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Old 2014-09-22, 19:00   Link #321
Sixth
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Originally Posted by Thess View Post
Inaho started with the mistrust and to be hostile when Slaine had helped him a moment ago. It was Inaho's fault, so he paid with his life.

Saazbaum won because he gave Slaine the benefit of the doubt and wormed himself in his favor.
Inaho's mistake was he didn't kill Slaine in episode 7. If he did, no one will stop him from killing Saaz, and the princess won't have to suffer from this whole BS caused by Slain's indecisive.
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Old 2014-09-22, 19:00   Link #322
Thess
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Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
No, Slaine was confused because he never bothered to consider how his actions might appear to someone from Earth, especially if they know what he found out a few episodes before: that there are people trying to kill the princess.
Which should not be in information of Earth forces, remember? That's why Slaine asked if they planned to use her because Inaho's answer about how they think she's dead raise these alarms and Inaho's pseudo confirmation sealed the deal.

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Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
Inaho might have chosen better timing to ask the question, but the question itself made perfect sense from his point of view, as his priority was protecting the princess from anyone who might still be trying to kill her.
Not to Slaine's point of view.

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Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
It's an issue of acting on logic vs. acting on emotion. Someone in Slaine's position should have considered the whole range of scenarios.
Inaho acted on logic? Please. The logical action would have been carried out the interrogation elsewhere or ask information about him, capture him if he was suspected assassin to conduct a real interrogation. He was being rash because of "Seylum-san."

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Originally Posted by noobita View Post
Inaho's mistake was he didn't kill Slaine in episode 7. If he did, no one will stop him from killing Saaz, and the princess won't have to suffer from this whole BS caused by Slain's indecisive.
Inaho thought he killed him, but Slaine's plot armor was bigger than his calculations.
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Old 2014-09-22, 19:05   Link #323
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Originally Posted by Thess View Post
Inaho acted on logic? Please. The logical action would have been carried out the interrogation elsewhere. He was being rash because of "Seylum-san."
It is illogical to think you can carry out an "interrogation elsewhere" with an unknown person who is not even your captive. Inaho wanted to know Slaine's intention first so that he can then figure out what to do next with him.

In fact, he even said that after Slaine answered his question, then he could take him to see the Princess.
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Old 2014-09-22, 19:08   Link #324
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Originally Posted by Thess View Post
Which should not be in information of Earth forces, remember? That's why Slaine asked if they planned to use her because Inaho's answer about how they think she's dead raise these alarms and Inaho's pseudo confirmation sealed the deal.



Not to Slaine's point of view.



Inaho acted on logic? Please. The logical action would have been carried out the interrogation elsewhere. He was being rash because of "Seylum-san."



Inaho thought he killed him, but Slaine's plot armor was bigger than his calculations.
Oh? What proof do you have that Inaho thought he killed Slaine? Because it seemed he just stood there and watched as he crashed, while letting him know that he agreed with Slaine's question on if they were enemies. And where would this elsewhere be? Did you forget up until that point, nobody aside from Inaho and Rayet knew that the princess was alive? He was not in a position where he could ask the captain for an interrogation room, to ascertain Slaine's intentions. He was the one who would have had to vouch for Slaine to get him on board anyways, so he needed to know Slaine's intentions. And you can complain all you want about Inaho provoking Slaine, as it did not turn to violence until Slaine chose to use violence. Up until then they were simply misunderstanding each other.
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Old 2014-09-22, 19:20   Link #325
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Inaho thought he killed him, but Slaine's plot armor was bigger than his calculations
No he didn't. If he really did it, he will make sure that "bat" explode instead of crashing into sea.
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Old 2014-09-22, 19:21   Link #326
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Originally Posted by monster View Post
It is illogical to think you can carry out an "interrogation elsewhere" with an unknown person who is not even your captive. Inaho wanted to know Slaine's intention first so that he can then figure out what to do next with him.

In fact, he even said that after Slaine answered his question, then he could take him to see the Princess.
It's not logical to interrogate a potential enemy when he's in his armed aircraft with access to communication. Slaine didn't "demand" (or rather asked politely) to see the princess until Inaho started with his interrogation, you have the order wrong.

What is logical is tell him to land, walk away from the Skycarrier because he has a pair of question and have Yuki and Inko watching his back while he carried them out, starting with his name and reason why he helped them. He didn't do such a thing, he carried out in a hostile, pushy sloppy manner because he was a hormonal teenager in love with possessive and protective feelings.

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Oh? What proof do you have that Inaho thought he killed Slaine? Because it seemed he just stood there and watched as he crashed, while letting him know that he agreed with Slaine's question on if they were enemies. And where would this elsewhere be?
What proof do you have Inaho thought he didn't kill him? Oh wait, do you mean he would have left an assassin go to speak to his fellow conspirators about their current whereabouts? Because that would make Inaho absolutely stupid, because he was convinced Slaine was an assassin after her life.

Are you claiming he thought he spared him and endangered everyone? For what reason? He was his enemy. Sure, I guess Inko and those other soldiers were also trying to spare him, that's why they all shot his wing! Look, that was Slaine's massive plot armor. It wouldn't make any sense for Inaho to forgive an assassin.

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Originally Posted by Zoks View Post
Did you forget up until that point, nobody aside from Inaho and Rayet knew that the princess was alive? He was not in a position where he could ask the captain for an interrogation room, to ascertain Slaine's intentions. He was the one who would have had to vouch for Slaine to get him on board anyways, so he needed to know Slaine's intentions. And you can complain all you want about Inaho provoking Slaine, as it did not turn to violence until Slaine chose to use violence. Up until then they were simply misunderstanding each other.
Did you forget Slaine didn't watch the show with you to know only Rayet and Inaho knew? To Slaine's view point, she revealed herself days ago.

Inaho cares about the Captain's commands? Because I remember telling her to sod off many times and give others like he owned the place and how he decided to spare Rayet.

And you can complain all you want about Inaho dying but doesn't change the fact he began this misunderstanding and brought his death by pulling a gun on the guy who has captured him.

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No he didn't. If he really did it, he will make sure that "bat" explode instead of crashing into sea.
Inaho's only competent when the plot bends on his favor, unfortunately for him, Slaine's survival skills are even more plot bending. Don't hate the player, hate the game.
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Old 2014-09-22, 19:31   Link #327
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What is logical is tell him to land, walk away from the Skycarrier because he has a pair of question and have Yuki and Inko watching his back while he carried them out, starting with his name and reason why he helped them. He didn't do such a thing, he carried out in a hostile, pushy sloppy manner because he was a hormonal teenager in love with possessive and protective feelings.


What proof do you have Inaho thought he didn't kill him? Oh wait, do you mean he would have left an assassin go to speak to his fellow conspirators about their current whereabouts? Because that would make Inaho absolutely stupid, because he was convinced Slaine was an assassin after her life.
Inaho never assumed Slaine was the sole Martian to think that the princess was alive in the first place, and he came specifically to them because his conspirators already knew their current whereabouts. As in it wouldn't have made a difference overall in the conspiracy. You want proof? He specifically warned the princess after the encounter that there are Martians that knew she was alive. And this is where I say Inaho made his fatal mistake: he should have killed Slaine, but he didn't, most likely because Slaine saved him and he couldn't consciously kill him after that. He had the opportunity to kill him, but instead chose to cripple him.

Quote:
Are you claiming he thought he spared him and endangered everyone? For what reason? He was his enemy. Sure, I guess Inko and those other soldiers were also trying to spare him, that's why they all shot his wing! Look, that was Slaine's massive plot armor. It wouldn't make any sense for Inaho to forgive an assassin.
Don't try to compare Inko shooting Slaine's wing vs. Inaho's shooting Slaine's wing. One was trying to shoot at him from afar with little combat experience, the other was at point-blank range. Inaho had the shot at the cockpit. He did not take it. Think about that.

Quote:
Did you forget Slaine didn't watch the show with you to know only Rayet and Inaho knew? To Slaine's view point, she revealed herself days ago.
What does this have to do with why Inaho could not interrogate Slaine somewhere else? If you are saying Slaine came to the same conclusion you did, then I'll have to point out how ridiculously illogical that is, because the smart thing to do if the Terrans were really exploiting the princess would have been to capture Slaine and take his Sky Carrier.

Quote:
Inaho cares about the Captain's commands? Because I remember telling her to sod off many times and give others like he owned the place and how he decided to spare Rayet.
Inaho did not get in a fight with the captain until after Asseylum's secret was revealed, and that was on a personal level because Magbaredge addressed him in a manner that he disliked. I have no idea what you are talking about with the Rayet comparison, because Inaho did not stop her from being arrested.

Quote:
And you can complain all you want about Inaho dying but doesn't change the fact he began this misunderstanding and brought his death by pulling a gun on the guy who has captured him.
Where am I complaining about Inaho's death? He wanted to die. With the princess's death, Inaho's role in the story was over. I'm complaining about how Slaine got the princess killed because he could not decide whose side he was on.
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Old 2014-09-22, 20:04   Link #328
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Originally Posted by Thess View Post
It's not logical to interrogate a potential enemy when he's in his armed aircraft with access to communication. Slaine didn't "demand" (or rather asked politely) to see the princess until Inaho started with his interrogation, you have the order wrong.

What is logical is tell him to land, walk away from the Skycarrier because he has a pair of question and have Yuki and Inko watching his back while he carried them out, starting with his name and reason why he helped them. He didn't do such a thing, he carried out in a hostile, pushy sloppy manner because he was a hormonal teenager in love with possessive and protective feelings.
No, if Slaine turned out to be an enemy, their current position provided Inaho a chance to fight back, as it ended up happening.
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Old 2014-09-22, 20:27   Link #329
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Originally Posted by Thess View Post
Killing Inaho and possibly Saazbaum (or simply defanging him) is good for the war, the way Inaho wanted to solve the conflict wasn't going to work in light of what we know about Mars.

Asseylum's death was justice for Saazbaum, so I wouldn't really credit Slaine that. It was his mistake in a way, but in the end, it's for the better. The feudal system in Mars must end, so the royal family must perish, I might like Asseylum a bit, but I'm aware her existence was a negative symbolism. It's nasty and horrible for the kid, but he should accept reality and grow up.

She was expendable to the royal family. She had no place to go, literally. Her family and their knights didn't want her back alive.

I assume Slaine killed Inaho for putting her in more danger and not keeping her "dead." Inaho and the rest weren't content with just surviving, hiding out, and just letting things fizzle out.

Slaine's intent was likely to fake her death and leave it at that. Saazbaum didn't want to destroy all terrans, just destroy the defenses so he could conquer Earth.

That only solution in Slaine's mind was probably unconditional surrender by the Earth and the "end" of Asseylum... not necessarily her death.
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Old 2014-09-22, 20:42   Link #330
monster
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Originally Posted by mechalord View Post
Slaine's intent was likely to fake her death and leave it at that.
I don't think so, given that he knows that the Princess wanted peace, presumably without one side conquering the other. I think revealing that the Princess is alive was still his plan considering not every Martian was part of the conspiracy.

And he may still try to do that, with the princess's corpse.
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Old 2014-09-22, 20:54   Link #331
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I find the double-standard that's being applied very interesting.

Generally speaking, for Inaho detractors (who are usually Slaine fans), Inaho needs to show more emotion. (And it's the opposite for Slaine detractors/Inaho fans - Slaine needs to think more logically.)

But when Inaho does act more based on emotion than logic, he is criticised for doing so.

And then, Inaho is expected to think about things from Slaine's pov (e.g. He is supposed to realise that the people planning to kill the princess are doing it because they want to use her death to start a war), whilst it's fine for Slaine not to have thought things out from Inaho's pov....

At least, this is how the discussion comes across to me. Have I missed something?

And btw,
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thess View Post
Inaho acted on logic? Please. The logical action would have been carried out the interrogation elsewhere or ask information about him, capture him if he was suspected assassin to conduct a real interrogation. He was being rash because of "Seylum-san."
I totally agree that Inaho's timing was him acting rashly because of her. Makes him quite human in my book. The reasoning that his point was based on, however, was logical, and it was something that Slaine should also have considered.

In other words, I recognise when Inaho's actions produce non-optimal results. However, that doesn't absolve Slaine at all (e.g. how him saving Saazbaum led to the Asseylum being shot). Personally, for various reasons, I have more problems with Slaine acting predominantly on his emotions - makes him easy to manipulate, as Saazbaum managed to do. I look forward to seeing what will happen to him from here on, but for me, his first challenge will be not to become like a certain character in GSD...

YMMV, and that's fine.

Enjoy the debate, peoples.
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Last edited by karice67; 2014-09-22 at 21:25.
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Old 2014-09-23, 08:52   Link #332
wisteria233
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Originally Posted by monster View Post
I don't think so, given that he knows that the Princess wanted peace, presumably without one side conquering the other. I think revealing that the Princess is alive was still his plan considering not every Martian was part of the conspiracy.

And he may still try to do that, with the princess's corpse.
I think he would have, because Slaine knows that there are people out to kill her and his attempt to contact the emperor failed before. He would probably have her pretend to be dead, until they can find a secure direct and contact to her grandfather. Perhaps he would have told them to go find Femianne's castle, after all she's dead so the castle is now inactive and only Asselyum can get it back up and running.

But we know for sure that he would have been very much against Inaho's plans, because he would be aware of just how dangerous they were.
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Old 2014-09-23, 09:26   Link #333
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Originally Posted by wisteria233 View Post
I think he would have, because Slaine knows that there are people out to kill her and his attempt to contact the emperor failed before. He would probably have her pretend to be dead, until they can find a secure direct and contact to her grandfather. Perhaps he would have told them to go find Femianne's castle, after all she's dead so the castle is now inactive and only Asselyum can get it back up and running.

But we know for sure that he would have been very much against Inaho's plans, because he would be aware of just how dangerous they were.
Actually anyone with aldnoah rights can start up any aldnoah tech once it's been shut down. The issue comes when someone wants to shut down a running, active system. In that case, only the activator or a royal can shut it down. Or it can be shut down by the activator's death. But once the drive is shut down, it's fair game to anyone with activation rights, whether noble or royal. Or also in this case, now Slaine.
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Old 2014-09-23, 09:37   Link #334
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I honestly think that trying to defend either Slaine or Inaho in the events of their first encounter is just silly. The writting of that confrontational scene was beyond horrid, both characters handled the situation poorly and realistically that would almost never happen that way. It just doesn't make sense for things to end up like that at all.

That scene had one purpose and one purpose only to force feed the drama between the two and set up for this crude at best attempt for a season one ending. The writting for this show has a bad tendency to force suspension without proper set up, usually with unrealistic solutions. Just really upset me especially with the tactical approach it had early on for confronting the overwhelming strength of the Martian Kats.

Regardless arguing a situation that was 100% Inaho and Slaine's fault is futile. They both dun fugde up.
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Old 2014-09-23, 09:48   Link #335
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Originally Posted by Irenesharda View Post
Actually anyone with aldnoah rights can start up any aldnoah tech once it's been shut down. The issue comes when someone wants to shut down a running, active system. In that case, only the activator or a royal can shut it down. Or it can be shut down by the activator's death. But once the drive is shut down, it's fair game to anyone with activation rights, whether noble or royal. Or also in this case, now Slaine.
I'm not saying that Slaine might not have done that, in fact its a high possibility that he did go to Femianne's ship, I just mean that it's fair game now. I was talking about what Slaine would have done if he had met the princess earlier. In that case because he knew that contacting the emperor in a direct line was pointless, he might have thought that it would be better to just get the princess back to Mars directly, which is possible with Femianne's landing castle. But then again the story would have ended in half the time, or they could have lead to completely different scenario.
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Old 2014-09-23, 09:58   Link #336
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Here is the thing though. Asseylum required immediate medical help and considering Femianne's landing castle and Crutheo's castle are in Japan (in Femianne's case, not revealed but since she was in Tanegashima, I doubt she flew all the way there from another faraway country). Slaine and Asseylum were in Russia, so I doubt he would spend hours flying back to Japan for Asseylum's medical help.

Of course it is possible he does it himself, but if he doesn't have much expertise in medical aspects, then he needs professionals for sure.
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Old 2014-09-23, 10:17   Link #337
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I honestly think that trying to defend either Slaine or Inaho in the events of their first encounter is just silly. The writting of that confrontational scene was beyond horrid, both characters handled the situation poorly and realistically that would almost never happen that way. It just doesn't make sense for things to end up like that at all.
I disagree. The way they behaved makes sense given their ages. And the true nature of Vers' aggression makes it understandable that neither should be inclined to take things at face value (especially Inaho). That doesn't mean we can't favor one's actions and motives over the other. If anything, this was probably the closest to realism the show has gotten outside of the Emperor not believing Slaine on his word alone. I think people are just too used to the flimsy conflict resolution of other series to appreciate it.
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Old 2014-09-23, 11:06   Link #338
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Here is the thing though. Asseylum required immediate medical help and considering Femianne's landing castle and Crutheo's castle are in Japan (in Femianne's case, not revealed but since she was in Tanegashima, I doubt she flew all the way there from another faraway country). Slaine and Asseylum were in Russia, so I doubt he would spend hours flying back to Japan for Asseylum's medical help.

Of course it is possible he does it himself, but if he doesn't have much expertise in medical aspects, then he needs professionals for sure.
Unless his father taught him how to do surgery, I can't see him being able to take the princess anywhere in time to get her the attention she needed, even if she somehow wasn't instantly killed. The nearest knight would be in Moscow or something, and you don't know if you could trust them. Though the Tharsis special power seems to be speed, so maybe he can make it work? I just doubt it though.
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Old 2014-09-23, 11:23   Link #339
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So I just realized something pretty funny.

Slaine has a knack for getting other people inadvertently killed or somehow people die when they come into contact with him (and it isn't necessarily his fault)

-Didn't know he was dropping Trillram to meet with Rayet's dad, Rayet's dad gets killed

-Cruhteo dies as a result of torturing Slaine

-That random Martian soldier that helps him gets shot

-Decides to save Saazbaum but doesn't know Asseylum is in the next room and she gets shot as a result


No wonder the directors put forth effort to make sure Slaine is always alone, people die around him
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Old 2014-09-23, 14:04   Link #340
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I was unsure whether or not to reply, this might just be dragging it on. Ahh well, here it is.

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Actually, he did show himself pausing to think and plan. He knew he had to go straight to the Emperor but Saazbaum had gotten information about it from Cruhteo, otherwise his plan would have worked.
Completely true, but his plan did fail there. Issue there is that he didn't once stop to think about why his plan did fail there, and he had plenty of time to think on that and his other actions, plus all that Saaz told him and what he plans to do, on Count Saaz's castle.

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In episode 6 and 7, he did plan what he can do and how he can find Asseylum, conducting an interrogation smoothly and shooting the cameras, outrunning an entire castle.
Again, completely true. He spoiled all that though when he found Asseylum, he didn't think through his actions with Inaho. Not answering Inaho's question, pointing guns and firing was a completely stupid thing to do. Even if Inaho intended to use the Princess for evil purposes, Slaine should have been cooperative, join them, and sneak the Princess away when he got the chance too.

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There were times he was overwhelmed with emotions, but those glimpses he was on foot, he had a clear thinking enough to fool Cruhteo.
Count C was an idiot, something he constantly demonstrated by his actions. In any case, getting away with Trillram's murder was a close shave, and Slaine should have known that. The act to kill Trillram itself was an impulse, the excuse he gave (Meteor bombardment killing him off) was an event that Slaine did not know would happen until it happened, and he was lucky that Count C didn't consider the irregularity there (Trillram being killed in a Mech with a Dimensional Barrier).


I won't deny Slaine can think up some good plans/ideas, but he made a larger amount of blunders (for one, add his reaction to Saazbaum during the meal talk to the list), and after being given a large amount of time to reflect while on Saaz castle, he goes ahead and does the stupidest thing to date. Saving the guy who's behind the assassination attempt of the Princess (the person he cares most about), the very person who restarted the war and is doing his best to ensure that the war between Mars and Earth continue (going against his big dream) is so colossally stupid. Worst part is, Saaz has been completely open with Slaine about what he intended to do.


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However, his character is meant to be emotional and overwhelmed by them, but... in the last moments, he got over this, imo. I think that was his scene: shooting Inaho was acting with premeditation on self defense while Inaho does something emotionally reckless and illogical by pointing a weapon at him. How he calmly walks away is an indication of how he's controlled now. His emotions exist, but he isn't controlled by them.
It depends on the interpretation of that event I guess. Emptying a clip on Saaz, then opting out of giving the finishing blow is questionable. And the situation where he ended up killing(?) Inaho was on the point that he didn't want Inaho to touch the Princess. That's a completely emotional reason, no matter how you look at it.

And I might add, the way the Princess interacted with Inaho just before she died(?) right before his eyes, and the way Inaho dragged his body towards the Princess should have at least given Slaine some reconsideration about his assessment about Inaho manipulating the princess if he thought about it at all.

The final nail in the coffin is that it's pretty clear that Slaine has no right to say something such as "don't touch the Princess" considering it's his fault the Princess is dead.

(Just to make it clear the issue is not that he killed(?) Inaho, the issue is that he didn't really think)
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