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Old 2004-10-31, 09:47   Link #61
FRiED
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She was naked ...
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Old 2004-10-31, 14:07   Link #62
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Um... the only reason she went over to ZAFT is because Klueze ran into her in JOSH-A, and decided to take her with him. After that she had no control over where she was or who she was with. Unless she wanted to be killed that is.

Spoiler:


I don't think she deserved to die because of what she did. She was just a poor kid who got caught up in the war, and it drove her mad for a time. But I do think she had to die because of what she represented in the story line. Her part in the story was meant to be a tragedy from the very beginning.
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Old 2004-11-01, 08:22   Link #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xTiNa4eVr
SHE DIED AND DESERVED TO DIE CUZ SHE WAS THE BIGGEST WHORE-SLUT-PIG!! OMG!! she definitly had a fiance and she goes of to DO IT with Kira!! O.O I MEAN COME ON!! what does that tell u. -cof slut cof- yea sooo if you do think thats a good reason fer her to die...she also popped over and betrayed earth by going with ZAFT
Oh, ok. She's a slut because she tries to get revenge for her father and ends up falling in love in the process, as well as being manipulated by Creuset and then actually helping the EA more than anyone by delivering the N-Jammer Canceller technology?

Oh, logic!
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Old 2004-11-01, 09:09   Link #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keppers
Spoiler:
But since the nukes the EA made didn't come in handy at all, her action actually helped benefit much of mankind after the war by allowing the EA to bypass the N-Jammers and restore nuclear power to much of the world... See, she's done a much great good for humanity than people give her credit for... (of course, unless the EA decides to break the treaty and use their nukes again in Destiny...)
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Old 2004-11-01, 10:34   Link #65
Derelict
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If another war breaks out, what's stopping EA from using their nukes again? I don't believe giving N-Jammer technology was particularly 'good' for humanity.

Nuclear technology has always been highly dangerous, whether in reality or fiction.
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Old 2004-11-01, 10:38   Link #66
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Originally Posted by Derelict
If another war breaks out, what's stopping EA from using their nukes again? I don't believe giving N-Jammer technology was particularly 'good' for humanity.
Its good for humanity when 80% of the Earth's energy supply is nuclear energy. The N-Jammers caused a severe energy crisis which led to worldwide famine and depression and millions starving to death. So a restoration of that power helped billions of people. If that's not helping humanity, I don't know what is.
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Old 2004-11-01, 10:41   Link #67
Derelict
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Originally Posted by brightman
Its good for humanity when 80% of the Earth's energy supply is nuclear energy. The N-Jammers caused worldwide famine and depression and led to millions starving to death. So a restoration of that power helped billions of people. If that's not helping humanity, I don't know what is.
So, you'd rather people be not starving but using nuclear technology in their wars to destroy those innocents that have otherwise lived from using the very thing in a more sensible way?

Tough pick.
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Old 2004-11-01, 10:44   Link #68
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Originally Posted by Derelict
So, you'd rather people be not starving but using nuclear technology in their wars to destroy those innocents that have otherwise lived from using the very thing in a more sensible way?

Tough pick.
Hey, at least for two years there was peace and no usage of nuclear weapons and no one starving. Good enough, right?

Besides, there's a much more effective way to kill innocents than nukes as seen with the GENESIS and the upcoming Junius 7 drop. So its not like the nukes would change the way wars are fought.
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Old 2004-11-01, 10:47   Link #69
Derelict
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brightman
Hey, at least for two years there was peace and no usage of nuclear weapons and no one starving. Good enough, right?

Besides, there's a much more effective way to kill innocents than nukes as seen with the GENESIS and the upcoming Junius 7 drop. So its not like the nukes would change the way wars are fought.
You seem to forget 'Valentine of Blood'. At least pertaining to SEED, none of this bloodshed would have happened if it weren't for nuclear technology. But then again, Kira wouldn't have gotten to be a hero and go through all of that trauma if that didn't happen.
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Old 2004-11-01, 10:51   Link #70
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Originally Posted by Derelict
You seem to forget 'Valentine of Blood'. At least pertaining to SEED, none of this bloodshed would have happened if it weren't for nuclear technology. But then again, Kira wouldn't have gotten to be a hero and go through all of that trauma if that didn't happen.
Bloody Valentine was just "lit the fire to the keg (or whatever that allegory is). Similar to the assassination of the Archduke of Austria leading to WWI. The tensions were already built up to an all time high, so that attack triggered the war. Any other catastrophic event would have done the same.
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Old 2004-11-01, 11:39   Link #71
dreamless
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well the nukes are more or less just a plot device. In the original Gundam they used nerve gas and killed millions of people. In Gundam X they dropped space colony which wiped out over 90% of Earth population. nukes in SEED is not really that special, just a kind of WoMD which the director decided to use to kill a lot of people.

Besides, it's pretty clear that in CE nuclear power is used quite widely already, not much of a big fuss as now (in UC nuclear fusion is the standard energy source already)
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Old 2004-11-01, 12:39   Link #72
Derelict
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Originally Posted by dreamless
well the nukes are more or less just a plot device. In the original Gundam they used nerve gas and killed millions of people. In Gundam X they dropped space colony which wiped out over 90% of Earth population. nukes in SEED is not really that special, just a kind of WoMD which the director decided to use to kill a lot of people.

Besides, it's pretty clear that in CE nuclear power is used quite widely already, not much of a big fuss as now (in UC nuclear fusion is the standard energy source already)
A plot device? Well, it may seem viable to assume that, but these nuclear weapons are unique in the sense that it is most likely one of the more sensible ways to destroy a colony in space-to-space combat.
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Old 2004-11-01, 12:49   Link #73
dreamless
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well, it's quite sensible to use nerve gas to kill all the people in an entire colony too. And those PLANT satellites are not that hard to destroy anyway, Heliopolis got totally destroyed with one strike at the central axis.

The nukes are just something like those N2 mines in EVA, a very strong weapon, nothing more, so don't read too much into it. I don't think any Gundam series try to convey any anti-nuclear sentiments. If anything, they just show that nuclear power is the power source of the future and will be widely used to benefit humanity and for space exploration in the future.
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Old 2004-11-01, 12:53   Link #74
Derelict
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Originally Posted by dreamless
well, it's quite sensible to use nerve gas to kill all the people in an entire colony too. And those PLANT satellites are not that hard to destroy anyway, Heliopolis got totally destroyed with one strike at the central axis.

The nukes are just something like those N2 mines in EVA, a very strong weapon, nothing more, so don't read too much into it. I don't think any Gundam series try to convey any anti-nuclear sentiments. If anything, they just show that nuclear power is the power source of the future and will be widely used to benefit humanity and for space exploration in the future.
A ficticious power source of the future, you mean. Granted, they could have just used something fictional like N2 Mines, using something palpable such as nuclear technology could be misleading, from watching GW I think there was an underlying message about war, more so than any other Gundam series.
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Old 2004-11-01, 13:04   Link #75
dreamless
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Err... I won't call Gundam Wing having an "underlying message" about war, Gundam Wing is practically all about war, despite how childish its ideas and politics may be. But then all UC Gundam series are about war anyway. It seems only when it comes to AU that some Gundam series deviates its theme from war. CE Gundam series returns to the topic of war, not surprising since it's intended to "return to the root" of UC series.

Anyway, I don't think there's anything anti-nuclear about it, after all both Freedom and Justice use nuclear power and are called by Lacus as the power necessary for one's ideals. SEED showed the EA using nuclear bombs to attack PLANT, but it also showed that nuclear power being widely used and Freedom and Justice powered by nuclear power. So I'd say nuclear power is just a "power" in SEED, it doesn't show anything pro-nuclear or anti-nuclear.
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Old 2004-11-01, 13:11   Link #76
kj1980
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Fllay = Mihal

Those who equated Fllay with Lala Sun...you're still not there yet.

Or, if I get more maniacal, Fllay's scene reminds me of Ideon.
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Old 2004-11-01, 13:16   Link #77
dreamless
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Fllay's scene = Ideon? do you mean Fllay's "ghost scene" = ending scene of Ideon?

Fllay still has a long way to go to reach Katejina
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Old 2004-11-01, 13:44   Link #78
Derelict
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dreamless
Err... I won't call Gundam Wing having an "underlying message" about war, Gundam Wing is practically all about war, despite how childish its ideas and politics may be. But then all UC Gundam series are about war anyway. It seems only when it comes to AU that some Gundam series deviates its theme from war. CE Gundam series returns to the topic of war, not surprising since it's intended to "return to the root" of UC series.

Anyway, I don't think there's anything anti-nuclear about it, after all both Freedom and Justice use nuclear power and are called by Lacus as the power necessary for one's ideals. SEED showed the EA using nuclear bombs to attack PLANT, but it also showed that nuclear power being widely used and Freedom and Justice powered by nuclear power. So I'd say nuclear power is just a "power" in SEED, it doesn't show anything pro-nuclear or anti-nuclear.
Why add all of the dialogue GW had if it didn't have an underlying meaning about war? The episodes when the Zero System was first introduced was also telling, let's not confuse the issue about GW, was the issue about war complicated when being used in it? No. Was it used for compelling sequences of events? Yes.
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Old 2004-11-01, 14:23   Link #79
dreamless
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No, you obviously read my post wrong, I didn't say that GW has no message about war, but I don't think it's anything called "underlying" message, I'd say it's right under the spotlight, actually the very main theme of GW is all about war.

Anyway I don't think they have any "underlying message", or actually any message, underlying or not, about nuclear power in SEED. IF you think the use of nuclear bombs instead of some "fictional weapons" could be "misleading" for an anti-nuclear message, then doesn't it mean that the use the nuclear powers on Earth widely in CE and in Freedom and Justice instead of some "fictional power sources" could be "misleading" for a pro-nuclear message? I just don't think SEED has any pro-nuclear or anti-nuclear message anyway.
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Old 2004-11-01, 14:36   Link #80
Derelict
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Originally Posted by dreamless
No, you obviously read my post wrong, I didn't say that GW has no message about war, but I don't think it's anything called "underlying" message, I'd say it's right under the spotlight, actually the very main theme of GW is all about war.

Anyway I don't think they have any "underlying message", or actually any message, underlying or not, about nuclear power in SEED. IF you think the use of nuclear bombs instead of some "fictional weapons" could be "misleading" for an anti-nuclear message, then doesn't it mean that the use the nuclear powers on Earth widely in CE and in Freedom and Justice instead of some "fictional power sources" could be "misleading" for a pro-nuclear message? I just don't think SEED has any pro-nuclear or anti-nuclear message anyway.
It could be just a 'power' to drive the plot, you could very well be right. Maybe I'm just hoping that Destiny MIGHT make nuclear technology more than just 'power' to the plot.

One of the reasons why I liked GW is because of how they explore the politics of war with the main character being Heero, someone that never knew anything but how to accomplish his mission. I think they made it so long inorder to emphasize just how much war can change people, that is what I thought the 'message' was, underlying or not.
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