my copy of 3DSMax still works normally despite the fact that I haven't installed any of the export functions, VRML modules or the texture packages.

Modular or Object Orientated programming is highly efficient and allows, if coded correctly, for a program to run even if sections of the program are not present, so why can't such a concept and programs based on this concept exist in the Gundam world? Even the operating system on the computer you are currently using works in this manner... Simply because we don't know if a partial installation will work, doesn't mean that there isn't the possibility that it would work.

My opinion on this matter is not based on random speculation, but rather givens that can be taken our world and applied to any other logically equivilant situation.

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You are stating an assertion as fact. There is nothing in the narrative of the show that states there is a hardware component. Therefore you cannot state this as fact. If you want it to be your opinion, fine, but state it as your opinion and do not try to make it fact by asserting it's true. I don't care if people disagree with me as I am stating my opinion, but don't tell me I am wrong unless you can give me a quote or something from a credible source that says ZERO has a hardware component essential to it's function. What I have given is supported by the show, we know that Heero is installing the ZERO system in Sandrock.
I've already shown that there must be a hardware component, Dorthy is required to be in a certain room and wear a helmet in order to control the mobile dolls zia the Zero system. If it were the case that such a helmet or interface was not required then she or anyone else could control the system from any point on the space station/base, but that is not the case.

You, yourself are doing the same thing. Simply because the majority agrees with something does not make it fact (the belief that the world was not only the center of the universe but was also flat persisted for over 1600 years because the majority thought it correct). I am offering a viable and explainable alternative to the popular opinion that still works and fits within the given information. So far you have only argued that the system is purely software based only on the fact that the show depicts the software being installed. If it were indeed true that the system could operate only off the software then there would be no need for Dorthy to wear the rediculous looking helmet which I believe she can be quoted as stating allows her to control the mobile dolls.

Like I said before, if you want to believe that it's possible for software dependant upon user input to operate without any form user input, which requires an interface, then I am at a loss to explain it to you.

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We have to assume that if it wasn't going to work in Sandrock as it does in Wing Zero, then Heero wouldn't have bothered.
One thing I'd say about Heero is that he had a keen sense of military tactics, having someone able to predict and counter the enemy's tactics would be a definite advantage for him. Regardless of how well the program preformed it would be an advantage.

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What use is there is installing something that's not going to work? Secondly, if Heero even thought that the ZERO installed in Sandrock would be weaker than his copy he would have said something to Quatre to calm him down. Something like "You can handle this, I left out....[fill the blank]." Nothing of the sort was said.
This is Heero Yui we're talking about...

A character who repays debts of gratitude by killing the person, who never, to my recollection, uttered a single word of encouragement or condolence throughout the entire series. A character that persisted in saying only the minimum needed words to convey a concept or information and you expect him to stop doing that and make Quatre feel better? We are talking about the same character here, right?

If Heero wanted Quatre to overcome his fear of the system, then not telling him that it wasn't the entire system would be the best method towards achieving that particular end. If he overcomes his fear of the system thinking its the full system, when it's really only the partial system, he'll no longer fear the full system should he ever have to use it. At the same time it reduces the risk of him being overtaken by the system and reverting back to his state while previously using it.

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So I reiterate that if there is no evidence of requisite cockpit equipment and no evidence that ZERO works when "incomplete", a logical assumption is that it works in any suit and it doesn't work unless it is fully installed.
So I reiterate, any system that interfaces with the human/pilot's brain must have the hardware to preform the interface properly or else it is an incomplete system. It is only logical to assume that if such an interface is not present, that a system that interfaces with the brain would not work.

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If you disagree, you disagree, but you cannot give a definative, objective source for the claim that hardware is needed or that the installation is incomplete therefore your point of view is nothing more than your opinion. My post was my opinion as well, however, I don't have to prove that ZERO needs hardware, you do. Why do I have to prove that something doesn't exist when you haven't proven that it does? If you can't prove that it does, then why do you believe that?
Somehow, I would not refer to the webmasters and leaders of a Gundam fansite and forum as 'objective' sources of information. No matter how accurate the information they give, they cannot be considered an objective source.

Indeed you do not need to prove the system the Zero system requires the hardware to preform the brain-machine interface, you're task is more daunting in my opinion. You must prove that such a system running in a closed circuit does not require any device or form of hardware to preform the interface with the subject brain. However, I have common sense and recent technological advances on my side in that no matter what the piece of software, for it to be used by and effect a person it requires a hardware interface just like for the rat brain to operate a PC it requires an electronic latic to interface it to the machine. That without that piece of hardware, no matter how complex the control software, it cannot function.

I accept that you believe what you do, without anything in my opinion that can be considered definitive evidence to support it. I believe what I do, because I believe there is enough reason and evidence to support it while you disagree with it. After that, it's a circular agrument as neither of us is willing to accept the other's view as the accurate one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Esper 28
Think about it, software won't work unless the hardware can support it. Like, say you want an uber new PC game but your computer doesn't have the video card or whatever to run it. Okay, so you obviously can't run the uber cool game. That makes the entire software useless.
Actually, a system with inadequate hardware will run the software however, it will not run the software as it was meant to be run. The movement will be choppy and slow to render but it will still run regardless. It will in a sense run in a manner that is inferior to the intended manner. The issue is, if you don't have a video card in your PC to give you some form of visual interface with the game, can you still play the video game?

I'm done here, take it or leave it but as the current discussion is going nowhere but in circles, there's no point in continuing unless some new information is introduced that can either definitively disprove or endourse beyond reasonable doubt one side or the other.
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Old 2004-12-03, 22:00   Link #38
Sanjuronord
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The Epyon and Wing Zero systems were designed for the sole purpose of getting those "dreamy" pilots to emote some for the ladies... No science beyond marketing...
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Old 2004-12-04, 01:24   Link #39
Scherazade
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr_Paper
Actually, I'm assuming that a specific piece of hardware is required to run the Zero system, namely the brain-machine interface. The cockpit can a be shaped like a triangle and still work with the Zero system if it contains both the interface hardware and the software.

That claim doesn't work for me. You're arguing that function is dependant on aestetic appearance and that is entirely untrue, aestetic differences do not imply functional differences.
Agreed aesthetics and function are two different things. However, since a "hardware component" was never mentioned and certainly not shown, it is unknown what the structure, assuming there is one, would involve. Perhaps there is a certain cockpit configuration that is required.

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I'm not saying the cockpit needs to look a certain way, I am saying that the cockpit would indeed require that certain hardware need be installed in it.
And you still haven't proven that that is the case. Dorothy's helmet means little, but that is not mention in this bit, so I'll address it when I reach that point.

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You've previously argued that Dorthy used the Zero system and indeed she did however, in every instance she is depicted operated the mobile dolls through the system she is wearing a large helmet that would, concievebly, be the brain-machine interface the system requires.
It's quite possible that it's a tactical display. Zechs wore a helmet in Epyon that gave him a tactical view, but it wasn't necessary for him to operate the ZERO system. To be honest, I don't know what Dorothy's helmet was for and neither do you because it's never stated in anywhere in the show. Since there is no official word on what the helmet is for, there is no way to prove that it is essential for the operation of the ZERO system.

Before you ask me to prove that it is definately not connected, that is not required for me to make a point. If you prove a definative connection, then there's no point in arguing. I think you may be missing something from my purpose in arguing you over this. I'm not saying that I am absolutely right, what I am saying is that if you can't prove the existance of what you are claiming exists, why claim it? As I have said previously, I want to have my information as accurate as possible, even if it's not my idea, I'll accept it if it can be shown to not only be plausible but the most likely scenario. You haven't met that requirement in my opinion and that is the only reason I am still arguing with you over it.

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Now, it maybe be the case that because of the large size of the room she is in that interface nodes or devices located in the walls are too far away to work properly, thus the need for the helmet/hat like thing. This would also explain why the pilots, Gundam and otherwise, do not need such helmets because of the confined areas of the Wing Zero and Epyon's cockpits. On the other hand, it shows, somewhat definitively, that an interface is required to operate the system.
How about the instances when Heero is not in the cockpit and ZERO communicates with him. My dvd's are about 200 miles away from me so this is by memory, but after Heero got Wing Zero from Zechs, he was working on it and the suit's eyes flashed. Heero responded to ZERO verbally. What's important is that Heero was not in the cockpit. The episode is somewhere between episode 37 and 41, I believe. Also check episode 44, Heero interacted with ZERO there, but I can't remember if he was in the cockpit or not.

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So to repeat myself, seemingly again, as I can find no reason to believe that the scientists, which never intended for the Zero system to used, would incorporate the specific hardware for the system's use into a machine that they did not design to work with or use the system. Now, yet again I maybe wrong, Heero could have had the scientists create another interface and install it in the Sandrock. However, as there is neither any proof of this occuring or of it not occuring, it can be used to argue either side.
First, you still haven't proven that hardware is required for ZERO to run. ZERO is statistics analysis program that has a man-machine interface. There is nothing touching the pilots. If there was a hardware component, don't you think it would need physical contact with the pilot? Otherwise, what is the hardware component for? Actually, that's something I've been wondering throughout the conversation: what does the hardware do? Assuming it exists.

Second, the Gundams are based on the Wing Zero, actually all suits are based on Zero. Therefore their cockpits would be more or less identical structurally. The only difference from suit to suit that I can see is the fire control system. Heavyarms probably has a different FCS setup than say....Epyon, which has no ranged weapons.

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If you are of the belief that the Zero system is purely software based and does not require any form of hardware to connect it to the pilot's brain, then I am at a loss for explainations.
That's pretty much the size of it. To convince me that there is a hardware part, you have to be able to point to something from the show that is definative, objective proof. Dorothy's helmet is rather subjective since it is never covered what the helmet does. I think it's more detaled tactical display than the non-descript board that's on the wall. You think it's connected to ZERO, which one of us is right? Neither, because neither of us can prove that our opinion is absolute truth.

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Actually my argument did not change, you only focused on the first half of the sentence. How can I argue that the entire system might not have been installed? Follow this:

Everyboby has heard of Winamp, right? Okay, when you download the installation software for the program you are given three options: Basic, Normal and Full install packages. Now regardless of which one of those packages you download, you still recieve the exact same installation file. The only difference is the file's preset defaults, those prechecked option boxes under the install option list. Now given that the install program is the same for the basic and the full versions (as I can download the basic install and still preform the full install), the only difference between the two is which modules or packages one chooses to install. Indeed, this type of install system is used on nearly every peice of software out to day. You're almost always given the option of full install, partial install or custom install. So what reason is there to doubt that the same type of option ability couldn't exist in the Zero install? It is possible that one could install the basic system and only the tactical analysis and prediction modules and the system still fuction, indeed my copy of 3DSMax still works normally despite the fact that I haven't installed any of the export functions, VRML modules or the texture packages.

Modular or Object Orientated programming is highly efficient and allows, if coded correctly, for a program to run even if sections of the program are not present, so why can't such a concept and programs based on this concept exist in the Gundam world? Even the operating system on the computer you are currently using works in this manner... Simply because we don't know if a partial installation will work, doesn't mean that there isn't the possibility that it would work.
That's great, it still doesn't prove that a partial install of the ZERO system will work. Who's to say what part of the program is important and what part is not? The point is, since it cannot be established that a partial ZERO system would work, the only logical conclusion is that the whole system is used. We know that the full installation will work. Remember, Heero didn't create the system, how would he know how to dice it up and install specific sections? Added to the fact that your annalogy of WinAmp is flawed because that's a program for a homecomputer. We are talking about a program that is intended to be used in life or death combat. A program works only when all essential files are loaded.

For example, I installed a game on my computer and no problems occured. When I went to play the game the game stalled and I recieved a system message telling that a specific .dll file is missing so the game cannot run. 1 file out of presumably 1000's prevented a program from running at all, an entertainment program at that.

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My opinion on this matter is not based on random speculation, but rather givens that can be taken our world and applied to any other logically equivilant situation.
The probelm with arguing by analogy is that there is an analogy for just about everything. That said, you're WinAmp anecdote is not very convincing.

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I've already shown that there must be a hardware component,
No, you've shown why you think there is a hardware component. You're evidence is inconclusive at best.

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Dorthy is required to be in a certain room and wear a helmet in order to control the mobile dolls zia the Zero system. If it were the case that such a helmet or interface was not required then she or anyone else could control the system from any point on the space station/base, but that is not the case.
I never said an interface wasn't requied. I said a hardware component hasn't been proven to exist, and you still have not done so. You don't know what Dorothy's helmet does. It could be a tactical display of the variety Zechs uses in Epyon. As for being anywhere and commanding ZERO....while Heero shows that you don't have to be in the seat of the cockpit, you have to be in the general vicinity of a computer that has the ZERO program installed. The basic problem with your case is that it is reliant on things that you cannot prove exist.

Realize that I don't have to prove that they don't exist if you can't prove that they do. The fact that it is never mentioned anywhere is evidence that such hardware does not exist. We are dealing with a fictional world here, the fact that it is a story means that it's boundaries are quite finite. I don't think that there was too much going on that they couldn't have mentioned the structure of the ZERO system, were it to have a hardware component. I think that if the ZERO placed into Sandrock was somewhat less capable or dangerous that Heero would have said something to Quatre about it to ease Quatre's concern. No such thing happened.

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You, yourself are doing the same thing. Simply because the majority agrees with something does not make it fact (the belief that the world was not only the center of the universe but was also flat persisted for over 1600 years because the majority thought it correct).
Again, we're dealing with fiction, that has finite boundaries. It exists from episode 1 to episode 49. And it has manga adaptations and side stories, now, tell me, don't you think they could have addressed the hardware component if it actually existed? That the Earth is not flat is something that can be scientifically proven. You can't prove your case. Also, to correct you, since you must have missed it: I have stated that that is my opinion, take it or leave it. I'm not stating it as fact, however, if you cannot prove it wrong, why should I say that I am? If you think I'm wrong, that's your perogative, but I think that it is very difficult to argue the logic presented, especially when your argument is dependent on something that you can't even prove exists. If that makes me thickheaded, fine, I accept that, but I think my opinion is correct which is why I hold it. I don't care that it's my idea, I care that it seems the most plausible. That's the only reason I am not agreeing with you, you can't prove your logic because your logic is dependent on unprovable assertion.

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I am offering a viable and explainable alternative to the popular opinion that still works and fits within the given information.
No, you're not. You are not able to definatively, objectively prove your case within the information that is given in the show. Your case is based on assertion.

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So far you have only argued that the system is purely software based only on the fact that the show depicts the software being installed.
Exactly, if there were more to it than that it would have been revealed in the shown or in some sort of official statement. I can prove that all Heero did was install software, because that's all we see him doing. You can't prove that specific hardware is required because it isn't shown and it isn't mentioned. You can't even tell me what the "hardware" does since we never see anything connected to the pilots that use ZERO.

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If it were indeed true that the system could operate only off the software then there would be no need for Dorthy to wear the rediculous looking helmet which I believe she can be quoted as stating allows her to control the mobile dolls.
Until you can prove that the helmet is required for ZERO, this point is irrelevant. If it were true that in order for ZERO to operate a helmet is required, how is it possible that Wing Zero pilots don't wear a helmet and still interface with the system? Also, please give me the exact text of what Dorothy says. Since I don't have my dvds with me, I can't verify it for myself for at least 2 weeks. I trust that you will give me an accurate quotation.

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Like I said before, if you want to believe that it's possible for software dependant upon user input to operate without any form user input, which requires an interface, then I am at a loss to explain it to you.
Fair enough. But I pose this question. If your logic cannot be grasped, because it is reliant on unprovable elements, is your case still logical? I don't require the invention of mechanics that are not proven to exist. You can read what I said, watch the show and see exactly how I arrived at my conclusion. The same cannot be said of the case you've presented because it requires me to assign unproven elements to your case to establish the logic.

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One thing I'd say about Heero is that he had a keen sense of military tactics, having someone able to predict and counter the enemy's tactics would be a definite advantage for him. Regardless of how well the program preformed it would be an advantage.
I fail to see the relevance of what you are saying here. What difference does it make if Heero is tactically smart, we're talking about what went into Sandrock, what Quatre used. I don't understand what you are trying to say here.

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This is Heero Yui we're talking about...

A character who repays debts of gratitude by killing the person, who never, to my recollection, uttered a single word of encouragement or condolence throughout the entire series.
Except for the fact that he told Quatre he could handle ZERO. Similarly, despite what Heero says, his actions show he is not coldblooded. Are you forgetting that Heero protected and cared for the person he said he was gonna kill? Selective memory, I see.

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A character that persisted in saying only the minimum needed words to convey a concept or information and you expect him to stop doing that and make Quatre feel better? We are talking about the same character here, right?
You tell me, you obviously haven't done a very good job of analyzing the character. He gives words of encouragment to Relena on more than one occasion. He also is not above using words to persuade someone to do something they don't necessarily want to do. Example one, he tells Quatre that using the ZERO again is a way to repay space for what he did. Example two, he tells Quatre to remain in the Sanc Kingdom to repay the country for aiding in the search for Trowa. So I suppose you aren't talking about the same character as I am, you don't seem to know much about what he actually does and says versus the image he puts up.

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If Heero wanted Quatre to overcome his fear of the system, then not telling him that it wasn't the entire system would be the best method towards achieving that particular end. If he overcomes his fear of the system thinking its the full system, when it's really only the partial system, he'll no longer fear the full system should he ever have to use it. At the same time it reduces the risk of him being overtaken by the system and reverting back to his state while previously using it.
Heero did want Quatre to overcome his fear of ZERO, that's why he used the leverage of saying that if Quatre uses it successfully, it will make up for what he did to space. You are again asserting that the entire system is not being used without proof.

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So I reiterate, any system that interfaces with the human/pilot's brain must have the hardware to preform the interface properly or else it is an incomplete system. It is only logical to assume that if such an interface is not present, that a system that interfaces with the brain would not work.
I reiterate that you have not proven there is a hardware component, nor have you given an explanation for the function of the hardware you haven't proven exists. You have quite a bit on your plate to prove before you can call your point logical. If the average person cannot read your case watch the show and draw the same conclusion or at least see where you arrived at your conclusion, your case is not logical.

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Somehow, I would not refer to the webmasters and leaders of a Gundam fansite and forum as 'objective' sources of information. No matter how accurate the information they give, they cannot be considered an objective source.
Except that Gundam Offical is not a fansite. Also, Keith Rhee is the former webmaster of Gundam Project. It's probably because of that site that Keith is now the webmaster for Gundam Official. Perhaps you weren't aware that Gundam Official is a site licensed by Bandai. Perhaps you were aware that Bandai makes Gundam. By what definition is Gundam Official a fansite?

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Indeed you do not need to prove the system the Zero system requires the hardware to preform the brain-machine interface, you're task is more daunting in my opinion. You must prove that such a system running in a closed circuit does not require any device or form of hardware to preform the interface with the subject brain. However, I have common sense and recent technological advances on my side in that no matter what the piece of software, for it to be used by and effect a person it requires a hardware interface just like for the rat brain to operate a PC it requires an electronic latic to interface it to the machine. That without that piece of hardware, no matter how complex the control software, it cannot function.
Actually, I don't. All I need to do is refer you to the show, which doesn't mention or show any hardware component. You need to prove that ZERO is dependent on a hardware component, if you can't then your case holds no merit. That is the nature of a status quo argument. Also, "common sense" is not a very strong pillar on which to lean as it is very, very subjective.

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I accept that you believe what you do, without anything in my opinion that can be considered definitive evidence to support it. I believe what I do, because I believe there is enough reason and evidence to support it while you disagree with it. After that, it's a circular agrument as neither of us is willing to accept the other's view as the accurate one.
Again, fair enough. But you know that you have no evidence other than your subjective interpretation. You are free to hold your opinion, and I cannot tell you to change, I can tell you that your opinion is not a logical one because it relies on elements that you cannot prove to anyone that is not of the same opinion as you. What I have given is also opinion, but it is based on what can be seen in the series, it does not require the assertive invention of "necessary" equipment. That is something you can't deny.

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Actually, a system with inadequate hardware will run the software however, it will not run the software as it was meant to be run. The movement will be choppy and slow to render but it will still run regardless. It will in a sense run in a manner that is inferior to the intended manner. The issue is, if you don't have a video card in your PC to give you some form of visual interface with the game, can you still play the video game?
Prove that Sandrock's equipment is insufficient. You can't.

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I'm done here, take it or leave it but as the current discussion is going nowhere but in circles, there's no point in continuing unless some new information is introduced that can either definitively disprove or endourse beyond reasonable doubt one side or the other.
As you wish, however, if you can't prove the existence of the hardware, nor can you explain what it does, why do you still believe it exists?

Last edited by Scherazade; 2004-12-04 at 01:40. Reason: correcting some grammar and spelling
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